Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: angelsandair on July 25, 2008, 10:41:09 AM
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Well, I keep hearing the 'rumors' of how HTC will also add the F6F-3. What differences are there in the 2? I know there are, just what? Looks? Speed? Maneuverability?
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From AHT:
Originally F6F-3 didn't have water injection (in AH, would mean no wep (250hp)) which -5 had as standard. -3's had it retrofitted in the field. -5 had racks for DT's, -3 didnt. Windshield was replaced to flat version which improved forward visibility (less canopy bracing). Aft fuselage windows removed from the -5, spring tabs added to the ailerons for the -5 (helped roll rate at higher speeds), closer fitting cowling, additional armor plating, strenghtened tail structure, provisions for rockets (hard points for them), new gunsight...etc.
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I found a link that notes a few differences between the F6F-5 and the F6F-3 http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F6F-5.html (http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F6F-5.html) Looks like there was an option for a 20mm, wouldn't that be awesome.
F6F Hellcat - Lessons learned in combat led to the development of the Hellcat. It was larger, faster, more maneuverable, more heavily armed, and its rug"ged construction allowed it to take considerable battle damage and continue to fly. Almost 75% of the U.S. Navy's air-to-air combat victories were credited to the Hellcat, with over 5000 enemy planes destroyed. The F6F-5 is powered by a 2000 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W engine with water injection. It was capable of a maximum speed of 380 mph at 23,500 ft. It was armed with either six 0.50 in guns or two 20 mm cannon and four .50 in guns. Up to 2000 lbs of bombs could be carried on the center section along with 6 rockets on wing stations. Over 7000 F6F-5s were produced."
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http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F6F-5.html (http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_F6F-5.html) Looks like there was an option for a 20mm, wouldn't that be awesome.
The 20mm gun package was only used by specialized F6F-5 units such as night fighter squadrons and were not used by regular squadrons.
ack-ack
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do you think the f6f-5 will be perked? :confused:
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Why would it? It's not perked now. It's the same plane as in-game.
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Hope we get the F6F-5N then, I'm mesmerized by the thought of a F6F with 2 20mms.
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You won't. Specialized night fighter with wingtip radar dome built into the wing.
Even so, most night fighters still used 50cals. Some used 20mm for sure, but there isn't a single photo of a daytime F6F with 20mm in the wing that isn't a prototype or a factory test plane (and folks have searched in the past, and not found any). Might want to let that dream die, as F6Fs were not (by and large) cannon armed planes.
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That dream made my friday at work go by faster. Would be nice to see those 2 20mms though, oh well.
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That dream made my friday at work go by faster. Would be nice to see those 2 20mms though, oh well.
Who knows? Maybe with the upcoming perked ordnance system we might get that as a perked gun package.
ack-ack
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You won't. Specialized night fighter with wingtip radar dome built into the wing.
Even so, most night fighters still used 50cals. Some used 20mm for sure, but there isn't a single photo of a daytime F6F with 20mm in the wing that isn't a prototype or a factory test plane (and folks have searched in the past, and not found any). Might want to let that dream die, as F6Fs were not (by and large) cannon armed planes.
I did a bunch of research on that. Actually got some info from the Smithsonian Air and Space museum. ALL F6F-5 fighters and later variants were manufactured with the capability to be armed with 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations, however most aircraft were delivered with the M2 .50 cal installed. ALL F6F-5N were produced mounting the 20mm cannon but most units in the field removed them in favor of the .50 due to logistics issues with getting the 20mm belted ammo. There are a few recodered kills of F6F-5N fighters armed with the 20mm cannon but as stated they were fairly rare in actual service.
All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start. That would be in keeping with the whole perk ords idea anyway right? The more exotic weapons loads would cost you more to use.
I would like to see it added as a perked option.
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I did a bunch of research on that. Actually got some info from the Smithsonian Air and Space museum. ALL F6F-5 fighters and later variants were manufactured with the capability to be armed with 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations, however most aircraft were delivered with the M2 .50 cal installed. ALL F6F-5N were produced mounting the 20mm cannon but most units in the field removed them in favor of the .50 due to logistics issues with getting the 20mm belted ammo. There are a few recodered kills of F6F-5N fighters armed with the 20mm cannon but as stated they were fairly rare in actual service.
All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start. That would be in keeping with the whole perk ords idea anyway right? The more exotic weapons loads would cost you more to use.
