Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on March 26, 2001, 07:01:00 AM
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I know this has been suggested many times over, but it needs to be brought up again.
Why does a pilot wounded, damage effect, effect every other crew position on a bomber?
My pilot got wounded over the weekend, and eventually died about 5 seconds from a drop on the enemy HQ (defended), after I had fought my way thru 3 enemy fighters knocked them all down and the only damage I had was the wounded pilot. And I did it all at 15,000ft.
Of course it totally disabled and killed at the same time the Co-Pilot, Navigator, Bombardier, Crew Chief, Radio Operator, and the 5 other crewmen on board.
Talk about a Martian death ray. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
My suggestion is that if the damage model can't handle multiple crewmen, is to just remove the "Pilot" damage "block" entirely for multicrew aircraft. Would certainly be more fair than what we currently have.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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As much as I thought the pilot wounded damage was a very nice addition to the sim area where otherwise you have to beat the plane out of the sky, I must admit that I have to agree here. Was thinking this myself the other day infact. Of course you must also keep in mind that in some of the multicrew planes there still was only one pilot - to wit the Lanc for one. Now according to my Halifax friend they did have another crew take turns at the stick so he could fly in case pilot was unable to, but then you would lose another position (though in his plane at least this was the flight engineer who did not have a position protrayed in this game anyway). Some planes this wont be an option in of course (TBM if pilot is down, its time to bail).The multi crew system as it is is very clever but this fix would be one that would make it more clever still. Of course you could always change it so each individual crew position is wounded as well, more clever yet.
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Dream on about making pilots invincible.. I like shooting at them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Though, stupid that gunners feels the effects too if pilot feels lil' dizzy.
(damn borgs!)
Needs a little fix.. when pilots dies, plane goes down while player can still man the guns but can't do anything for maneuvering the plane than watch it spiralling. (of course autopilot will be automatically disengaged (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
of course player could bail out but would be counted KIA since his pilot died.. okey?
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From a medical stand point, and physics I too I suppose, our pilot wounded effect by itself is very silly.
Adrenaline would make it pretty hard for you to pass out due to a wound alone.
Whats that you say? Blood loss? Then why does he magically awake several seconds later? Secondary blood reserves being released? The blood shoots back into to his body? Ya pass out from blood loss ya stay out untill you can get a transfusion or have a few weeks to heal. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Same with head concussions, etc etc.
It's all silly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Be better to activate stick stirring code when wounded in some combination form to where total consciousness is not lost, but weekend to the point where it hampers, albeit not prevent, flying/driving/etc
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Needs a little fix.. when pilots dies, plane goes down while player can still man the guns but can't do anything for maneuvering the plane than watch it spiralling.
Fishu, don't forget the copilot.
Or the Navigator or Bombardier, who were usually pilot candidate washouts, but who could keep the aircraft in the sky.
If they get killed/wounded too, then I understand.
But a B17 going down to a single pilot wound is total BS
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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So is spraying 100 rounds of .50 into a buff's fuselage and have no gunners killed.
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So is the death star gunnery they have (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yep must make things easier for the buffs, the poor guys have it soo hard now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW who cares bout historical realism in buffs anyway? Right AH-errettes! Ra Ra Ra
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GRUNHERZ,
Instead of making sarcastic comments reguarding these things, why don't you tell us what you'd like to see as far as bombers go?
I, for one, am curious.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Sure Karnak
Well for starters we must get rid of chog. I firmly belive that the main reason bombers, and now panzers and M3s, have such overblown AA gunnery ability is due to the prevalence of the chog and its 4 super hispanos with some sort of combined ability AP/HE in every single shell. Either get rid of or perk chog or figure out why hipanos are so wierd.
With a monster like chog dominating MA every tour in both K/D rate and total kills, its little wonder bombers have such defensive guns. This would help bombers tremendously.
Second I belive the best way for bomber guns would be to have an automatic gunnery system with about the accuracy of field acks- firing exactly the same .50cal guns and ammo, plus no super automatic convergence and no enhanced damage. A human gunner would be able to select and control only one gun station at a time. No more 1 ping wonder kills on 400mph HO diving fighters.
