Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: angelsandair on July 22, 2008, 09:52:45 PM
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Anybody ever seen those commercials where they are trying to sell you some 1$$ coin for 50$$? I was watching one of those and they were talking about how "rare" it was and then they mentioned something that caught my ear. (as I rarely listen to this sort of stuff.) They mentioned that there wont be any more "Under God" in our pennies, quarters... etc. Now, last I heard, the majority for "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was something like 85%, so why are we giving in to this small 15%? :confused: :huh
I dont watch the news too much anymore and I really hope that what this stupid commercial said was either not true or meaning something else.... It's wierd what I can find out and see just by watching a commercial. :confused:
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Personally I really don't care one way or the other, I am an atheist and it really doesn't bother me that it says "Under God" or "In god we trust", but it is kinda a double standard when it comes to the whole separation of church & state.
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Under God wouldn't bother me, again as an Atheist, if it wasn't added in the 50's. It doesn't even really bother me any more than the thought that it's stupid and hypocritical that it was added.
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Under God wouldn't bother me, again as an Atheist, if it wasn't added in the 50's. It doesn't even really bother me any more than the thought that it's stupid and hypocritical that it was added.
I think Under God has been in the U.S. since the Declaration of Independance was signed. I dont think that the small majority should be the deciding factor on that though. Same thing with Under God in our pledge of allegiance.
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Sorry, I should have specified. I was referring to the Pledge of Allegiance specifically.
Original Pledge, written in 1892-
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America."
"The Knights of Columbus in New York City felt that the pledge was incomplete without any reference to a deity. Appealing to the authority of Abraham Lincoln, the Knights felt that the words "under God" which were from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address were most appropriate to add to the Pledge. In New York City on April 22, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend their recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by addition of the words "under God" after the words "one nation." In the following two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide. On August 21, 1952, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus at its annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that the change be made universal and copies of this resolution were sent to the President, the Vice President (as Presiding Officer of the Senate) and the Speaker of the House of Representatives."
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Sorry, I should have specified. I was referring to the Pledge of Allegiance specifically.
Original Pledge, written in 1892-
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America."
"The Knights of Columbus in New York City felt that the pledge was incomplete without any reference to a deity. Appealing to the authority of Abraham Lincoln, the Knights felt that the words "under God" which were from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address were most appropriate to add to the Pledge. In New York City on April 22, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend their recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by addition of the words "under God" after the words "one nation." In the following two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide. On August 21, 1952, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus at its annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that the change be made universal and copies of this resolution were sent to the President, the Vice President (as Presiding Officer of the Senate) and the Speaker of the House of Representatives."
So, this makes it okay to take it out?
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The fact that it was added later, contradicting the separation of church and state?
Certainly.
But, again, it's not that big a deal IMO and most people get way too worked up about it.
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The fact that it was added later, contradicting the separation of church and state?
Certainly.
Oh okay. :aok
But still, would you like to see it gone? I just find it very odd that the minority who want it gone are beating the majority who either have no problem with it or want it to stay.
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But still, would you like to see it gone? I just find it very odd that the minority who want it gone are beating the majority who either have no problem with it or want it to stay.
I wish it was that whoever is pushing it just would like to take it out, as it's the right thing to do- since it is contradicting the separation of church and state- but the sad reality is that it's probably just a group of liberal politicians trying to appeal to the minority.
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but the sad reality is that it's probably just a group of liberal politicians trying to appeal to the minority.
that's how most people see it now. I've never heard of anyone truely having a problem with it.
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Which God would that be?
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oh my god
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As far as "Under God" being in the pledge of allegiance I do think it should be removed, it's not going to hurt anyone to have it taken out. Take me, when I was in school I never liked saying the pledge just because of that phrase as I was atheist, removing the phrase would just solve the problem, just because a majority don't mind it being in it does that mean we just say screw the minority. I mean I don't care about it enough that I'm gonna go out and do anything about it, I just see the side of having it taken out.
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Which God would that be?
The Catholic God obviously. Seeing as it was the Knights of Columbus who managed to wangle 'under God' into the oath. It's amazing how recently it happened. It's all very well criticising supposed liberals for trying to remove the term. But what of the right wing religious zealots who are trying the undermine the US constitution by constantly trying to bring religion into politics. I grew up in a country that was dominated by one church which had a baleful influence over politicians. Believe me, Americans, you wouldn't like it much. If you want another example, look to Iran.
It's a slippery slope.
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Maybe we should change it to "under a God". That would cover all bases. Somehow I think that would'nt fly.
I was taught that America was a melting pot. Apparently some people think there should only be one mold used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJ4udW41Ns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJ4udW41Ns)
My grandmother came from Russia
A satchel on her knee,
My grandfather had his father's cap
He brought from Italy.
They'd heard about a country
Where life might let them win,
They paid the fare to America
And there they melted in.
Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.
America was founded by the English,
But also by the Germans, Dutch, and French.
The principle still sticks;
Our heritage is mixed.