I would like to see it added as a perked option.
Yeah ... perk it the same as the F4U-C.
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F6F-3
A 380+ mph fighter
F6F-5
A 400+ mph fighter
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The -5 Hellcat was substantially different than the -3, yet the overall appearance remained the same. The differences in that regard are confined to a redesigned cockpit canopy with fewer braces, the deleted rear-vision window, and a more streamlined engine cowling to reduce drag.
The greatest changes in the designe were those that were implemented to meet a Navy demand for increased performance and improved roll rate:
Water injection
Redesigned, lower drag cowling.
New, non-specular, paint job with a factory applied coat of wax to reduce drag.
These changes yielded an increase in top speed that, depending on the sources cited, varied between 401 and 409 mph, up substantially from the oft quoted top speed of 380 mph of the -3. Other changes in the -5 was the attachment of hard points for the carrying of 1000 pound bombs, or three 150 gallon fuel tanks (a combat configuration that was rarely used), and the mounting of six rockets. The horizontal stabilizers were also strengthened, giving the Hellcat to safely reach diving speed redlines as high as .80 mach, according to Grumman engineers.
Regards, Shuckins
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The -5 Hellcat was substantially different than the -3, yet the overall appearance remained the same. The differences in that regard are confined to a redesigned cockpit canopy with fewer braces, the deleted rear-vision window, and a more streamlined engine cowling to reduce drag.
I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to point that underlined part out.......that rear angle off view window on each side really helps ( least it did in another sim )......
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I did a bunch of research on that. Actually got some info from the Smithsonian Air and Space museum. ALL F6F-5 fighters and later variants were manufactured with the capability to be armed with 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations, however most aircraft were delivered with the M2 .50 cal installed. ALL F6F-5N were produced mounting the 20mm cannon but most units in the field removed them in favor of the .50 due to logistics issues with getting the 20mm belted ammo. There are a few recodered kills of F6F-5N fighters armed with the 20mm cannon but as stated they were fairly rare in actual service.
All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start. That would be in keeping with the whole perk ords idea anyway right? The more exotic weapons loads would cost you more to use.
I would like to see it added as a perked option.
VF(N)-90 (USS Enterprise), VF(N)-91 (USS Bonhomme Richard), VF(N)-41 (USS Independence) were all equipped with the 20mm F6F-5N. There were also quite a few daytime squadrons with night fighter divisions (VF-6, VF-9, VF-10, VF-12, VF-14, VF-15, VF-17, VF-20, VF-33, VF-82, VF-83, VF-84, and VF-85) that were equipped with 20mm F6F-5Ns.
ack-ack
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Does anyone have a drawing, diagram, or some good pictures that illustrate the differences in the cowling of the F6F-3 and F6F-5? The more aerodynamic cowling is often quoted as a reason for the performance increase of the -5 over the -3 (assuming both have water injection), but I am having trouble finding any pictures that clearly show a difference between the two models.
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Does anyone have a drawing, diagram, or some good pictures that illustrate the differences in the cowling of the F6F-3 and F6F-5? The more aerodynamic cowling is often quoted as a reason for the performance increase of the -5 over the -3 (assuming both have water injection), but I am having trouble finding any pictures that clearly show a difference between the two models.
How about this?
(http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/F6f3_5.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
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do you think the f6f-5 will be perked? :confused:
No.
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All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start.
The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).
Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?
The P-51 was designed and quite capable of carrying 4x20mm hispanos. In fact the B/D models could easily have carried this, with the Allison-powered models having very similar wing design to the B, and the D having even more room internally than the -B.
Doesn't mean they shoudl EVER get this option, now does it?
So what if the F6F was designed to carry the 20mm?
Big fat hairy deal. Folks keep harping on it over and over and over. Fact of the matter is MANY planes were designed to carry cannon armaments and NEVER carried them that way. Doesn't mean they should ever be modeled that way in a flight sim based on historical combat loadouts.
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How about this?
(http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/F6f3_5.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
It looks like Grumman cleaned up the cowling to reduce drag on the -5.
That's what I was looking for. Thanks Widewing.
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The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).
Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?
The P-51 was designed and quite capable of carrying 4x20mm hispanos. In fact the B/D models could easily have carried this, with the Allison-powered models having very similar wing design to the B, and the D having even more room internally than the -B.
Doesn't mean they shoudl EVER get this option, now does it?
So what if the F6F was designed to carry the 20mm?