Bombers should have somewhat enhanced ability to survive 20mm hits. The greater strength and no chog/wierd hispano in MA will offset the loss of uprated guns.
We must be able to kill dead any and all gunners, im not sure whether this exists now or not.
No more super 100% accuracy in bomb drops over 15-20k. Anything over that should incur severe retardation in accuracy. Face it guys this was the choice in RL, go in low alt and be accurate, but also more vulnerable. Or go in high and safe but do little damage due to lower accuracuy. Buffs in AH face no such choices.
Bombs should have more ability to kill without a direct hit. This should apply to buildings and vehicles. Especially open topped and softskins.
"Car bombing" should be disabled.
Thats about it I guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HEAR HEAR GRUN!
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
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GRUNHERZ,
Interesting. I agree with some of what you said.
I would like to see the F4U-1C made into a cheap perk, but not removed.
I would like to be able to select what kind of ammo my Spitfire's (and all other aircraft's) cannons and guns are loaded with, AP, HE or a mixed belt.
Less accuracy, but bigger blast effect could be balanced so that an hour and a half bomber flight isn't useless.
As you know, you're going to catch horrid amounts of flak for suggesting Otto, but it is a valid suggestion. I myself am not too comfortable with Otto because he wastes ammo. On the other hand I usally fly Lancasters, so only being able to control 1 gun position at once would not really be a penalty for me. I am, however, not the only person with an opinion on this. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gunners can currently be killed. I've landed a B-17 with its tail, ball and top turrets all out of action. When a gunner is killed I would like it if you could no longer jump to that position.
I agree whole heartedly about the "Car bombing".
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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I never played WB so I dont know how Otto worked (apparently not well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). To be more specific on what I had in mind, is having the human gunner firing and aiming only one gun, while all the other guns did their reasonable AI best to hit you based on where they were in the bomber. No more of some bomber guns firing impossible angles through wings and fuselage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) On your concern about ammo This could be set up that the bomber guns dont fire till the human gunner opens up- or could be set up to fire 100% of time at targets under 800yds-1k. Maybe make it a preflight option or dot command.
Anything would be better than the too accurate convergence and tracking and upped hitting power we have now. Its just too wierd IMHO.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Instead of making sarcastic comments reguarding these things, why don't you tell us what you'd like to see as far as bombers go?
I, for one, am curious.
I will give my personal view of this.
Give buffs realistic gunnery, with adequate damage models, convergences and fire arcs (no more ball turrets firing 12 o'clock high, please). Give Buffs realistic bombsights (no more pinpoint hits and almost impossible accuracy even for carpet bombing at 35k). Give buffs realistic objectives to carpet bomb (HQ being a zone bombing target instead of being a point-target). And tune down the friggin acks on the fields.
Results: you get realistic planes wich can be used realistically; Use jabos for field supression, let the buffs do the strategic bombings.
Now, go and complain that without the gunnery the buffs are hopeless against fighters. So?. Get a flight of four B17s, fly in formation to the enemy HQ or city. With escort, the best. The HQ wont be difficult to hit from 23K, as it will be an area full of little buildings, not a single building. Put a # of bombs into that zone and the HQ is kicked out. Same with city. Same with factories.
Tune up buff strenght a bit.Tune down the F"%"·$king lasers. And then you'll have a nice ballance between gameplay and realism.
As it is now, with 35K uberdweeb buffs making pinpoint attacks on little acks and buildings, with lasers wich hit at 1.5K, etc etc etc...you have a fediddleing Death Star, not a bomber.
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Hey Luftwobbles, stay on topic! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Just because you don't like buff guns and chogs (which I don't either), doesn't mean you should support what is obviously a BUG.
Grunherz, if you dislike the human gunnery system of AH, trust me that you would HATE "Otto". Just go read the threads on AGW every week on the subject if you need any convincing.
