Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: batdog on July 09, 2001, 07:49:00 AM
-
Yea, we've heard it before but...what the hey. Okies... WHY is the 38's boom so EASY to shoot off? The target picture of a 38's tail boom is rather small. I mean think about it... the tail boom is comprised of 2 mini fusalges and a small wing. I would say this part should be AT most as hard to hit as a normal plane.
Okies... number TWO. WHY is the 38 SO fragile overall? WHY???? I mean a NIKI is much tougher. A ZERO can take FAR more damage than a 38. You get a couple pings on a zero and it keeps flying, you get a ping on a 38 and you see your plane lose pieces,lose an engine or get a pilot wound.
I realize I am no expert thus this post will most likely be ignored but I felt I had to say it again.
xBAT
"Did i lose a wing? Naaaw... just my bellybutton again"
-
100% percent of my P-38 flights lately have ended because whole elevator were shoot off thouhgt both booms and rudders were still there.
I wonder how many P-38 went down in WW2 'cause missing elevators ?
Fork-Tailed devil?
For me it looks more like a glass-tailed...
-
P-38 has very narrow booms. It's like two tiny airplanes flying in formation. And all you have to do is shoot down one of the tiny planes to bring down the whole thing.
-
There is a very simple explanation as to why the P38 is so fragile in AH.... Citabria!
If the P38 was more durable, that guy would NEVER get shot down! :p
-
Funked... I agree BUT they outta be a wee bit harder to hit than they are now. As of now an individual can sprey my 6 from cl;ose to 1k away and take my tail off. Its silly.
xBAT
-
Agreed. EVERY SINGLE P-38 MISSION I do ends in that lost-elevator tail-slide.
Even if this is historically accurate (and I don't think it is), how about some concessions just for the sake of gameplay/variety? How about dying for a different reason once in a while?
-
I don't know about damage. Last time I played AH online I had P-38 going vertical on me and I had only 39 bullets left. Every bullet hit and nothing happend. He was about 75 deg from horizon and me. 300 away. Engine cocpit, tail, everything. Too bad I didn't record that moment, that was trully classic. :D
-
Xbat, the 38 historically had its tail booms held to the body of the plane by 2nd hand pantyhoses stapled to the wings. 38 pilots had to have a keen eye to avoid mosquitoes, dust particles, raindrops and the least of its concerns, enemy bullets, if they wanted to come home alive. :)
AH has this wonderfully modeled, so quit yer whining, its perfectly accurate! ;)
bzzzzzzzt*plink* *CRACK* *end of story*
-
Its not just the Tail boom its the engines too they take 1 ping and they stop working.
Here is a list of damage I have taken in the past 12 sorties in the P38.
1- both engines killed- ditch ( a total of 2 shots hit me 1 in each engine)
2- Tail boom shot off (1 ping)
3- Tail boom shot off (1 ping)
4- Tail boom shot off (1 ping)
5- Tail boom shot off (1 ping)
6- 1 stabalizer shot off and 1 engine and a gear hit- Landed (18 shots from ground fire)
7- Tail boom shot off (1ping)
8- Tail boom shot off (1 ping)
9- Tail Boom shot off (1 ping)
10- Radiator hit- RTB (1 ping)
11- both engine killed and TAIL BOOM SHOT OFF (5 pings) :mad:
12- augered fighting a Spit 9 ( I was afraid my tail boomb would get shot off) :D
Hodo
-
Yea... now I CAN SEE where multi hits on any part of a plane w/cannon would mean the end of a tail section, 38 included. I some how have a hard time thinking that ONE ping would always mean the end. The tail is an all metal stucture designed to take the abuse of high airspeeds... vibrations etc. The hit would most likely distort the metal perhaps sometimes lessening the control surface or maybe not even that. I COULD also see where ONE hit w/a CANNON too could every now and then take off the rear stablizer totaly...but NOT a .50 cal.
I wish the damage generation for the 38 could be looked into.
xBAT
-
Same for the FW190 A and D series engines and P38 engines. HTC please fix these bugs.
