Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: covega on March 30, 2000, 05:23:00 PM
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The Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group, a buf squadron, has finally had to face the facts:
the AH bufs are deathtraps.
Why?
Very simple. Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!
This, of course, is totally unrealistic and makes the AH buf a deathtrap unless it is being attacked by only a single fighter...and then we have the extra-vulnerable hit model to deal with. Not a good situation for the buf jockeys, and unrealistic as well.
/s/
vega
Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group
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"Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!"
This is true, but when attacked by a single fighter the BUFFs have an incredible defensive firepower. It's a trade-off.
I disagree completely on the damage model. The BUFFs are very tough. Remember that when you are in the BUFF it is not possible to estimate the number of hits taken. The only accurate measure is obtained on the shooter's front end - that's where the hits are scored. The target aircraft just gets whatever sounds the host decides to send that way. I think a lot of bomber pilots have no idea how much ammo their plane is absorbing. I fly about 50/50 heavies and fighters, and trust me they take a LOT of bullets.
Also the idea that a BUFF should be safe from multiple fighters is silly. In the real deal, one on one was generally a turkey shoot in favor of a fighter and many fighters vs. one bomber was near certain death for the bomber.
Constructive Stuff:
I do think we need to be able to carry more than one gunner. Also if a gunner is aboard, the pilot should be able to take over a gun station.
Make one guy the "Master Gunner" and one guy the "Auxilary Gunner". The Aux. Gunner controls his station only, but the "Master Gunner" controls all unmanned stations.
Heck you can extend this to as many Aux. Gunners as you have stations.
I sure don't want to see Otto here. Otto sucks. And looking at the ZSU-23 ack aiming algorithm I shudder to think how it would be coded...
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Just remember that the BUFFS were never designed to fly ALONE in RL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Get your Bomber Group to bring up 3 or 4 Buffs with one gunner in each plane, and lets see how long you last in the air and how many fighters you light up.
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Here we go again....back to the "real life" argument.
This isn't real life....it's a game.......it's gotta be fun 1st.
Swoop
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Very simple. Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!
So.. the main argument here is that it should be easier for a buff to survive a 2:1 with fighters? I can't be the only one to see how ludicrous this concept is.
As it stands now, the fact that a buff has such a good chance against a fighter in a 1:1 is slightly rediculous. I'm willing to deal with it for the sake of gameplay though... we just don't have the numbers to man complete bomber groups with escorts all the time.
The buff can fly higher than most planes... and it is suicide for any number of fighters to go up against one over 30k (except for p-38's.. though that is only 50:50). You guys have enough benifits of playability exceeding realism already. Sorry, but I don't even remotely agree with you on this one.
AKDejaVu
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its not that 2 fighters could or could not take a buff down its that 1 crew member is BS we need the realistic air crew not unless you want otto and im sure you dont!
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"JoeMud and the Volcano"
Now showing at your local AH drive in!
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I think the fair compromise is more than one gunner- if someone can talk 7 people into riding in a bomber with him, so be it. It won't happen often enough to be an issue.
FWIW, I flew a B26 tonight to 21; I was intercepted by a Nikki and Spitfire. The Nikki bored straight in, the spit to the side and low. I got both (but lost my engines). I reversed to tackle the 1C flying up my tailpipe. I knew I was done for, but I had a better chance putting 4x.50's on him than 2 (my top turret was dead). He won. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now before you say this illustrates your point, let me add this fight took place at 10K. Had I climbed to 20K they would never have laid guns on me.
I agree with funked, the buffs are very flyable if you use your head. I'll take two fighters for every buff I lose and be happy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I might add this is a very typical B26 sortie for me.
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I aggree, when there is time I hope that an expansion of the buff to allow multi gunners would be great. I would say gunner 2 turns off all coordinated gunnery though.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Swoop,
I tend to think of AH as more as an simulation of WWII air combat than an game (i hope the creators _still_ strive for that anyway.
If you want an "game" then look up Fighter Ace or AW.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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I have no problem with multiple gunners and have suggested the same thing myself, but I certainly don't want to see "otto" in Aces High.
I have never seen the community in WB's agree on how otto is modeled. If Bomber pilots like it, fighters are getting swatted out of the sky like with a phalanx defense system. If fighter pilots like it, Bomber pilots feel that they can't fly effectively.
Just say no to "otto".
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Maniac,
I'd just like to say; Fighter Ace isn't a game, it's a pathetic use of hard drive space that some people seem to call a flight sim.
AW, never tried it.
Swoop
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I fly the buff. I like the AH buff. The only plane I have a prob. with is the Uber-Hawg Cannons.