So any kid could be the president.
You simply melt right in,
It doesn't matter what your skin.
It doesn't matter where you're from,
Or your religion, you jump right in
To the great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.
Ooh, what a stew, red, white, and blue.
America was the New World
And Europe was the Old.
America was the land of hope,
Or so the legend told.
On steamboats by the millions,
In search of honest pay,
Those 19th-century immigrants sailed
To reach the U.S.A.
Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot
The great American melting pot.
What good ingredients,
Liberty and immigrants.
They brought the country's customs,
Their language and their ways.
They filled the factories, tilled the soil,
Helped build the U.S.A.
Go on and ask your grandma,
Hear what she has to tell
How great to be an American
And something else as well.
Lovely Lady Liberty
With her book of recipes
And the finest one she's got
Is the great American melting pot
The great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.
The great American melting pot.
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My personal opinion (based on not beeing religious i suppose) is that religion and money should be separated if you know what i mean. So I would remove any reference to religion or spirituality on money.
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My personal opinion (based on not beeing religious i suppose) is that religion and money should be separated if you know what i mean. So I would remove any reference to religion or spirituality on money.
Except it's not your money so you don't get a say in it. :devil
J/K Nilsen :D
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I actually have 14 of them capitalist dollars in hard cash! Its in one dollar notes and was bought as an investment 10 years ago. Its my nest egg :aok
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I actually have 14 of them capitalist dollars in hard cash! Its in one dollar notes and was bought as an investment 10 years ago. Its my nest egg :aok
Well your nest egg is shrinking fast, maybe thats why they're not trusting god on their currency anymore :D
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I actually have 14 of them capitalist dollars in hard cash! Its in one dollar notes and was bought as an investment 10 years ago. Its my nest egg :aok
Nils, you would be better off investing in pre-1964 U.S. coins. At least they were made with silver.
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Nils, you would be better off investing in pre-1964 U.S. coins. At least they were made with silver.
nonono.. i have faith in my 14 dollars! I think they cost me around 10 norwegian capitalist dollars each when i bought them, and now they are worth 5,5 norwegian capitalist dollars each. Can really only go up from here :cool:
Seriously.. I got them from my mom after she went to florida some years back and the value has dropped by about 50% vs the norwegian oil rubel.
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God isn't doing too well in the money business.
The Dow is lower than it was in 2000, but inflation has been almost 47% since then.
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As far as "Under God" being in the pledge of allegiance I do think it should be removed, it's not going to hurt anyone to have it taken out. Take me, when I was in school I never liked saying the pledge just because of that phrase as I was atheist, removing the phrase would just solve the problem, just because a majority don't mind it being in it does that mean we just say screw the minority. I mean I don't care about it enough that I'm gonna go out and do anything about it, I just see the side of having it taken out.
Yes, but I dont see how the minority of people who want it taken out get their way. If you didn't like saying it without the under god, dont, or dont say it at all.
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The fact that it was added later, contradicting the separation of church and state?
Certainly.
But, again, it's not that big a deal IMO and most people get way too worked up about it.
You said it twice. Do your homework.
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I was walking down the street and I overheard these 2 guys talking about somebody who heard that the liberals were gonna pass a law that made us all do stuff that is by gawd unamerican! Lousey liberals and their godless ways!
What do you guys think?
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god is mentioned a number of times by the founders. to simply have god in the money and the pledge is not in the least a violation of seperatation of church and state.
God is not a church. The government recognizing god does not mean it has established a church. If you are serious about wanting to know what it means you need to look at the founders and the church of england. They did not want a "church of America" god is not a church. God can be whatever you want him to be.. you athiests can make yourself your god if you like.
lazs
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I beg to differ Lazs, by putting the name of "God" on or in your official documentation you are predisposing your country to a specific band of religious orientation.
By popular definition "God" is the Judeo-Christian god NOT "Allah" NOT "Buddha" and NOT any of the many Hindu, Norse, ancient Greek, Roman or Pagan gods. It is also by definition most definitely NOT a substitute for agnostic or atheist traditions.
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Its getting so the dish has so many spices, it tastes like cardboard.
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Cardboard is great... IF you're a cockroach.
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SD.. sorry but that is not the case.. the problem as the founders (our founders) seen it was the formation of a church run by the state.. such as the church of england. Having a god is not a church.
lazs
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They mentioned that there wont be any more "Under God" in our pennies, quarters... etc.
Did you mean no more "In God we trust"? It appears on all coins, and I have not heard anything about it being removed. I think you are a victim of marketing.
"In God We Trust" is the national motto of the United States. It would take another act on Congress to get that changed. I personally feel that this country has more important issues to worry about.
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Sorry Lazs, I misread your post. I see you stated that it was a misrepresentation of the separation of the church and state, I agree with that.
Recognising any god at all, let alone one called "God" does predispose them to a narrow band of belief structure.
