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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ROX on August 04, 2008, 06:52:22 AM

Title: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: ROX on August 04, 2008, 06:52:22 AM
Sitiation:

You see an enemy aircraft attempting to land.  It's already down, breaks on, and coming to a stop.

The plane is deadstick...engine dead.  The pilot is wounded, blood on the cockpit glass.





Would you?:

Vulch it or not vulch it.





Yes or no question, no need for "War & Peace" replies.





ROX
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Hap on August 04, 2008, 06:54:23 AM
I never knew you could see blood and oil from our end.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ghosth on August 04, 2008, 07:19:25 AM
A vulch is a vulch, period.

Some say that vulching someone landing is worse than vulching someone takeing off.
I disagree, at least the guy landing got to get up and have his fun.

Would I shoot him or not? Depends on many factors.

Base ack up or down? Full moon?
Is the landing plane someone I know? Fought with recently? Respect? Don't respect?
Did I see him kill 2 of my squad mates and chase him back to his home base?

All of these would effect what I'd do. There is no one answer.





Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: avionix on August 04, 2008, 07:21:27 AM
I have been vulched upon landing.  Personally, I wouldn't vulch that person.  On takeoff, YES!   Landing NO!!!  My .02
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: killnu on August 04, 2008, 07:22:38 AM
depends on my mood...
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: thndregg on August 04, 2008, 07:27:11 AM
As Ghost said, too many variables involved.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: jerkins on August 04, 2008, 07:36:33 AM
Nope!
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Bruv119 on August 04, 2008, 07:51:50 AM
what goes around comes around!

I tend to refrain from vulching the poor guy, but if he has shot some of my squaddies or at myself and hoped he would live to tell the tale thats another matter.  He is going to get popped!

You have to fully appreciate that as soon as you spawn in its game on until you tower out.  Its wild out there.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Oldman731 on August 04, 2008, 07:55:14 AM
Vulch it or not vulch it.

Not.

- oldman
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Jackal1 on August 04, 2008, 07:55:31 AM
Vulching is fun and entertaining for the whole family. :)
It`s a cartoon plane game. No biggy.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Lusche on August 04, 2008, 08:00:48 AM
Depends on mood, circumstances and what I think who is in that plane ;)
Not probable, but possible...

BTW, I find the connection between thread's title "moral & ethics" and it's actually question "vulching" way disproportionate.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Kweassa on August 04, 2008, 08:10:14 AM

 Depends on whether I can get to him first, or not.

 
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Bronk on August 04, 2008, 08:13:22 AM
Depends on whether I can get to him first, or not.

 
lmao  :aok
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: storch on August 04, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
depends on who the player is but generally no.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: BoilerDown on August 04, 2008, 08:19:41 AM
A vulch is a vulch, period.

Some say that vulching someone landing is worse than vulching someone takeing off.
I disagree, at least the guy landing got to get up and have his fun.

Would I shoot him or not? Depends on many factors.

Base ack up or down? Full moon?
Is the landing plane someone I know? Fought with recently? Respect? Don't respect?
Did I see him kill 2 of my squad mates and chase him back to his home base?

All of these would effect what I'd do. There is no one answer.

This.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: evenhaim on August 04, 2008, 08:21:21 AM
Depends on mood, circumstances and what I think who is in that plane ;)

BTW, I find the connection between thread's title "moral & ethics" and it's actually question "vulching" way disproportionate.
would you voolch me?  :(
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: zoozoo on August 04, 2008, 08:22:22 AM
if the pilot ran from a good 1v1 then yes, if not then no  :aok
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Lusche on August 04, 2008, 08:25:00 AM
would you voolch me?  :(

That's a difficult question... you are, more or less, a nice guy (in a way)...but then, you are a Muppet too... (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Thinking/thinking-020.gif)
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Max on August 04, 2008, 08:29:52 AM
A crippled plane, wheels down gets a free pass.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: FiLtH on August 04, 2008, 08:33:45 AM
             You can tell if a guy is landing, unless its a huge mass of planes. As long as I can tell the difference between a lifter and a lander  I dont kill the lander.  The way I look at it, he's probably outta gas/ammo and slow so what challenge is it there.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: gpwurzel on August 04, 2008, 08:35:32 AM
having been killed either ditching or engine out a few times recently, all I can say is....do I have rockets and bombs????? ;)


Errr, seriously....probably not......