A BUG is a BUG that needs squashed. Period.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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If the bombers had AUTO that was as accurate as the field guns it would be a total joke, never would one survive, you can always fly almot to the middle of a field before the guns get you...which translates into you being able to shoot down the bomber most likley before it gets a single ping on you.
THe field acks seldom kill fighters that are headed straight at them..and they are alot bigger than the 50 cal buff guns.
If yer gonna have auto it would have to be AT LEAST 4x more accurate than the current field act to give the bombers even a somewhat fair chance of surviving 1 weak fighter.
I though people didnt ike getting shot by AH's total BS AI guns..doing almost anything to the bombers guns would cause more problems than it would or could fix.
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As to the issue of what a Bomber should do, I agree. the precision bombing in this game is a little silly. Increase the kill range of the bombs, decrease the bomb accuracy, take away the Single Bomb drop ( maybe I am wrong, but my studies don't show anything other than total bombload drop on first pass - only issue was all at once or in string), and increase spread of targets. The way to destroy a target was multiple bomb loads (from mulitple planes) shotgunning the target with the thought that you'd hit what you needed. Want to make it so one or few planes can suceed? well make the damage repair slower (say 30 min and 1 hour versus 15 and 30 min, including partial damage), so they can come back and finish the job. Dumping a string into a field and seeing what you hit is alot more logical than drawing a bead on the guy on the right manning the 20 mm from 30 k! In summary what I suggest is say twice as many of everything on a field area, all much softer and or increase bomb range by double. Have bombs effected by wind (and maybe a random scatter - hey those fins cant all be perfect) and take away the Zoom in Bombsight and have all bombs drop on the first bomb toggle. Whatever is damaged repairs slower by factor of two.
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who was it who made the comment about delayed guns? i really like that idea. you can fire from one position, then say a second or so later the others start firing too.
that way the guy that lumbers in on your six is still toast, but the guys who are patient and bounce have a chance.
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how do we know clams are really happy?
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well when the Chogs could reach out at 1k and knock down a bomber HT made "adjustments" for lag so that a CHOG couldn't sit outside gunnery range and blow the bomber away. Since then the hispano's have been toned down in range but the bombers were never changed from the "adjustment" so what we have now is the reverse, no fighter can approach the bomber without having his wings blown off when he is still out of gun range. I say change the "adjustment" to fit the new environment by pulling in the effective range abit to say 700 yrds as apposed to the 1.2k that they are now. As for bombing I argee with "whole load" idea stated above, no more surgery strikes with one bomber and I think closing the runway should be possible with enough hits.
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Sorry for topic hijack Vermillon, but I think this is getting very interesting (and quite civilized, so far).....
Except for Otto (I hated that) I agree with Grunherz points. Espcially blast radius and pinpoint accuracy (of course, my position about Quakebirds is well known (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). As it is now is pretty much all or nothing. I would like to add couple more:
- Linked to blast radius, bomb craters should be proportional to their explosive power, both in depth and diameter.
- I really miss some more realistic runway damage. Craters should be there for a long time, and flight operation hardened, eventually negated. Dunno if I am right (anyone enlighten me, pls?) but a 1000 pounder is pretty much able to put a crater as wide as the runway itslef, so, 2x1000 well put might disable that runway, except for STOL (Zeke and the like).
- Indirectly linked to the previous, I would like to get rid of unrealistic T/O through the airbase. No way on earth a plane can take off through all buildings, ack, fuel depots, cloth ropes (at least have it modelled so you can see some fancy undie hanging outside your elevators (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), sheep (what a waste) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).... Plus, if you get off the runway fast enough, I think your gear should collapse.
All in all, I think the whole Buff thingy deserves a second thought, and, eventually, a tweak.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Fishu, don't forget the copilot.
Or the Navigator or Bombardier, who were usually pilot candidate washouts, but who could keep the aircraft in the sky.
If they get killed/wounded too, then I understand.
But a B17 going down to a single pilot wound is total BS
"..when pilots dies,.."
"pilots"
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-29-2001).]