Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Saxman on July 21, 2008, 10:42:39 PM
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This is a situation I've seen and been in once or twice, and was curious on what other people's opinions are for their course of action.
Scenario:
You're cruising along at altitude on the way to a fight, when suddenly you see below you a friendly being chased by two bad guys. The enemy fighters are outside of gun range but closing slowly, and are flying as a wing-pair (within D100-200 of each other), with one leading and the other trailing behind and off to one side to keep his own line of fire clear. There are no other cons in the vicinity, friendly or hostile. Let's say you're within a friendly dar circle and you can confirm there's no enemy lurking outside visual range. You happen to be flying without tracers turned on.
You radio the friendly you see him, and to continue pulling the bad guys out straight, then after neatly maneuvering for position roll in (so no, this is NOT a "Do I help my buddy?" morality call). You carefully manage your speed to ensure you close into gun range before the enemy can do the same to your friend, without overtaking them too quickly to get a good shot. You settle in behind them and watch the range counter click down. They're completely fixated and don't see you coming. Your finger is on the trigger and the counter on the trailing bandit hits your convergence range, however you still have a clear shot at BOTH targets.
Question:
Which do you shoot first?
A) Trailing Con - If you hit him solid enough and even get a pilot kill you may be able to knock him out before he can even warn his lead plane that he's been hit. You'll also have more time to take aim on the leader. The downside is, if the leader has been able to close into gun range on your friendly you may not have time to hit him before he can open up on his own target.
B) Leading Con - He's closest to the friendly and in the best position to fire. Additionally, if the wingman has his leader in view you'd have the twisted satisfaction of scaring the HELL out of him as his boss suddenly bursts into flames and making him realize that they've just screwed up very, VERY badly. However you would then have less time to correct your aim for the trailing bandit, and he may be able to break, out of your line of fire and make you work a little harder for the second kill.
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I go for the most immediate threat to my countryman. But that's me
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Trailing con.
If they're 100-200 yards away from each other, both will have guns within short order of each other. If you can kill the trailing con fast enough and cleanly enough, you then have an easy kill on the lead- if not, then the lead will break (most likely), saving the friendly.
My usual reaction, though, would be to get excited and spray all over the place, missing both cons and hitting them just enough to get them to break. :lol
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Radio the Friendly being chased, ask him how far back the 1st Enemy is.if he is outside of the 1k barrier, then target the 2nd Bogey.........then the 1st.......if the Friendly says the 1st Enemy is closing with in 800 go for the major threat 1st......then convert it back in your favor of 2 on 1........
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The trailing con but in this game it doesnt matter because he will still warn his buddy.
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trailing con
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Trailing con, unless it is apparent that your buddy will be dead within seconds without immediate intervention.
If you hit the trailing con first. you'll still have a good line on the leading con. Other way around and the trailing con will most likely immediately start manuevering to escape or bring his guns onto you.
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I always go for the leading con and get killed by the trailing one. So I may rethink this before too long :lol
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Nothing new here:
If the bogeys are chasing a squaddie, I almost always go for the lead (eg. closest to achieving a firing solution on my squaddie). This 'should' cause the lead bogey to break, saving my bud and allowing us to even up 2v2.
Against an unknown friendly:
Call and ask as TC said. If no response, use judgement. If the lead is 'in my judgement' within 400-600 yards of the friendly, go for the lead and try to get his attention. If he's back 600+ or the friendly calls him back enough, I'll hit the trailer, therefore making it a 2v1.
It's a tough call. But, ultimately, I generally go for saving the friendly and missing the easy kill unless there's some circumstance that keeps me from doing so...
That being said, I usually blow the kill either way.
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Trailing con always. Pop him and hope for the leader before he can say anything on squad channel.
Same deal with a conga line. Pick the trailer first then sweep the line (depending on altitudes of course).
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Trailer.
Tactically correct and has a psychological effect on the leader. Even if you miss.
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Shoot the friendly...it sounds too dangerous to hang around there anyways.
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Because you said this:
you....ensure you close into gun range before the enemy can do the same to your friend
The obvious and only choice is to shoot the plane with the higher top end speed if one is not clearly faster(currently) than the other.
Anyone who answered with other the what I've posted must not have read the scenario thoroughly.