-
I will repeat myself ... since when is there a corrélation between the number of ping heard and the number of projectiles your plane got ?
Last night I got a private msg from a guys saying (in substance) "lucky one ping hispano bastard" but on my FE I seen about 10 flash and fired about 40 shell ... who is wrong him or me ?
-
Straffo, I'd say its a mixed bag... visual cues in game are not fail safe with the net and its inconsitencies.
The safe bet is to film it and then look at how you died from a 3rd person perspective and SEE perhaps what THEY see?
There is a basis for some skeptism here though concerning the damage model. It happens FAR to reqularly for it to always be net related...
xBAT
-
well ...
The safe bet is to film it and then look at how you died from a 3rd person perspective and SEE perhaps what THEY see?
I don't really care :)
If I'm geting killed it's either because I sucked or because I sucked ;)
-
Yes... and no. I often die because I allowed an individual to gain my 6... or perhaps my SA was bad or perhaps I dived in just not caring. I will not claim to be some uber pilot..even a good pilot. The point of this is simply that a random deflection shot from someone shouldnt always end up with a 38's tail flopping away in the breeze. THATS my point.
Thanks for your input though... its very insightful. :)
xBAT
-
Well, I hit you with over 10 20mm shells from the C.205 last night xBat. You just lost your engine I believe then stalled into the ground.
Audio cues aren't really indicating what the other guy is hitting you with.
-SW
-
Well... I dont think you hit me with 10 20mm's...if so I hope i'd lose more than an engine :). I do rem alot of pings which made me think you where out of 20's...I was very wrong it seemed..lol :). I am not debating this at all. I am not trying to do anything beyond asking that the damage model simply be reviewed. The hardcore 38 group has brought this subject up before...I am simply stiring the pot abit and stoking the fire.
xBAT
P.S. I dont suppose you where firing both MG's and cannon and only hitting with one? Or perhaps I/or you where lagging? I really do remember that low fight, which was alot of fun and those MG sounding pings...
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
-
Somewhere between 7 and 10 20mms, since I only fire cannons in a cannon armed plane I'm certain that's all I hit you with in the head on.
I realise what you are asking for, I'm just trying to indicate that the audio representation of you being shot up usually does not coincide with the same amount of hits you received from the other guy.
That's all. :)
-SW
-
Well... your post answered my edit/question...lol. Yea... thats a real possiablity being this is the net. I rem something about AW3 having a "packet" priorty so to speak where "pings" where often discarded for more "important" info?
xBAT
-
Well you could of heard the MG sound pings too, because I will fire those if I don't have a definite aim on you.. that way I don't waste my cannon rounds.
A while back all audio sounds were played after you got nailed, but sometimes you'd be sitting the tower still hearing hits coming in 5 seconds after you died. So I believe they discarded that and chose to play the hit sounds up until you die.
-SW
-
Originally posted by SWulfe:
Well you could of heard the MG sound pings too, because I will fire those if I don't have a definite aim on you.. that way I don't waste my cannon rounds.
A while back all audio sounds were played after you got nailed, but sometimes you'd be sitting the tower still hearing hits coming in 5 seconds after you died. So I believe they discarded that and chose to play the hit sounds up until you die.
-SW
Not always discarded, sometimes I get hit sounds all the way to the tower after dying...
-
What other damage could possibly happen with this present AH system?
Isnt there only 1 elevator on p38? Normally, hits for my tail remove either one of my elevators, which indicates, that the elevator is badly damaged and out of control.
Now this is exactly what happens with p38, you lose your elevator. But, you have only one of those, thanks to US engineers! I havent found out, that p38:s elevator was more fragile than any others elevator. I sometimes ping their tail with few cannon rounds, till it falls, MG:s aint doing much to it.
So, wheres the problem? That 1 ping and crack is BS, we can test that in h2h anytime.
Radiators seem to be fragile, but we have 190:s engines going instantly off from few 50cal rounds, so youre not alone with these problems.