JUST SAY NO to otto in AH. We don't want it, we don't need it. If you have a problem with more than 1 fighter attacking your lone buff, GET SOME FIGHTER ESCORT!!!
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
"Experience is a hard teacher because she
gives the test first, the lesson afterwards"
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Agree! No OTTO! I survived a long time in that B26 being attacked by 2-3 fighters. They usually end up getting me, but I dealt out some damage. If I would of had at least one escort, I probably would of survived.
Taking a gunner also helps out alot. If there is anything changed it should be to allow two human gunners to be on board. The B26 and B17 would be very tough to kill then.
Just my opinion!
have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
-XO- II/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Originally posted by Wraith:
Just remember that the BUFFS were never designed to fly ALONE in RL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Get your Bomber Group to bring up 3 or 4 Buffs with one gunner in each plane, and lets see how long you last in the air and how many fighters you light up.
Then you had also a group of fighters buzzing around (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Not to talk about working WGr21 rockets.....
or hmm.. schröke musik or something.. like that..
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One thing.. HT has stated that there will never be 'otto' in AH.
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AW3 has used gunners only. Also, AW Classic did too. You have 2 waist guns, Ball, Chin, Upper, tail, and I think that was all. An AW pilot can call for gunners, and may fly with one or.... as a "Death Star" fully gunned!
They had a max load of 12 bombs, but could reach a ceiling of 44K. Of course, hit % drops significantly then, at that alt. Bombs seem to wander and you couldn't see many structures, until the last moment.
But I would like to see multiple gunners as well. I asked HT that very question in the Beta, and 1 was max. Maybe we could get 3 as a compromise. I am sure it has to deal with the FE issue or server FE.....(clueless about the server setup)
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)
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'scuse my ignorance, but wtf is 'otto'?
Swoop
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"Otto" means "autogunners", such as those on the airfields. Can you imagine what it would be like attacking airfield accurate gunners on bombers? Talk about untouchable! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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OTTO bomber gunner to pilot: "4 F4C's behind us, 2K, do we bail out?"
Pilot:"Retreat? In our moment of Triumph?"
(hope some of you get it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Hint: Death Star)
Heck, ONE gunner is tough enough on this game, in AW3 the BUFFS needed several gunners because it was easy to fly around a buff and kill it.. AH's FM doesn't allow such fast twists.
DWBomberGroup: Get 4 buffs, one gunner each, box formation, 2 escorts. See if ANYONE can touch you then. You got the members to allow the BUFF formation, you can get anyone from the other squadrons to escort you (Pony Express guys escort good!). You are supposed to be a BOMBER GROUP, not "Group of Guys who fly bombers"...fly as such and you will make it. Remember: The Bomber will always get through (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I feel kind of silly posting here, but after what happened to me tonight, I think I will. In the past I've had no trouble defending my bombers from fighters; usually I could kill at least 1 fighter before I was shot down. Tonight however, geez, I would light up fighters that were attacking me from 1.6k out until around 600 yds. What happened next you ask? My plane instantly blows up! I don't remember this happening in the past. It used to be that you had a pretty good chance of at least beating off the fighter and escaping with only minor damage. This happened to me 3 times in a row. In 2 of the cases the fighter was lit up from about 1.6k all the way until the time I blew up. Both times I had to have had sustained hits on the fighter for 3+ seconds. In only 1 case did the fighter go down, but only after I had already blown up. (My squadmate verified it.) The problem I saw was that it would be impossible to down a fighter, as I couldn't have possibly hit them any more times.
Don't take this as a whine, it's not, it's just my own experiences with bombers tonight. Would it be possible, HTC, to at least look into whether something has happened to the bomber .50s or damage modeling? If you find something, great, and if not, I will accept it no questions asked.
I just find it hard to believe that so many people are complaining (including some of the best bomber pilots) without something being wrong.
Thanks,
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I am not a good buff pilot. I'm not even a decent buff pilot. I might have done a dozen buff sorties total from beta to now. Tonight I took a B26 up and took 4 fighters with me, 2 of them F4Us.
I don't see a problem with allowing multiple gunners on, but as far as the guns there is no doubt they work, and work pretty well.