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The trailer for a few reasons;
1. I don't want my huge P38 looming in front of the trailers guns when I go for the lead.
2. If I kill the lead, the trailer is still threatening my buddy anyway. Taking the time to get lined up again can be too long.
3. The trailer is usually the slower of the 2 aircraft, if I can kill the slower (ie better turning aircraft) the my buddy can break hard and evade the lead anyway. Then again, all my friends fly P38s anyway.
If the lead is 2k in front of the trailer, only then will I go for the lead.
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The trailer for a few reasons;
1. I don't want my huge P38 looming in front of the trailers guns when I go for the lead.
2. If I kill the lead, the trailer is still threatening my buddy anyway. Taking the time to get lined up again can be too long.
3. The trailer is usually the slower of the 2 aircraft, if I can kill the slower (ie better turning aircraft) the my buddy can break hard and evade the lead anyway. Then again, all my friends fly P38s anyway.
If the lead is 2k in front of the trailer, only then will I go for the lead.
Del has lots of practice from having encoutered this scenario many many times clearing many bad guys off my 38G. Trust him on this one :)
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Shoot the friendly...it sounds too dangerous to hang around there anyways.
:rofl
That's standard GIAP procedure for FSO!
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In the furball lake, I was in a 1C and flew over 5 bud guys chasing a friendly. Rolled over and started with the trailing con. Do you think anyone warned any body or that anyone tried to break after tracers started flying all around them? 4 went down and the fifth got hurt.
The point is, you have to go for the one closest to your body because in this game all that matters is the one kill. People will not break off in fear that the other friendly will get 'their' kill :rofl
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This is a situation I've seen and been in once or twice, and was curious on what other people's opinions are for their course of action.
Scenario:
You're cruising along at altitude on the way to a fight, when suddenly you see below you a friendly being chased by two bad guys. The enemy fighters are outside of gun range but closing slowly, and are flying as a wing-pair (within D100-200 of each other), with one leading and the other trailing behind and off to one side to keep his own line of fire clear. There are no other cons in the vicinity, friendly or hostile. Let's say you're within a friendly dar circle and you can confirm there's no enemy lurking outside visual range. You happen to be flying without tracers turned on.
You radio the friendly you see him, and to continue pulling the bad guys out straight, then after neatly maneuvering for position roll in (so no, this is NOT a "Do I help my buddy?" morality call). You carefully manage your speed to ensure you close into gun range before the enemy can do the same to your friend, without overtaking them too quickly to get a good shot. You settle in behind them and watch the range counter click down. They're completely fixated and don't see you coming. Your finger is on the trigger and the counter on the trailing bandit hits your convergence range, however you still have a clear shot at BOTH targets.
Question:
Which do you shoot first?
A) Trailing Con - If you hit him solid enough and even get a pilot kill you may be able to knock him out before he can even warn his lead plane that he's been hit. You'll also have more time to take aim on the leader. The downside is, if the leader has been able to close into gun range on your friendly you may not have time to hit him before he can open up on his own target.
B) Leading Con - He's closest to the friendly and in the best position to fire. Additionally, if the wingman has his leader in view you'd have the twisted satisfaction of scaring the HELL out of him as his boss suddenly bursts into flames and making him realize that they've just screwed up very, VERY badly. However you would then have less time to correct your aim for the trailing bandit, and he may be able to break, out of your line of fire and make you work a little harder for the second kill.
i go for the wingman first, as he'll be missing parts efore he can do anything...and he'll be busy tryng to get out of my guns,so he won't take the time to warn the flight lead. i fly with tracers on, and most likely the flight lead will see them, and either turn off target or his intended victem will now turn back into the fight.
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Question:
Which do you shoot first?
A) Trailing Con - If you hit him solid enough and even get a pilot kill you may be able to knock him out before he can even warn his lead plane that he's been hit. You'll also have more time to take aim on the leader. The downside is, if the leader has been able to close into gun range on your friendly you may not have time to hit him before he can open up on his own target.
B) Leading Con - He's closest to the friendly and in the best position to fire. Additionally, if the wingman has his leader in view you'd have the twisted satisfaction of scaring the HELL out of him as his boss suddenly bursts into flames and making him realize that they've just screwed up very, VERY badly. However you would then have less time to correct your aim for the trailing bandit, and he may be able to break, out of your line of fire and make you work a little harder for the second kill.
