Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mietla on August 02, 2008, 01:39:00 PM
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Any problem is/can be expressed as a symbol relationships and the solution is expected to be in the same form.
Why would you ever need a calculator at the exam.
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Written numbers are symbols. How you use them to present a problem that solving could require the use of a calculator to provide the correct written number (symbol) to answer the question.
Language of any type is also based on symbols that the word actually stands for something than can be communicated.
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<= when was at school calculators were not permitted in exams. All working had to be demonstrated manually on the exam paper.
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Well, the math we had to do through out college would have been pretty freaking difficult without calculators.
When you start applying calculus and matrix algebra to structural systems, it's often easy to get a final solution in symbols only.
Plugging the numbers in, though, is often anything but simple.
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I understand the need for calculators in the more difficult maths. With those types of classes the test is to see if you can perform the functions as much as it whether or not you which processes to perform at correct times. So I understand.
But I agree that we are allowing public school students who are in the more basic of classes to use them. Basic Geometry and algebra and Geometry and Algebra one and like classes should not be using them in my opinion. Those can be performed on paper.
I think the original poster was referring to public schools (high, middle or intermediate, and elementary). My daughter is entering 3rd grade this coming year and they have already told her it is ok to use and have been letting them use calculators in class and home. I however refuse to let her do basic math with a calculator. I wonder why youngsters graduating now can't count change, they need the register to tell them how much to give back.
Very disappointing
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I understand the need for calculators in the more difficult maths. With those types of classes the test is to see if you can perform the functions as much as it whether or not you which processes to perform at correct times. So I understand.
But I agree that we are allowing public school students who are in the more basic of classes to use them. Basic Geometry and algebra and Geometry and Algebra one and like classes should not be using them in my opinion. Those can be performed on paper.
I think the original poster was referring to public schools (high, middle or intermediate, and elementary). My daughter is entering 3rd grade this coming year and they have already told her it is OK to use and have been letting them use calculators in class and home. I however refuse to let her do basic math with a calculator. I wonder why youngsters graduating now can't count change, they need the register to tell them how much to give back.
Very disappointing
I agree. When I as in elementary, no calculators allowed. 7Th and 8Th grade, no calculators. Even Alg. I (One) didn't allow calculators. Geometry started letting us, and by Alg II we needed it. The problem is, while it CAN be done on paper, we would run out of time going through all of the work on paper. By Alg II and Trig, using a calculator won't fix your work. It doesn't make it easier, just faster so we can do more in the same amount of time.
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Once you get into the higher math, having a calculator is not going to save you if you have no grasp of what you are putting into it.
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Any problem is/can be expressed as a symbol relationships and the solution is expected to be in the same form.
Why would you ever need a calculator at the exam.
Ow, reading this hurt my brain.
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Once you get into the higher math, having a calculator is not going to save you if you have no grasp of what you are putting into it.
True, but having a grasp of what you are doing won't save you if you don't have a calculator handy.
It's kind of hard to get through a 5 question test in an hour, when it takes you an hour to do 1 completely by hand.
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the number of questions is irrelevant. Instead of 17 stupid (yes/no/maybe) questions, give them one problem to solve to show their thinking. A finished solution is not necessary to ace the test.
In "my" time we've never been asked for a number. As a matter of fact if you've used one (even a universal constant) as a number it was BAD. A pi is a pi (not 3.2415...) an e is an e (not 2.7...) etc.
A multiple choice test is the worst thing that ever happened in history of education. A test has to show your thinking process (can be successful even if not complete) not mindless guessing at answers.
Not to mention that most of the multiple answer test are designed to pass morons and incompetents. They just take a right answer (usually a f* number) and the surround it with three obviously ridiculous ones to make it easy on morons. But obviously they do underestimate the morons.
How much does the liter of water weigh?