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Fatty
FAT DRUNK BASTARDS (http://fdb.50megs.com)
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Originally posted by bloom25:
I feel kind of silly posting here, but after what happened to me tonight, I think I will. In the past I've had no trouble defending my bombers from fighters; usually I could kill at least 1 fighter before I was shot down. Tonight however, geez, I would light up fighters that were attacking me from 1.6k out until around 600 yds. What happened next you ask? My plane instantly blows up! I don't remember this happening in the past. It used to be that you had a pretty good chance of at least beating off the fighter and escaping with only minor damage. This happened to me 3 times in a row. In 2 of the cases the fighter was lit up from about 1.6k all the way until the time I blew up. Both times I had to have had sustained hits on the fighter for 3+ seconds. In only 1 case did the fighter go down, but only after I had already blown up. (My squadmate verified it.) The problem I saw was that it would be impossible to down a fighter, as I couldn't have possibly hit them any more times.
Don't take this as a whine, it's not, it's just my own experiences with bombers tonight. Would it be possible, HTC, to at least look into whether something has happened to the bomber .50s or damage modeling? If you find something, great, and if not, I will accept it no questions asked.
I just find it hard to believe that so many people are complaining (including some of the best bomber pilots) without something being wrong.
Thanks,
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
That is exactly why I quit flying the heavies and starting perfecting my JABO attacks.
After all the discussion on the .50s I'm of the opinion that the tweaking of the damage models just before the beta ended has given the appearence that the .50s are nerfed. I first noticed this change in version .45-.46, and it's culminated to its current state.
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I don't see what the problem is with otto. I liked the b17 in WB just fine, and had a lot of fun in them. This is a game, not a simulation, and as such it's no fun to wait a half an hour just to get your buff up to only 15k then end up killed just as your about to drop eggs because you were in the bombadier station for the last 2 minutes with your head down in the bombsight and never even saw the 109 bearing down on you.
Even if otto is very weak he could at least serve as a look out. Otto weapons could be automaticly tight below 10k to prevent deathstar tactics. ( Although I really like anouncing over the radio "That's no moon".
This should be a fun game, and no otto at all hinders the buff pilot. Especially in the main arena without a squad. Who wants just gun and sit around for half an hour and possibly not even get any action. Plus the pilots and gunners never agree about holding steady for good shot on enemy or dogging and bouncing to avoid fire. I would enlist every otto I could induce into service. More fun, less hassle.
Gibu
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Sounds like most players don't want to see otto, but there is a real problem when a buf is attacked from two different directions simultaneously. Allowing more than 1 gunner onboard is the obvious solution.
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There is one thing we not focusing on here ..(ie.I am seeing 3 buffs go down to 1 attacking F4U). The Gameplay issue for Bomber Pilots is not being addressed. Simply, the .50 cals in bombers need to hit harder.
Thunder
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Thunder it wont help you against the 1c..You would have to make it like a 20mm. then no other plane can intercept bombers...
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Thunder:
The Gameplay issue for Bomber Pilots is not being addressed. Simply, the .50 cals in bombers need to hit harder.
Thunder
Thunder, you got it exactly right. Very few people seem to care about the "gameplay issues" of bomber pilots.
I hope the new patch will bring the much needed strat back to the game.
No doubt about it, AH is a Quakefest now. IMHO
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Adding gunners additional gunners may not be a simple task.
I'd like to see HT or Pyro comment on this but I'm betting there are issues we aren't considering. Net Lag between a multiple player crew, for example.
Sometimes things that seem simple...aren't.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-03-2000).]
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Mox-
Just because people don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't mean they don't care. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Toad-
Most likely you are right. In theory though it does make more sense than upping the strength of anyone's guns.
[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 04-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by Thunder:
There is one thing we not focusing on here ..(ie.I am seeing 3 buffs go down to 1 attacking F4U). The Gameplay issue for Bomber Pilots is not being addressed. Simply, the .50 cals in bombers need to hit harder.
Thunder
Well, conversly, consider the pilot skill and accuracy, and the gunners too! I have taken a NIKI or other fiter, and only been able to get 1 kill(or none). <hosing is my motto>
However, I get a good run....once in a while, and get multiple kills.
Good SA, connections, and accuracy play a part in overall gameplay. Personnaly, I think the buffs are tuff enuff! But I agree that multiple gunners are needed. "Otto" auto gunners are "not" the answer. If "Otto" is enabled off-line, that is different. Then ewe have some competition.
On-line.....well then, $30.00 a month is too much to pay to get hosed by a server....IMHO.
I like to gun, as much as fly! I don't care what role I play, as long as I can play!
Isn't that why we are here? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Call for a gunner, and I will jump in in a heartbeat-unless I am in the air already!
K-KEN
http://www.cutthroats.com/ (http://www.cutthroats.com/)
(http://www.cutthroats.com/art/buttons/on_patch8Xs.gif)