Big fat hairy deal. Folks keep harping on it over and over and over. Fact of the matter is MANY planes were designed to carry cannon armaments and NEVER carried them that way. Doesn't mean they should ever be modeled that way in a flight sim based on historical combat loadouts.
If it wasn't a "field" mod and was actually produced with those options then yes they should have those options as a perk loadout. They were rare so perk the hell out of them, doesn't matter, but those options should be available. There were a number of F6F-5's delivered from the factory with 20mm's installed. The "field" mod was when the crews removed them and replaced them with the .50's. I can't prove that they ever flew in combat just as you can't prove they never didn't fly in combat, but there is ample proof they were built that way.
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If this meant that all C and E wing spitfires could have the option for 4 20mm i'm all for it. :D
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The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).
[hijack] DID it ever carry any 20mm hispanos?? [/hijack] :D
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If it wasn't a "field" mod and was actually produced with those options then yes they should have those options as a perk loadout. They were rare so perk the hell out of them, doesn't matter, but those options should be available. There were a number of F6F-5's delivered from the factory with 20mm's installed. The "field" mod was when the crews removed them and replaced them with the .50's. I can't prove that they ever flew in combat just as you can't prove they never didn't fly in combat, but there is ample proof they were built that way.
Matter of fact, most of the proof shows they did NOT fly into combat. Reports of the hispanos being removed, 100% of every photo you can find on the internet shows only 6x50cals on all daytime fighters, and 6x50cals on 99% of all night fighters (yes, that's right, even the F6F-5N had the cannons removed most of the time).
Fact of the matter is no daytime F6F ever went into combat with 20mms, that anybody has any proof of so far (and there have been quite a few threads on the matter)
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I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.
From Col. R. Bruce Porter in the "Becoming an ace" section http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html (http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html)
20MM F6F-N http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173) and http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947)
I thought I had found a good example of a daytime F6F-5 using the 20mm, until I saw the pilot was John Wayne...doh!
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Matter of fact, most of the proof shows they did NOT fly into combat. Reports of the hispanos being removed, 100% of every photo you can find on the internet shows only 6x50cals on all daytime fighters, and 6x50cals on 99% of all night fighters (yes, that's right, even the F6F-5N had the cannons removed most of the time).
Fact of the matter is no daytime F6F ever went into combat with 20mms, that anybody has any proof of so far (and there have been quite a few threads on the matter)
Because there is a lack of evidence does not make it fact that they didn't see service. Out of the 15,000 or so aircraft produced how many pictures of those planes are out there? Maybe a couple hundred if that? I'm not going by a picture, I'm going by the documentation, you know good old ink on paper from Grumman/Goodyear the manufacturer of the planes, and those technical documents, maintence manuals and operator manuals clearly state that the F6F-5 airframe (day fighter, 5N night fighter, and 5P photo recon fighter which by the way are ALL the exact same airframe) was designed from the outset to mount 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations. Those documents also state that there were numerous aircraft delivered from the factories with that gun/cannon package installed.
The evidence is there that they were produced and shipped to the US Navy, and Royal Navy fleets with that configuration.
You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.
Or do you think there is a picture of every single plane that was built and flew in combat?
That's my whole point. The 6 .50's was the typical everyday gun package, BUT it wasn't the only one used. The 20mm package would HAVE to be perked, no doubt about it, but unless you were there in WWII working on every F6F-5 fighter out there and can say with 100% certainty that NO 20mm armed F6F-5 fighter EVER flew in combat, I'll go with the documentation from the factory that says they built them and shipped them armed that way.
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I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.
It has been shown that a rare handful of F6F-5Ns used the 20mm, but most did not. Even photos of them on flight decks (wartime photos) show them with only 50cals in almost every photo out there.
You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.
Dude, you're so caught up in your drool over a Hellcat with cannons you can't stop to think properly. 109K-4s were SHIPPED from the factory with MG151 gondolas on, and not ONE plane flew with them in combat. Across the board they all used the nose gun only. Does this mean the 109K-4 should have a perked option of gondolas? Hell no.
Allison powered P-51s had quad hispanos in the same wing as the P-51B. P-51Bs came from the factory with the capability to carry 20mm. Should they? HELL NO.
SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.
F6F-5s had mounts for 20mm on the inboard position. Did any carry any? No. Did any F6F-5Ps? No. Did any F6F-5Ns? A very small number, on a specialized night fighter variant that we don't even have in-game. Should it be in game? HELL FRAK NO.