Wurzel
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Infidelz on August 04, 2008, 09:25:43 AM
Definitely. If I can HO all the better.

Infidelz
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: 1Boner on August 04, 2008, 09:40:40 AM
Landing?

No.

Unless it was another P-51 I had to chase for a sector or two.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Gixer on August 04, 2008, 09:45:22 AM
Generally no, but not a scenario I come across as I never damage anyone.  :devil


<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Anaxogoras on August 04, 2008, 09:47:02 AM
Yes, to finish the job if I were the one who caused that damage or if he killed a squad mate.
No, in all other cases.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: bongaroo on August 04, 2008, 09:48:20 AM
Depends.  Since I usually don't actively participate in the vulches probably not.  If it's some n00b I just saw HO a squaddy to end up the way he is than yes; I have revenge issues sometimes  :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Goat1 on August 04, 2008, 09:56:56 AM
I've battled my wounded plane and myself to a successful landing or ditch, just to have someone
kill me. So yes, I would blast away at him

Goat
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: doc1kelley on August 04, 2008, 09:57:06 AM
Well I've heard replies stating that it depends on who it is and if they ran and such.  I gotta ask this question... Just how do you frigging know who it was or if it was the same plane that ran from a fight?  You can't interject these variables into a question of if you would vultch a landing plane.  Seems like folks are reaching to justify the practice, and it's a clear question of if you do or if you don't.    I've been nailed landing so many times that I don't even have to think about the answer, I'd kill him dead if I got the chance. hehehhee


All the Best...
    Jay
 awDoc1

Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: stephen on August 04, 2008, 09:57:22 AM
Vulch,  :aok
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: humble on August 04, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
It's an event taken out of context....

99.9% of the time no, even now I'll let a cripple go most of the time...

But theres an exception to every rule, easily 100 or so guys I'd gleefully vulch :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Lusche on August 04, 2008, 10:05:16 AM
Well I've heard replies stating that it depends on who it is and if they ran and such.  I gotta ask this question... Just how do you frigging know who it was or if it was the same plane that ran from a fight?  

Often you can. If you keep him in sight all the time you know it's still the same that "ran" (which, for me, isn't any reason to get upset and trying to vulch him at all), or the one that just shot your squaddie out of the sky (which also revealed the player's identity)


Two practical examples:
- I know from other teammates or just by monitoring CH200 that Gianlupo is around.. I see a crippled Ki-84 trying to land. Most probably I would let him.
- I know that a ever complaining/whining/insulting  CH200 jockey like CMustard or any of his current incarnations is around, due to the same reasons. I've been told hes in a F4U... I see a F4U trying to land... go figure.  :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: TwentyFo on August 04, 2008, 10:14:58 AM
I will vulch you no matter what. Not the fact that I need a kill.....there are usually plenty around. But the fact that it is hilarious. I play this game for personal entertainment and that could be one of the most entertaining aspects of the game. :aok
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Soulyss on August 04, 2008, 10:16:48 AM
If it's a squadie then the answer it's a no-brainer, of course I'm going to vulch them. :)   If not a sqaudie then mitigating circumstances would come into play but generally no, I'd like to think I wouldn't in that particular case.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Angus on August 04, 2008, 10:29:12 AM
In RL, probably not. Have the humiliated enemy pilot bleed and bring bad morale to his fellows like Sailor Malan would have put it.
In AH...depending on acks :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: WWM on August 04, 2008, 11:04:24 AM
I have only vulched once in the last year and it was this exact situation.  Guy tried to vulch me landing and missed, getting hit by ack in his attempt.  I re-up, chase him back to his base and vulched him on landing.  Then he had the nerve to complain about it.