-
Well... thanks for that statement. Your expertise is much appreciated.
Food for thought... if they look at perhaps SOME of what I mentioned perhaps the effects could roll over to YOUR favorite plane set..ehhh? I am not claiming to be an expert..as I stated. I am simply stating a percieved problem that many others seem to agree with.
As far as YOUR percieved hits..maybe they are NOT hitting... perhaps there is some net lag w/you OR the target at times. We really have no idea as we cant SEE the data. We can only state what we percieve... thats all.
Edit: Oh and if I LOSE my ele does this mean I lose my flight ablity? Does my plane fall backwards? No...I think Not. Lose your ele in anthor plane.. you can fly. The ENTIRE tail section leaves the plane... always when hit.
xBAT
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
-
First off I dont fly the 38. I admire folks that can and do well in it (both of em).
Secondly, one thing always strikes me about the 38s I kill: I always see that damned hor stab fall off as the plane spirals in.
Y
-
do yourself a simple test. Grab a .303 armed spit or a c202, get to within d400 of a buddy's 38 in H2H (both players with cable or better to ensure a minimal lag issue) and fire a short burst of 303 from left to right (a horizontal "spray" pattern).
7 out of 10 times in average the bullets will snap the tail off almost instantly with 1 or 2 pings on it, in many other cases 1 engine will quit or you will rip off a wing/wingtip. Very, very seldomly will you just get an aleiron damage/flap damage/elevator damage/engine damage (fuel leak, oil leak).
-
Tac,
good test plan!
How about you and BatDog go to Training or H2H.
Do about 50 sorties and get us some numbers.
Let's put some test data on this for Pyro and HiTech.
This is the fastest way to get the 38s fixed - if they need fixen.
Nexus
-
Sounds good.
xBAT
-
Originally posted by Bodhi:
Hey Citabria,
I am rebuilding a 38 now, and I hate to tell you this, but a 20mm in the base of the tail booms will wreak a lot of havoc with the structure, to the point of failure IMHO. The Horizontal may take some damage, but the problem is the distortion caused by the impact will probably inhibit the control surface movement. Just an FYI for yas.
;)
This from a guy who is rebuilding a real P-38.
I do think that it is a bit too easy to hit the narrow booms though.
Something else, AH has way, WAY to many aircraft losses to gross structural failure. Look a gun camera footage, in most cases the aircraft is destroyed via fire or unidentified damage that causes a loss of flight control. Sometimes there is massive structural failure. In AH it is almost always massive structural failure.
Major bits on ALL aircraft in AH come off to easily. It only takes 12 .50 bullets to remove a Lancaster's wing. The Lanc was known as a tough bird, much like the B-17. According to at least one German ace it took 6-7 30mm hits to rmove a B-17's wing. It seems that the structural strength of some, maybe all, aircraft are undermodeled. I don't think that a .50 cal bullet does half the damage of a 30mm shell.
At the same time fire and engine damage (unless it kills the engine outright) do not have any immediate effect.
Control cables are never severed (leaving you with a control surface that is doing what the wind tells it to do) or control surfaces that get jammed (possibly at a high deflection) and reduce or eliminate flight control of the aircraft.
I would love to see a more detailed damage system in AH.
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
-
Karnak - you Hijacker!
I agree with all your points, but start your own thread about damage model.
Nexus
-
I agree that a single 20mm hit or a couple of .50's on the tail boom would rip it off, but imo, in AH this happening at such extreme angle shots/long range I find it hard to believe people are so LUCKY to hit something that is extremely narrow and vital rather than hitting something big (like the wingspan or main structure)...so continously. Heck, ive seen a zeke eat more lead on a d100 straight 6 and level against 20mm than a 38 at d900 vs .303's!
-
Just to add some perspective to this discussion. :)
I was watching a history channel show the other night on "The Guns of WWII", which was a history of the infantry weapons and how they were used.