Tell friendly to break hard and enter into a nice little 2v2 ;)
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Your finger is on the trigger and the counter on the trailing bandit hits your convergence range, however you still have a clear shot at BOTH targets.
Question:
Which do you shoot first?
You answered your own question. The trailing bandit is in your convergence range...kill him. Stay in contact with your countryman to let him know your intentions. As you open up on the trailing con, radio for your countryman to break whichever way will pull the con leader into a favorable guns solution for you, and kill him too. Then follow your countryman to the nearest O'Club and have him buy you a tasty beverage of your choice for pulling his bacon out of the fire.
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I try to factor in several variables, but my gut reaction based on the information provided in the scenario above would be to shoot the trailer first (and knowing my aim probably miss horribly). A couple factors that I could potentially change that decision, but that would be my likely course of action based on the information at hand. Bypassing the wing to shoot the lead would put my right in front of his guns, even with a substantial speed advantage would give likely give him a shot.
Shoot the wing and the lead breaks means you've still accomplished what you set out to do, clear the friendly. Shoot the wing and the leader does nothing still leaves you with a chance to score a double play if you set up the right angle on your gunnery pass.
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Han Solo shot the wingman in Star Wars and look how that turned out! You should check it out, good movie.
If the guys are that close to one another you can have them both down in a couple seconds. Just hold that trigger down.
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Interesting perspectives. Personally, when I've been in the situation I've gone for the wing just because he's usually the cleanest shot to line up.
However I noticed several of you assumed that bypassing the wingman to fire on the lead would put you in the wingman's sights. May want to review your situational awareness.
As stated above: the wingman and lead are flying rather close together (between D100-200 of each other, however there's separation both front to back AND side to side: The wingman's line of fire is clear so this is not a conga line, meaning healthy left/right separation so his guns are clear if he has a shot. The trailer may be no more than 50-100 yards back of his leader, possibly even as little as 25). Unless your convergence is set absurdly short, (100yds) even if you wait a moment for the lead to pull into convergence both contacts will still be ahead of you.
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Interesting perspectives. Personally, when I've been in the situation I've gone for the wing just because he's usually the cleanest shot to line up.
However I noticed several of you assumed that bypassing the wingman to fire on the lead would put you in the wingman's sights. May want to review your situational awareness.
As stated above: the wingman and lead are flying rather close together (between D100-200 of each other, however there's separation both front to back AND side to side: The wingman's line of fire is clear so this is not a conga line, meaning healthy left/right separation so his guns are clear if he has a shot. The trailer may be no more than 50-100 yards back of his leader, possibly even as little as 25). Unless your convergence is set absurdly short, (100yds) even if you wait a moment for the lead to pull into convergence both contacts will still be ahead of you.
unless i intrepreted it wrong, i would also be in guns range before they were in range of the friendly. for this reason, again, i go for the guy closer to me first. if the other guy is so intent on the friendly con, then i go for him. usually, i see the lead guy pull up, or turn opposite of where his wingman was. if he does that, i just climb back up and see what he does........but the friendly is clear either way.....
it was actually a very good question, and very interesting to read the replies......WTG
<<S>>
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Line up in such a fashion that if you do not kill outright, the wingman, and he happens to break, you can still be at angles to make a good shot on the wing lead without blowing your own E.
Chances are the guy getting chased has already traded all his E for speed, and helping clear him just might be the little bit that turns the tables.
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Interesting perspectives. Personally, when I've been in the situation I've gone for the wing just because he's usually the cleanest shot to line up.
However I noticed several of you assumed that bypassing the wingman to fire on the lead would put you in the wingman's sights. May want to review your situational awareness.
As stated above: the wingman and lead are flying rather close together (between D100-200 of each other, however there's separation both front to back AND side to side:
Yup, and thus you fire on the plane capable of going the fastest, unless there is a current disparity in the speeds.
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Typically I would drop on the trailing guy.
9 times out of 10, once you fire at the trailing guy, he will scream out to his buddy and both will break off the attack.
When firing at the trailing guy, go for a non-maneuverable kill ... If you kill him fine ... if not, then carry on to the lead guy.
If you don't kill the trailing guy and he breaks off ... that's fine too ... carry on to the lead guy until you kill him or he breaks.