So, No. (Unless.......)
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: mensa180 on August 04, 2008, 11:07:54 AM
No, the exception being if they did something amazingly dweeby, like coming in with alt, and made a HO pass every minute or so after extending for 3k, only to finally run to ack.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: waystin2 on August 04, 2008, 11:15:24 AM
Vulch.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Waldo on August 04, 2008, 11:25:19 AM
 Got vulched on landing, Hopped in field gun and nailed him   :rofl
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: CAP1 on August 04, 2008, 11:28:59 AM
no. if he made it that far, he's earned any kills he has
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Steve on August 04, 2008, 11:48:47 AM
If he's the only target in the area, doesn't already have a pile on him, and I'm not friendly with them.... kill 'em.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: APDrone on August 04, 2008, 11:55:33 AM
If the lander is an LA-7, Spit ( any ), Tempest/Typhoon,  or Hurri-2C, vulch.  No quarter ever given.

Other than that.. depends.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Jaccpot on August 04, 2008, 12:15:30 PM
For me if I see RED your DEAD no matter what. If im over the air field and see some one landing or takin off lights out for them :devil :devil

Simple fact is because they would do it to me!!!
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: VansCrew1 on August 04, 2008, 12:16:15 PM
If it's a perk plane yes. If i know it's someone ill piss off by killing them yes. But other then that i would not risk damage to my own plane.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2008, 12:41:46 PM
Vulch.  Vulching a plane landing pisses off the guy more than vulching him as he takes off, especially if they have a multi-kill sortie they're trying to land.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2008, 12:43:52 PM
all I can say is....do I have rockets and bombs????? ;)


Errr, seriously....probably not......


Wurzel

Last week Murdr and I were flying over some enemy base vulching with rockets.  Only managed to get 3 kills that way but it seemed like Murdr was scoring vulch kills with each rocket.  Was funny to watch.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2008, 12:44:48 PM
Generally no, but not a scenario I come across as I never damage anyone.  :devil


<S>...-Gixer


that's because a P-38J will zoom in and steal your kill before you can do any damage.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: ian5440 on August 04, 2008, 12:50:26 PM
Last week Murdr and I were flying over some enemy base vulching with rockets.  Only managed to get 3 kills that way but it seemed like Murdr was scoring vulch kills with each rocket.  Was funny to watch.


ack-ack

it is so much fun vulching with rockets, i remeber once i bombed some bomber with a 500lber that was just sitting on the egde of the runway looking like he had no idea what to do  :D  :rolleyes:

got 3 kills :)
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Messiah on August 04, 2008, 12:53:45 PM
depends on if I knew who it was or not
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on August 04, 2008, 01:15:01 PM
If i watch you gundown 2-4 of my country men, and i have to fallow you all the way back to your field, you will end up dead or crash land without gear before i get'yuh.

All depends on if they deserve it or not, if they shoot me down 4 times in a row, then i most likely wont care enough to track them back to base for revenge, something about punchin' me in the jaw will have no effect on my persona, hurt my men/family/squaddies, you are one dead duck.


 :rock
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Raptor on August 04, 2008, 01:16:18 PM
If I know the person who is landing was a dweeby player that ran from fights, yes. If it was a person that actually fought, no.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: ink on August 04, 2008, 01:25:36 PM
easy NO

and i have been vulched taken off and on landing, still dont seem right, if i am here for the fight why would i ?

but each player has his way of it, and its good for them!!
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: CHAPPY on August 04, 2008, 02:00:36 PM
Landing or not VULCH IT :O
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: John Curnutte on August 04, 2008, 02:02:40 PM
In the words of an old wise one ( Its a dog eat dog world out there and sometimes you are wearing milk bone underwear ) but really its on the situation at hand and sometimes I have a heart , and its also been done to me many times . So its a toss up . :rock :devil :salute :o :aok :noid
Nutte
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: SunBat on August 04, 2008, 02:06:14 PM
You didn't say if this was in cartoon plane land or real life.  

If it's real life you speak of then yes I would vulch it.  

If it is cartoon airplanes you speak of then by all means I would not vulch it because that would be immoral and unethical b/c it is serious business to take a cartoon life that can be instantly reincarnated.  
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Guppy35 on August 04, 2008, 02:06:47 PM
Speaking as one who often ends up sitting in a smoking wreck on the ground, because either half a wing is gone and I've had no choice or I've been so slow that i didn't blow up when I hit.