Seriously? Give it up. You can pretend the tooth fairy exists and say that I have to prove it doesn't when in fact most of the evidence over almost all sources say "no, it doesn't"
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The utilisation figures given in this section cannot be correct, at least as far as WW2 production is concerned. Some 7,200 SB-2C/W were built, using a total of 14,400 cannon. In addition, over 1,400 F6F-5N night fighters, which each carried two cannon, were made. Finally some 200 F4U-1C were equipped with four cannon. This gives a total of around 18,000 guns used by the USN.
The figure of 90+% of production to the USN also cannot be right. The USAAF principally used the 20mm Hispano in two aircraft: the P-38 (over 9,000 built, carrying one cannon each) and the P-61 (650 built, with four cannon), giving a total of nearly 12,000 guns. Nearly 30,000 guns were therefore fitted to aircraft, of which the USN made use of just over 60%.
This use breaks down (in round figures) as follows: USN attack planes 48%, USN night fighters 10%, USN day fighters 3%, USAAF night fighters 9%, USAAF day fighters 30%. ]
This is from, http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm)
Here's the carrier pic from above showing the 20mm on a flight deck http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173)
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OK Krusty I'll bow to your almighty opinion that you know all and your say so is all I need to be convinced that everything I've read from the manufacturers of the plane are wrong. You are the God of all that is WWII aviation and I'm not worthy to be in your presence.
But the FACT is your wrong and your pissed because you CAN'T prove I'm wrong and you know it. I CAN prove they were designed, built, and shipped that way, you CAN'T prove they never flew that way.
Again your "facts" are all based on your opinion that since you've never seen a combat photo then it never happened. Pretty thin if you ask me. Since the hard data shows that many planes were shipped from the factories with those cannons installed, the burdon of discrediting those sources lies with you to prove that EVERY single plane that was shipped with those cannons had them removed before they entered combat. Good luck with that.
Nice personal attack though stating I can't think. I can research though and that's what I've done, were is your research? Oh I forgot, "There's no pictures on the internet showing them so I never happened."
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It has been shown that a rare handful of F6F-5Ns used the 20mm, but most did not. Even photos of them on flight decks (wartime photos) show them with only 50cals in almost every photo out there.
Dude, you're so caught up in your drool over a Hellcat with cannons you can't stop to think properly. 109K-4s were SHIPPED from the factory with MG151 gondolas on, and not ONE plane flew with them in combat. Across the board they all used the nose gun only. Does this mean the 109K-4 should have a perked option of gondolas? Hell no.
Allison powered P-51s had quad hispanos in the same wing as the P-51B. P-51Bs came from the factory with the capability to carry 20mm. Should they? HELL NO.
SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.
F6F-5s had mounts for 20mm on the inboard position. Did any carry any? No. Did any F6F-5Ps? No. Did any F6F-5Ns? A very small number, on a specialized night fighter variant that we don't even have in-game. Should it be in game? HELL FRAK NO.
Seriously? Give it up. You can pretend the tooth fairy exists and say that I have to prove it doesn't when in fact most of the evidence over almost all sources say "no, it doesn't"
Just wanted to ask, since in this thread you ask if a 4 20mm P-51 should be in the game and you respond with HELL NO then why did you say this in anouther thread?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html)
Third response down.
"What I'd like/LOVE to see, possibly perked:
-12x .303 cal guns on the Hurr2C, making a Hurr2B
-2 pods of 2x MG151/20 each for the 190A-5 and A-8 (heavy drag as well)
-extra bomb racks on the later P38s (carrying 4 bombs, sometimes 6)
-if we ever get an Alison P51A, heavily perked 4x20mm option
-50cal option on later spits that still have 4x.303s (9? Nah, 8?)
I'd like to see the malcolm hood on the P51B perked! I'm not kidding, it gives it a huge advantage. If you don't perk it, you get the old greenhouse canopy."
Your back and forth on this subject.
I'm right on track and consistent with my wish. A Perked 20mm option for the F6F-5 with the documentation to back up that it was a factory designed OPTION for that airframe and not a prototype or experimental design. Pyro commented in that thread as well talking about a 57mm armed Mossie, and a few other very rare weapons loads used on other aircraft. So whats wrong with wanting a perked weapons load that was designed from the start to be used on ALL F6F-5 airframes which also happened to be the most heavily used Navy fighter, built in HUGE numbers in the war?