* same as a cat
* 1 kilogram
* 10,000,000,000 liters
* 17 volts
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yeah, I know it is 3.14... not 3.24... so do not bug me
As a matter of fact this just illustrates my point. When I say pi I do not have to remember/know it's real value. Who cares? The solution is still correct, but with the calc approach ... you're f*ed
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I guess it depends on what and at what level you're studying something. When I was in undergraduate engineering, we could certainly use a calculator for tests. We were even allowed a single piece of paper with as many formulas and notes as we could fit on it. We had to show all of our work and thought process in solving a problem. The object was not to be a rote memory robot, but to be a problem solver. You could get the numerical answer correct, but have a substantial penalty assessed if the process was flawed or could have led to an error because it failed to consider some part of the problem that may have been slightly different.
I should add that calculators were new and very expensive back then :)
To expedite a process at higher levels is fine, but no one can justify 8 year-old kids using a calculator for arithmetic.
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yeah, I know it is 3.14... not 3.24... so do not bug me
As a matter of fact this just illustrates my point. When I say pi I do not have to remember/know it's real value. Who cares? The solution is still correct, but with the calc approach ... you're f*ed
But see, my calculator has the button pi, so I CAN use a calculator with it. Though really, as far as not using numbers... there are way too many letters in my math homework already!!! :cry
I hate math. Im not good at it. And my textbook, unless im reading it VERY wrong, just told me 2+3=1, so im just completely lost now... :(
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But see, my calculator has the button pi, so I CAN use a calculator with it. Though really, as far as not using numbers... there are way too many letters in my math homework already!!! :cry
I hate math. Im not good at it. And my textbook, unless im reading it VERY wrong, just told me 2+3=1, so im just completely lost now... :(
that was my point. What are YOU worth without your calculator?
I'm hiring a thinking entity. For a calculator I can pay one time.
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It's kind of hard to get through a 5 question test in an hour, when it takes you an hour to do 1 completely by hand.
Dang. I got a headache just seeing the possibility of doing math that difficult. <S> to y'all that can stand to do it.
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My intermediate chem class required them....and for a freaking good reason.
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Dang. I got a headache just seeing the possibility of doing math that difficult. <S> to y'all that can stand to do it.
Mom.,
Math is the easiest thing there IS. It is natural, like breathing. eating and (you know what). The very purpose people invented more and more (number not internet) domains, was to help solve the problems they've faced.
At first adding chickens to chickens was enough(natural numbers) , but when you start to take them away you'll soon need the negative number (integers). As soon as you have a partner in your deals you'll need to DIVIDE the profits (welcome fractions) and so on ...
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My intermediate chem class required them....and for a freaking good reason.
What was the purpose of the test?
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as for Dima, probably counting moles in a glass of stolicznaya
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as for Dima, probably counting moles in a glass of stolicznaya
Close :D Tests are timed and without knowledge of how to properly solve calc would be useless anyhow...
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Mom.,
Math is the easiest thing there IS. It is natural, like breathing. eating and (you know what). The very purpose people invented more and more (number not internet) domains, was to help solve the problems they've faced.
At first adding chickens to chickens was enough(natural numbers) , but when you start to take them away you'll soon need the negative number (integers). As soon as you have a partner in your deals you'll need to DIVIDE the profits (welcome fractions) and so on ...
Yep.. Math is just another language, and easier still, it's illustrated all around us. One need only be perceptive enough.
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Some can't do math.
Others (me included) can see the groups and the answers with out the calculations. :aok
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Some can't do math.
I am one of them.
I fell behind when my 8th grade math teacher refused to teach us everything. So, I was never taught pre-alg. However, I tested (somehow) into alg I the next year, and have been advancing ever since. Im two years ahead of my grade in math, but just barely passing by the skin of my teeth, with a C/REALLY low B average. When it comes to math, Im completely lost. But a calculator doesn't help. All a calculator does is basic calculations faster than you can. I get the basics. Its once you start dealing with all of the other theories in it that I get lost.
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Engineering students have used calculators during tests since before Hewlett Packard and Texas Insturments were companies.
(http://web.mit.edu/esg/www/images/photo_albums/people/slide.jpg)
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Woohoo!
The good old slide-rules!