:salute
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"In God We Trust" is the national motto of the United States. It would take another act on Congress to get that changed. I personally feel that this country has more important issues to worry about.
They didn't have room to state the obvious: "Everyone else pays cash"
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"a narrow band of belief structure" does not mean church. You really need to read what the founders said about church and state. It is probly enough to realize that they were using england as a model of almost everything bad with government. the church of england was particularly abhorent to them.. god was not.
lazs
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My personal opinion (based on not beeing religious i suppose) is that religion and money should be separated if you know what i mean. So I would remove any reference to religion or spirituality on money.
nonono.. i have faith in my 14 dollars!
These views are contradictory.
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No worries, Mate!
Under Obama's Change We Can Believe In is Change #27: You will have no more change in your pocket to worry about after I'm done raising taxes.
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"In God we trust--All others pay CASH"
(BTW: Do athiests actually all get together on Sunday morning and chat about not believing? Inquiring minds want to know)
ROX
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(BTW: Do athiests actually all get together on Sunday morning and chat about not believing? Inquiring minds want to know)
No, Tuesdays they go bowling though.
But sometimes agnostic dyslexic insomniacs do lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
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I always used "In God we trust, all others we run through NCIC".
:aok
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Did you mean no more "In God we trust"? It appears on all coins, and I have not heard anything about it being removed. I think you are a victim of marketing.
"In God We Trust" is the national motto of the United States. It would take another act on Congress to get that changed. I personally feel that this country has more important issues to worry about.
Well, that was the wierd thing. I never heard about it on the news or anything. They just kinda mentioned it a few times... Wierd...
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No, Tuesdays they go bowling though.
But sometimes agnostic dyslexic insomniacs do lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
We also have Hawaiin T-Shirt Fridays.
ack-ack
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No worries, Mate!
Under Obama's Change We Can Believe In is Change #27: You will have no more change in your pocket to worry about after I'm done raising taxes.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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But sometimes agnostic dyslexic insomniacs do lay awake all night wondering if there is a dog.
:rofl
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Someone please answer this question. Where is this phrase "separation of church and state" in our Constitution? Have read it several times and have not seen it.
Oh, that's right. It ISN'T!!!! It was from a letter that Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists.
What the Danbury Baptists wrote:
as an enemy of religion Law & good order because he will not, dares not assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make Laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.
Jefferson's reply:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
Amazing how our courts are starting to take things out of context and change the laws using misguided judgement. I see nowhere that government can make a law taking a young person's right to pray in school or force a judge to take down the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"
What is being inforced now is prohibiting ones "free exercise" of what they belive. We are given freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion.
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Very well said.
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Oh okay. :aok
But still, would you like to see it gone? I just find it very odd that the minority who want it gone are beating the majority who either have no problem with it or want it to stay.
I want the pledge as it was written, anything wrong with that?
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henh?
It's chump change... literally. Who cares?
...surely, the ploy of distracting the masses from their concerns regarding a war, infringement of personal liberties and the stability of the nations banks, foreclosures, unemployment, the economy and an election by starting a heated debate about shiny coins and their inscriptions won't work....
*cough*
<sound of crickets>
... never mind.
Hang
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Someone please answer this question. Where is this phrase "separation of church and state" in our Constitution? Have read it several times and have not seen it.
Oh, that's right. It ISN'T!!!! It was from a letter that Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists.
What the Danbury Baptists wrote:
Jefferson's reply:
Amazing how our courts are starting to take things out of context and change the laws using misguided judgement. I see nowhere that government can make a law taking a young person's right to pray in school or force a judge to take down the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. What is being inforced now is prohibiting ones "free exercise" of what they belive. We are given freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion.
Yup. The phrase appears in a letter written by TJ. That's it. It's no more constitutional than O'Club postings.
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Interesting how some take Jefferson's Danbury letter as Constitutional law but totally ignored a lot of other stuff he wrote like
‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’
— Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764
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hang.. problem is.. there is plenty of government to go around.. we get a new department every day and no detail in your life is so insignificant that they can't find a real need to regulate it.
EPA will eventually be in every aspect of your life for instance and cost you.. in fees/taxes about $400 a month.. that would be the environmental taxes and fees and the stuff heaped onto your water, garbage and sewer bill and even your power bill.. not counting their air quality branch that is making diesel cost about a buck a gallon more at the pumps.. and the fees for your car.
I am telling you right now.. as I have for the last few years.. the hippies that run the EPA will end up costing you more than the IRS costs you in real dollars. It won't take more than 10 years at this rate.
at some point.. people might notice tho and reign em in.. it will take a lot tho.
lazs
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By popular definition "God" is the Judeo-Christian god NOT "Allah" NOT "Buddha" and NOT any of the many Hindu, Norse, ancient Greek, Roman or Pagan gods. It is also by definition most definitely NOT a substitute for agnostic or atheist traditions.
Hmmm...it depends. Given that Arabic speaking Christians and Jews refer to their God (the Judeo-Christian God) as "Allah", how does this fit into things?