Now ... hopefully the guy you just saved, will stick around and help with any of remaining bad guys ... if there are any.
Can't tell you how many times this scenario has happened and the guy I just saved continues on his run for home.
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What if the 'friendly' is someone who has picked a couple of kills from you recently or has picked you several times when he was playing for another country? :t
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Tail end charlie. Target fixation is a dirty dirty thang....I like to fire some short bursts even before convergence to try to break the leader. Tracers have quite an effect unless the guy is totally TF. Obviously try to be like Delirium and kill them both if you can... along with half their air force too :)
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What if the 'friendly' is someone who has picked a couple of kills from you recently or has picked you several times when he was playing for another country? :t
i can only think of 2 that i wouldn't help.....one's a lw and mw flyer, and the other mostly hangs in ew......... :noid
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same here but I've been known to fly the other way when I saw either of them in trouble
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Some really good answers in this thread, and some not so good ones as well.
Rule: Always engage the nearest enemy first.
Why?
You would have to get past him to get to the lead bandit anyway. Besides, even if you don't score heavily, he will break turn (unless he's an idiot). Either way, he's out of the fight for the time being.
Last week this same scenario presented itself. I was flying a P-51D, and had expended most of my ammo on a pair of B-17s and an earlier Spitfire. On my way to rearm, I spot a friendly Tiffie being pursued by a couple of F4Us (turned out to be F4U-4s). I'm at 8k and these guys are down near the deck. I only have ammo remaining in two inner-most guns, but enough to be a threat. I unload and head down behind the nearest f4U. Between 600 and 800 yards, I fire scoring some hits. This guys breaks hard right. I blow by at 450 mph.
I close on the other Corsair. I open fire at about the same range, again scoring some hits. This one is a bit stubborn and it takes a second short burst to convince him to evade. He also breaks hard right. I take the Mustang vertical, zooming up about 2k above the -4s and then spiral down, dropping in on one of them. He runs, doing aileron rolls. I fired the last of my ammo, taking off a flap and getting his oil. I call Winchester on the radio, angle left, unload and accelerate away while the second F4U does the old spray and pray at me from 1k out. Meanwhile, the fleeing Typhoon has reversed and he clobbers the F4U-4 that was shooting at me. I got an assist. About two minutes later, I get a second assist. If I had a fully battery of guns, both of these guys would have gone down. As it was, I was satisfied to help a teammate.
Always attack the nearest enemy.... As Dedalos pointed out, you can work your way forward, especially if the rear most is shot down or doesn't think to warn the leader.
My regards,
Widewing
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Fly very close to the trailer, roll my wings and scream "TRATATATATATATA" over range vox.
Then peal away. :rofl
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Trailing con always. Pop him and hope for the leader before he can say anything on squad channel.
Same deal with a conga line. Pick the trailer first then sweep the line (depending on altitudes of course).
Exactly what I do, and did last night.
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Fly very close to the trailer, roll my wings and scream "TRATATATATATATA" over range vox.
Then peal away. :rofl
And now for my windex and paper towel to clean Red Seal off the monitor :lol :lol
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In real life, the wingman is the safe bet. Make him vanish and then move on to the leader to do the same. The wingman would be too busy trying to save his own bacon to even think of keying up and warning anyone while bullets are slicing through his plane. But, in this game people can key up anytime, falling in flames, in a parachute or even after death in a tower :rolleyes:.
With that in mind........
If they were in a good formation and flying the same type acft, I would take out the leader. The leader is usually the more skilled one with higher rank and poses the biggest threat. The leftover wingman would surely break but now it becomes 2 of you on one of him....the less skilled of the two and less likely to handle 2 cons at once compared to his leader.
The wingman would likely react in one of two ways: 1. Nervous that his leader just went *poof* and left him with 2 pissed off cons looking to do him the same to him and try to run away. 2. Get brave and try to avenge and impress his dead leader and do something stupid.
My theory anyway. What would really happen is I would fire too high over the leader, hit my countryman and killshoot my own wing off and then the wingman would follow my wreckage down blasting away at it while his leader shouts at him to form back up and stop trying to steal his proxy. :D
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I would come in hot and get them both to turn away from your bud and then sandwich them. Your going to still in all likely hood have alt which is stored E. Heck you may damage one or get a kill. Then you both can work them.