I'd say about 80% of the time I'll get vulched while I sit there.  I've gotten a number of proxies that way too as they auger in while salivating over the free kill :)

With that in mind my first instinct if I see a guy trying to get it down in a plane that can no longer fight, I let him go.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Hazzer on August 04, 2008, 02:18:16 PM
No
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2008, 02:29:03 PM
If the guy gave a good effort, more so if I know who it is, I'll let him land it.

If this same guy came down from 15k, did nothing but pick/run and eventually overshot, I wouldn't let the run to his ack save him.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Lusche on August 04, 2008, 02:35:15 PM
If this same guy came down from 15k, did nothing but pick/run and eventually overshot, I wouldn't let the run to his ack save him.

That would explain why people are always trying to vulch me on landing  :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Zazen13 on August 04, 2008, 03:04:39 PM
Just don't vulch at all then you don't have to concern yourself with splitting hairs, works for me... ;)
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Erkel on August 04, 2008, 03:09:45 PM
I'm old, I'm slow and I'm half blind.
It's about the only way I CAN get a kill...
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Rich46yo on August 04, 2008, 04:07:59 PM
I cant answer that cause Im never in that situation. Im just not a vulcher, or not much a one. Thats not saying its wrong or anything cause capping a base is a perfectly sound tactic. Its the prolonged vulches for score padding that is kinda lame.

If it was a cripple still in the air that I'd just beaten in ATA and he was pretty helpless??

Yeah, I'd shoot him down. Maybe I wouldnt if I knew him but how do you really know in general combat?
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Sgtlead on August 04, 2008, 04:15:27 PM
It worked for Chuck Yeager when he vulched a 262 that was landing :aok

As for me.  Been done to me  so many times, do unto others as they do unto you :salute
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: dentin on August 04, 2008, 04:22:29 PM
A crippled plane, wheels down gets a free pass.

As above.  :aok
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Bosco123 on August 04, 2008, 04:23:40 PM
usually I let them land and on 200 if they have kills I say "ur lucky wtg" unless its a 262 :t
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Gixer on August 04, 2008, 05:44:54 PM
that's because a P-38J will zoom in and steal your kill before you can do any damage.


ack-ack

But only about 1 kill in 1000 and one day soon I'm going to pay back any tucker I find in a P-38.  :devil


<S>...-Gixer

Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: crockett on August 04, 2008, 05:53:10 PM
As for the orginal question.. Answer is of course "No". I wouldn't vulch someone landing much the same as I wont vuclh someone taking off.


Last week Murdr and I were flying over some enemy base vulching with rockets.  Only managed to get 3 kills that way but it seemed like Murdr was scoring vulch kills with each rocket.  Was funny to watch.


ack-ack

I guess that pretty much explains Murdr's stance on my 30 second idea..

go figure.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2008, 05:58:43 PM
As for the orginal question.. Answer is of course "No". I wouldn't vulch someone landing much the same as I wont vuclh someone taking off.


I guess that pretty much explains Murdr's stance on my 30 second idea..

go figure.

No, I don't think it does.  It was just a case where two P-38Ls showed up at a base and all viable ground targets were already taken out.  Kind of like being all dressed up and nowhere to go.  Then I heard Murdr cry out on squad channel "Rocket vulch!" and then the fun started.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: crockett on August 04, 2008, 06:27:25 PM
No, I don't think it does.  It was just a case where two P-38Ls showed up at a base and all viable ground targets were already taken out.  Kind of like being all dressed up and nowhere to go.  Then I heard Murdr cry out on squad channel "Rocket vulch!" and then the fun started.


ack-ack

Yea I'm just making fun..  ;)
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: AWwrgwy on August 04, 2008, 06:41:41 PM
I would come screaming in, shoot at them, miss, and auger.


wrngway
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Ack-Ack on August 04, 2008, 07:01:47 PM
I would come screaming in, shoot at them, miss, and auger.