Hell yeah I'm for it and would love to see it in the GAME. Perk that sucker like an F4U-1C and go to town with it.
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SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.
NOT true . I have pics of Spit Vc on a mission With the 4 20mm cannons on a ground attack mission . it also has bombs on it's center line
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I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.
From Col. R. Bruce Porter in the "Becoming an ace" section http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html (http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html)
He was a night fighter pilot.
20MM F6F-N http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173) and http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947)
Those are F6F-5Ns being used in a day time interdiction mission, which was common. Unlike daytime F6F-5s, F6F-5N squadrons were considered 24 hour operational squadrons and flew missions in both day and night times.
There were also a few day time squadrons that had F6F-5N nighter fighter divisions, in a previous post in this thread I listed those squadrons that had night fighter divisions. The first picture showing the Hellcats on the carrier deck is probably one of those squadrons.
I thought I had found a good example of a daytime F6F-5 using the 20mm, until I saw the pilot was John Wayne...doh!
If it had John Wayne in the cockpit, you know it's authentic :)
ack-ack
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Because there is a lack of evidence does not make it fact that they didn't see service. Out of the 15,000 or so aircraft produced how many pictures of those planes are out there? Maybe a couple hundred if that? I'm not going by a picture, I'm going by the documentation, you know good old ink on paper from Grumman/Goodyear the manufacturer of the planes, and those technical documents, maintence manuals and operator manuals clearly state that the F6F-5 airframe (day fighter, 5N night fighter, and 5P photo recon fighter which by the way are ALL the exact same airframe) was designed from the outset to mount 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations. Those documents also state that there were numerous aircraft delivered from the factories with that gun/cannon package installed.
The evidence is there that they were produced and shipped to the US Navy, and Royal Navy fleets with that configuration.
You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.
Or do you think there is a picture of every single plane that was built and flew in combat?
That's my whole point. The 6 .50's was the typical everyday gun package, BUT it wasn't the only one used. The 20mm package would HAVE to be perked, no doubt about it, but unless you were there in WWII working on every F6F-5 fighter out there and can say with 100% certainty that NO 20mm armed F6F-5 fighter EVER flew in combat, I'll go with the documentation from the factory that says they built them and shipped them armed that way.
You should do a search for the previous threads on this subject, the information is quite enlightening.
One thing you have to realize that just because it says it fielded such and such gun in the design specs doesn't mean they were built and shipped from the factory that way. A perfect example is the P-38D, the design specs said it was designed to use the Oldsmobile 37mm cannon but you will never find one instance of a P-38D ever having been built and shipped from the factory with a 37mm cannon.
ack-ack
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I never got a yes or a no, did the P-40 ever have a 20mm option for it? If so could someone put up a picture? :salute
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Here's the carrier pic from above showing the 20mm on a flight deck http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173 (http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173)
The only Hellcats in that picture with 20mm cannons are the first two, the F6F-5Ns. As stated before, some daytime F6F-5 squadrons had a night fighter division, this squadron obviously being one of them. This does not prove at all that daytime F6F-5 Hellcats fielded 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
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Just wanted to ask, since in this thread you ask if a 4 20mm P-51 should be in the game and you respond with HELL NO then why did you say this in anouther thread?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,192234.90.html)
Third response down.
"What I'd like/LOVE to see, possibly perked:
-12x .303 cal guns on the Hurr2C, making a Hurr2B
-2 pods of 2x MG151/20 each for the 190A-5 and A-8 (heavy drag as well)
-extra bomb racks on the later P38s (carrying 4 bombs, sometimes 6)
-if we ever get an Alison P51A, heavily perked 4x20mm option
-50cal option on later spits that still have 4x.303s (9? Nah, 8?)
In your zeal to prove Krusty wrong, you missed his point. He was referring to the option of the P-51B/C having a 20mm gun package since the B/C used the same wing as the P-51A, not that he was against having the P-51A added as perked plane.
The fact is, there is no evidence of a daytime F6F-5 squadron using 20mm cannons in the field, all the evidence supports that only specialized F6F-5 units (night squadrons and figher recce squadrons) were equipped with the 20mm cannon in the field. There are some examples of a very limited number of F6F-5P (figher recce) having a 20mm but I think those were field test beds and not indicitive of the P variant being equipped with 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
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NOT true . I have pics of Spit Vc on a mission With the 4 20mm cannons on a ground attack mission . it also has bombs on it's center line
Very few flew with the quad 20mm cannons because of the stress it imposed on the wing. Instead the extra cannons were removed and the extra space was used to double the amount of 20mm cannon rounds for the remaining 2 20mm cannons on the vast majority if the Spitfire Vc.