I used to have an awesome wooden one from the '60's (now one of the things my ex may or may not have kept or sold :furious )
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I have one of these around in a box somewhere.
It works better than a HP when adding up feet, inches, and fractional inches.
(http://www.omrit.com/pics/valiant.jpg)
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I am one of them.
I'm another. Was really great at math stuff. In 7th grade I got 100% on everything (tests, exams, homework, quizes). I only got a 99% once and my teacher had a little fun with me on that. Ended 7th grade with a 100% overall grade! That only included a little bit of Pre-Algebra. Then came 8th grade and Pre-Algebra. Think I ended the year with a low B. Then came 9th grade with Algebra I. I sucked at it, and my teacher went so fast through everything and refused to slow down. When anyone asked her if she could go over that again she just said "I'm not slowing down just for one person. Just skip it and do this." I did ok the first half the year, but the second half I couldn't keep up, and I barley passed! I had to leave that school and finish the year home-schooled just to pass! This year (10th) wasn't any easier, and it takes me longer to understand AND remember something than someone else. Most other kids can learn stuff and remember it in about 2-5 days. For me, it takes about 1-2 weeks because I'm a bit slow and have one of the worst memories in the world! I can't remember much about what I did the other day, and would have to go back 1 lesson to remember it. So, even as Cyber-School'd I had alot of trouble with Algebra.
Compared to many other people, I'm stupid. The only things I can do is computer stuff, and most things electronical. I can fix my computer, or make a game work on my PS3, but anything else I just don't get because I'm not too smart. :( Think I might have A.D.D. too.
Still don't know if I passed 10th grade yet.
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me and maths parted company as soon as they introduced letters ...:(
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bah...
W/S=qCLwhere q=1/2pVmax2and CL=CLmax
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if you can't do math a calculator won't help, you will not know what buttons to push or when.
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I have one of these around in a box somewhere.
It works better than a HP when adding up feet, inches, and fractional inches.
(http://www.omrit.com/pics/valiant.jpg)
WOW! That brings back a memory. I had one of those mechanical calculators back in the mid 70's. Was a fun little gadget. Worked kind of like an abacus. You used your pen to slide the numbers up and down and read the sums in the holes at the bottom of each column.
That's a hoot!
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I had a standard slip stick and have used a circular one as well. They were nice but I have to admit I like a calculator better. A calculator made statistics endurable, barely. I did far better understanding the concepts of the statistical study than the mathematical crunching of the data and applying the proper formulae.
I'm one of the math challenged folks. It takes me a while to get the concepts and they seem to leave fairly quickly once learned. I did fine in HS Algebra and Geometry. I am able to apply the formula and theorems but do not have an intrinsic understanding of the symbology and it's relationship. After that I seemed to have lost it. Once I have the formula down I can use it but can't "visualize" mathematical concepts of any higher level. Taking HS physics was the first really big brick wall I hit and had to drop the class. It's a shame as I like science I just can't calculate it. My son on the other hand thought calculus was fun. He sure as hell didn't get that from his mom or I. :confused:
Folks have some kind of learning ability that they can exploit. Math just isn't mine. I'm great at intuitive things like understanding the relationships of the parts of a mechanical device but don't ask me to do much more than calculate the displacement.
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[Well, the math we had to do through out college would have been pretty freaking difficult without calculators.
When you start applying calculus and matrix algebra to structural systems, it's often easy to get a final solution in symbols only.
Plugging the numbers in, though, is often anything but simple.
As my physics course at uni progressed, we saw numbers less and less. By the end, they were rarely used.
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Taking HS physics was the first really big brick wall I hit and had to drop the class. It's a shame as I like science I just can't calculate it. My son on the other hand thought calculus was fun. He sure as hell didn't get that from his mom or I. :confused:
Does he do tutoring? lol. I'm taking (Assuming I pass Trig this year) AP Physics and Calculus next year. I'm terrified already.
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slide rule, 2 X 2 = 3.9999.
sorry, old slide rule joke. :lol