Part of the show was a film clip showing a test of a Browning .30 MG (or maybe it was a Browning BAR .308 caliber, I don't remember since they were showing the results not the gun) firing standard AP ammo at a reinforced concrete wall approximately 4-6 inches thick. They were firing short controled bursts of 5-15 rounds, and then retargeting a new portion of the wall.
The results were very impressive.
The gun was literally blowing holes entirely thru the wall, of about 2ft in diameter.
Now should we start to discuss what .50 cal and 20mm weapons (much MUCH more power than .30's) will do to aluminum and steel framed aircraft? ;)
-
Verm take a .308 and shoot to cast-iron plate and see what happens. Next take steel or aluminium plate and repeat same.
-
I'm well aware of what a .308 will do to metal plates. Depending on strength and thickness, and many other variables, it will do anything from bounce off and make a dent, to make a hole, to even shattering the plating.
I've shot quite a few different military weapons (5.56mm, 7.62mm NATO, 7.62 Soviet, .30cal carbine, and many many more including some really high power hunting rifles) at "real targets", from wood frame houses, old vehicles, to even sandbagged bunkers. I'm quite familiar with the effects of weapons on real targets.
For instance a Soviet 7.62mm x 39mm steel core round from my chinese made AK-47, will go all the way thru a VW Minibus from the back and into the engine block, which suprised me considering that it is a relatively low velocity round.
So what was your point?
-
The point of this post has nothing to do w/the effectivenss of wep's being used. It was simply posted to bring into discussion the precieved easy, high probabilty for various "kill" shots on a 38. These being the entire tail section leaving,engine's destroyed etc.
Lets not get all fired up here about this... that wasnt the purpose.
Thank you
xBAT
-
My point was different materials absorbs bullet strikes different ways, hard cast iron might broke in parts while bullet might penetrate "softer" steel or aluminium plate without any bigger damage, just leaving a small sign "I was here".
-
p38s were tough customers.
i think they should be toughened up in the engine tail and wing area. same goes for p47 inner wings and tail.
there was even an incident of a p38 and 109 coliding headon.
all that remained of the 109 was a mangled twisted burning fuselage. the p38 was chopped up by the 109s prop from the engine to the tail on one side every few feet, the rear boom asembly was mangled badly by the colision on one side yet the p38 tough as it was returned to base and belly landed... the pilot stood up got out and passed out from shock
the inherent problem with this damage model AH has is that it is incomplete and unrealistic. it emphasizes de-winging and removal of pieces that didnt often come unglued in fights instead of what the real weakness was... the pilot, the fuel tanks, the ammunition.
it is because of this lack of realistic damage that lightweight turnfighters like the zeke and spits and n1k2 are every bit as tough and tougher in some cases than the heavy duty B&z iron planes.
what happens when you hit a fuel tank in Aces High?
it leaks.
if you hit it again does it catch fire?
once every few billion times it will.
basically almost never.
even the zipo zeke wont flame up very often when fuel tanks are hit. always a white trail is streaming from almost all zekes in a furball and then the occasional flaming zeke that flies around for a minute or so while it burns.
-
Besides, there is only one spot on the tail booms where ONE shell can rip the tail boom..and thats on the joints. How odd it seems that AH has joint-seeking bullets :) ;)
38's tail WAS fragile, but not as pathetic as it is in AH methinks.
Hey Cit, Xbat, 38/P-61 geeks, lets get HT a case of that cheap scotch he likes, maybe he'll look at it in "2 weeks" ;)
-
Cit.
No cracks about burning A6M5s I am usualy one of those burning zeros. :D But I still think that the planes in AH are not model correctly but its IMPOSSIBLE to get them perfect considering none of us ever flew one in a combat situation. I do love the P38 in RL but in the game I have come to loath it for its impropper modeling of the tail boom. I also think several other planes damage is way over modeled but U also have to look into the angle of attk on most shots the range and type of guns fired. I do think a 20mm will rip the tail section away from a P38 but it would have to be from the side at about 50m :P.
Hodo