Also, due to weight considerations, the Vc wasn't able to carry bombs if it was equipped with quad 20mm cannons because of the weight of the cannons and ammunition.
ack-ack
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Very few flew with the quad 20mm cannons because of the stress it imposed on the wing. Instead the extra cannons were removed and the extra space was used to double the amount of 20mm cannon rounds for the remaining 2 20mm cannons on the vast majority if the Spitfire Vc.
Also, due to weight considerations, the Vc wasn't able to carry bombs if it was equipped with quad 20mm cannons because of the weight of the cannons and ammunition.
ack-ack
I am not aware of any stress issues on the wing. What I am aware of is heating issues with the outer cannons and performance impacts from the extra weight of the heavy cannons.
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Answer my question pleeezee!! One of you said the P-40 could hold 20mms! Now it's bugging me like a fat smelly guy on an airplane! :furious :D
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Answer my question pleeezee!! One of you said the P-40 could hold 20mms! Now it's bugging me like a fat smelly guy on an airplane! :furious :D
Not from what I can find.
ack-ack
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The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).
Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?
Sounds like it was designed to be able to but the option was never actually put into use (like in the case of the P38D)
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In your zeal to prove Krusty wrong, you missed his point. He was referring to the option of the P-51B/C having a 20mm gun package since the B/C used the same wing as the P-51A, not that he was against having the P-51A added as perked plane.
The fact is, there is no evidence of a daytime F6F-5 squadron using 20mm cannons in the field, all the evidence supports that only specialized F6F-5 units (night squadrons and figher recce squadrons) were equipped with the 20mm cannon in the field. There are some examples of a very limited number of F6F-5P (figher recce) having a 20mm but I think those were field test beds and not indicitive of the P variant being equipped with 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
It's worth noting that F6F-5Ns with 20mm cannon often flew daytime ops. That's because an all-out strike (called an Alpha Strike today) utilized every available fighter armed with bombs and rockets. Many units flew theirs around the clock. Should the 20mm package be optional in AH2? No.... But, that doesn't mean that the type didn't see combat during daylight hours.
My regards,
Widewing
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Most american aircraft that hoped to carry 20mm never did, not because of the aircraft or the lack of NEEDING it, realy it was the engineers working on the 20mm the americans had.
Always failing to fire, and always jamming under high G, america never did solve these problems and that is why we did not use 20mm on our aircraft.
With the m3 coming into play, after the 45 we did not need cannon.
Shame too, because i think we had around 1+ million 20mm rounds just waiting to be fired.
Might be cool for perked ords tho.
What confuses me, is why the 38's did not have such a problem with the 20mm they had, did it use a diffrent chamber, or..something?
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The Hispano 20mm was originally developed by the French to be mounted in the vee between the cylinder blocks of the Hispano Suiza V12 engine, firing through the propellor hub. This made it easy to give it a very rigid mounting without too much increase in weight, since the block could carry most of the twisting loads. The heat of the engine prevented the gun from freezing at altitude too.
No British or American engine had the ability to mount a cannon in the vee, so their license produced Hispanos were often mounted in the wings. It was far harder for engineers to prevent the cannons jamming as the plane's wing flexed under G forces. They had to make a really stiff but heavy box structure around the gun bay to transfer the loads. The other problem was getting enough heat to the gun to prevent it freezing. This was always a problem with Spitfires which had a very thin wing to route the ducting and was the main reason the four cannon option was hardly ever used on this plane.
The American P-400 and P-39 had their 20mm cannon mounted in the nose where there was less airframe flexing and it was much easier to make a stiff mounting. There was also a lot more room to route hot air ducting.
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:salute
Thank you.
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With the m3 coming into play, after the 45 we did not need cannon.
Shame too, because i think we had around 1+ million 20mm rounds just waiting to be fired.
The Sabre could have put the 20mm to good use in Korea.
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Concerning the Hellcat, I remember WW posting something about it being 20 mph too slow.. or something of the sort.
Whenever I do happen to read something about the Hellcat, I consistently read that Grumman's airspeed indicators are not of the best quality - that they give low readings?