wrngway

I was trying to land my P-38 the other night in LW arena, I get a check six just as I'm about to flare for touch down, look behind me and I see a P-51D diving on me.  I raise my gears, firewall the throttle and hit WEP and broke towards the bomber hanger at my 1 oclock and proceed to fly through the hanger then I see a proxy kill credit.  The guy tried to follow me through the hangers and he didn't quite make it.  I then flew around and landed safely.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: crockett on August 04, 2008, 07:15:28 PM
I was trying to land my P-38 the other night in LW arena, I get a check six just as I'm about to flare for touch down, look behind me and I see a P-51D diving on me.  I raise my gears, firewall the throttle and hit WEP and broke towards the bomber hanger at my 1 oclock and proceed to fly through the hanger then I see a proxy kill credit.  The guy tried to follow me through the hangers and he didn't quite make it.  I then flew around and landed safely.


ack-ack

Yea I had almost the same thing happen last night.. I was fighting a lone con on the deck in my K4 but only had only 7 rounds left and had a missing flap from another fight. I then see a Spit on his way to try and pick me, so I took the first opportunity I had to exit the fight and decided to RTB. The con I was fighting didn't give chase and RTBed, however the twit in the spit chased me all the way back to my base and tried to vulch me as I landed. I watched from the tower as the ack tore off his wing and secretly laughed a bit.  :lol
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: brule2 on August 04, 2008, 07:27:10 PM
Vulch any time any place,so yes, sheesh its game not rl no one is really dieng.



 AULD
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: saantana on August 04, 2008, 07:32:27 PM
I would vulch his landing prettythang  :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: yanksfan on August 04, 2008, 08:40:13 PM
Nope
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Estes on August 04, 2008, 08:51:08 PM
no.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: pluck on August 04, 2008, 08:51:28 PM
same as others, if it was good fight/good effort, he lands.

if he was a dweeb about it.. he doesn't land in one piece.

if I saw someone landing like this, and had no engagment, I just let him go.  

On side note, sometimes it is difficult to tell who is limping back with a pw, and who is just flat out running to ack.  unless of course leaking.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: kvuo75 on August 04, 2008, 09:19:23 PM
I will vulch landings when prudent, and expect to get myself vulched when I'm landing in the MA's.


that and in the SEA.. last FSO I tried the ole "chuck yeager vulch a 262 while it's landing".. Unfortunately I ended up by myself over enemy base in a p51 with 7 262's that still had gas   :D



Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Stang on August 04, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
I did it to pacerr once.  Probably cost him a new stick or keyboard.

 :rock
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Gixer on August 04, 2008, 11:02:59 PM
I did it to pacerr once.  Probably cost him a new stick or keyboard.

 :rock

 :lol   


<S>...-Gixer
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: ColKLink on August 05, 2008, 04:31:14 AM
Just becouse said planes wheels are down, the motor is dead, the pilot is wounded,(doesnt mean the fight is over for me.) :D I think there is only 1 good choice for him,.....He must be vulched, and end his misery. I have no morals.
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: ROX on August 05, 2008, 12:02:17 PM
Thanks folks, I appreciate your particpation.  I learn something new everyday.


 :salute



ROX


Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Saurdaukar on August 05, 2008, 12:27:31 PM
Sitiation:

You see an enemy aircraft attempting to land.  It's already down, breaks on, and coming to a stop.

The plane is deadstick...engine dead.  The pilot is wounded, blood on the cockpit glass.





Would you?:

Vulch it or not vulch it.





Yes or no question, no need for "War & Peace" replies.





ROX

Are you in the plane?
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Cthulhu on August 05, 2008, 12:47:54 PM
I had the exact thing happen to me when I'd only been playing a few months. Crippled, wounded,.. I slid to a stop and was vulched before I could .ef and land 5. So I say "No Quarter, waste him!" :devil

We're all products of our childhood, be it virtual or real. :D
Title: Re: Simple Moral & Ethical Question
Post by: Hoarach on August 05, 2008, 12:53:09 PM
<-------Doesnt vulch

I think vulching is dumb and takes no skill to do so I dont do it.  Least let them get up with their gear up and have some sort of chance of fighting back.

I dont count the planes I was fighting trying run from me to their field and try to land without finishing the fight a vulch either.  I consider that running from a fight and not wanting to get shot down.