So does that mean that our Hellcat actually hits 400 mph in level flight since most of the stated data for the Hellcat's top speed is usually listed in various sources as 380 - 386 mph?
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SgtPappy,
There was nothing wrong with the Hellcat's airspeed indicator, but the location of the static and dynamic orifices on the fuselage consistently yielded an indicated airspeed about 20 knots slower than that of the Corsair's.
Grumman had gotten a lot of flak from the Navy about the "lower performance" of the Hellcat compared to the Corsair, and were told to rectify the problem. Grumman copied the position of the Corsair's static and dynamic orifices exactly. Problem solved.
By the way, Chance Vought was given access to several Hellcat aircraft in order to study it's cockpit layout, as well as its low-speed handling and stall characteristics. Their tests consistently showed that the Hellcat had a top speed in excess of 400 mph.
Regards, Shuckins
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Wow, so does that mean our new Hellcat's going to fly faster than 400 mph? I'm assuming the movement of these 'orifices' did not change the position of the pitot tube? The Hellcats I see have their pitot tubes only under the starboard wing.
That would give it a much heavier following.
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Concerning the Hellcat, I remember WW posting something about it being 20 mph too slow.. or something of the sort.
Whenever I do happen to read something about the Hellcat, I consistently read that Grumman's airspeed indicators are not of the best quality - that they give low readings?
So does that mean that our Hellcat actually hits 400 mph in level flight since most of the stated data for the Hellcat's top speed is usually listed in various sources as 380 - 386 mph?
Read this: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ptr-1111.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ptr-1111.pdf) 409 mph using Combat power (WEP), 12,285 lb.
And, this: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf) 391 mph in MIL power, aircraft in overload condition, 12,420 lb.
This also: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-72731.pdf (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-72731.pdf) 391 mph in MIL power, overload with single pylon. 12,420 lb.
Our Hellcat currently maxs out at 384 mph to 386 mph in WEP depending upon weight. Sea level speed is just about right. Speed at critical altitude is where we see the largest discrepancy. I'm hoping the FM gets updated with the graphics. I did notice that the flap indicator on the new model has what appears to be just two positions, up and down. That may indicate an FM change.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wow, that's some good data WW. The latter I saw as well but I didn't even realize that was on MIL power. With that speed on MIL, the plane's gotta go beyond 400 TAS at critical alt with WEP.
On a side note, concerning the flaps, does this dual stage arrangement mean that we can only drop flaps at 150 mph now? Not that I would mind if we had a 400 mph Hellcat. Just another amazing plane to fly off a CV.
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woah... F6F-5 at 400+ mph???
If that's true, then it will be on my favorite list... next to Fw 190s :aok
Btw, are we gonna get mid war F6F-3 variant?
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409mph at 20kft.
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woah... F6F-5 at 400+ mph???
wow, i love the F6F but the only way i have gotten it to 400mph is at 20+ K or in a steep dive, which the F6 does amazingly
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409mph at 20kft.
That's important to note as performance will be not be significantly different at normal Aces High altitudes.....
Thus, do not expect that the F6F-5 will suddenly become super uber, because it won't. If the FM is updated, all it will be is closer to the actual fighter. Improvement in speed won't be seen until above 10k.
Here's Mike Williams compilation of various F6F speed curves. US Navy tests employed a special test pitot system, which was considerably more accurate at high speed than that installed in the aircraft at the factory.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-level.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm not sure if a lot of us care about some super-uber Hellcat anyway.
For me anyway, it's simply about hitting my minimum requirements. The Hellcat has all of them (currently) but one.
-Climb faster than 3000 fpm (with WEP) for at least 6000' from SL
-Accelerate from 150 - 200 IAS in 10s or less
-Carry at least 2x 500 lb bombs
-Turn tighter than 680 ft diameter with no flaps
-Fly faster than 400 mph at best altitude
The P-38 hits these requirements as well, though it tends to get roll too slowly in the slow combat I must use against the likes of Spitfires and Corsairs.
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Answer my question pleeezee!! One of you said the P-40 could hold 20mms! Now it's bugging me like a fat smelly guy on an airplane! :furious :D
No. To clarify, this was built into the wing up until the P-40E. The P-40E no longer supported the internal frames or whatever had been done to fit a 20mm. It was deemed mixed ammo wasn't good for logistics or some such reason. They made the 50cal the standard P-40 armament after that.