Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: minus on July 19, 2001, 07:00:00 PM
-
HTC is it realy necesery and CORECT have a miracle sniper 50 calibers mounted in planes ??????
they sniping riping off all planes form 800 to 1.0 distance
when many lw planes are PUSHED to shot below 300 becose rof is so low planes can out manover bulet stream ?
is it corect all that ?
to hit something with clasic ground mounted MG at that distance is tricky , dont you think so ????????????????
-
LOL, yeah man model every single bullet fired !
-
Charlie every bullet is modeled, drag, weight speed ROF etc.
Search the UBB and you will find many discussions about bullets, bullet dispersion, .50 cal trajectory, .50 cal accuracy distance (which is further than 1000yds).
Salute!
Rocket
-
Originally posted by minus:
to hit something with clasic ground mounted MG at that distance is tricky , dont you think so ????????????????
No, M2 50 cal maximum "effective" range is somewhere around 2000 yards. A ground mounted weapon would be even more stable than shooting from an aircraft and hitting a vehicle at 800 to 1000 yards would not be tricky. In the same way, an aircraft flying straight and level 800 yards in front of my plane is an easy target. Now if that aircraft is doing very slight evasive moves as it extends in front of me, the hit percentage goes waaay down to 0% at 800-1000 yards.
-
well sancho u probably read many war ping literature and spekin to much arounbd beer , but in real life is it noT like this !
2000 yard ???????????????
heh i em sure you experience with real heavy machine guns is not 100 % real , sory
just for people who never hire about my story:
in ex Czekoslovakian country i begin my military carier at 14 years old with military academy after 4 years another higher military schol so I know what is to shot with heavy gun
-
In Kuwaut, american marine recon was filmed under hostile fire using a HUMVEE mounted M2 with standard iron sights to fire from cover behind a large stone wall on a Iraqi position in a very tall tower at over a 3/4 mile distance.
Camera crew filmed multiple rounds impacting the target, silencing Iraqi fire.
We could argue about it in the *virtual* but the M2 Browning 50 cal was and still is an awesome weapon in reality.
How many of those LW cannon are still in use today?
I should add that the marine firing the M2 was using a very disciplined technique when sending the rounds to the target. He only squeezed of a few rounds with each trigger pull. Maybe 3-5 rounds per burst. No sustained fire, only aimed fire.
Yeager
[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Yeager ]
-
I was a grunt. I fired the .50 cal and I "humped" the hog ie M60. The .50 cal easily has a range of 1000 in fact its main limiation in real life is the human eye. The short burst are used for accuracy and to stall the heating of the barrel. The m60 max effective range was about 1200 I think, been along time.
xBAT
P.S. The .50 IS used for sniper duty as well FYI.
[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
-
Sancho,
Yup.. go figure whats maximum effective range for 20mm ;)
much better.
-
I shot a lot of M2's in various configs in the Army, depending on the operator, the M2 is deadly acurate out to 1500 yds, add the fact that there are 6 .50's firing in most platforms in AH, I can see an argument for increasing the range of them :D
-
There's a voice in my head nagging to me that the 27mm Mauser cannon in the Ef-2000 was in fact pretty much derived from the Mg213 series of cannons. I'm not quite sure whether that is true... can anyone confirm?
And what comes to the .50 cals in AH - well, they're nice, and I sure as hell like them :D. If you don't like getting shot down by planes carrying them, how about trying one yourself, get back to them, so to say :).
Yes yes, I understand the people who only like to fly one plane or planes of one affiliation but really, if you feel that you are flying an inferior plane or whatnot, simply switch to better one and see if you can improve ;).
-
You cannot compare solidly mounted "ground use" post-war M2HB accuracy and range to that of wing munted short barrel WW2 aircraft guns.
Plus all of quoting these huge solid mounted M2HB range and accuracy figures, always say FIRING IN SHORT BURSTS, so even these solid mounted guns are innacurate in anything but a fast burst at long ranges. M2 is great gun but it doesnt escape physical laws. long burst = recoil = less accuracy. Not to mention melting barrel lining. In AH there is no penalty for long burts, no recoil, no modeling of wing flexing which affected accuiracy, and was factor in P51 in one other way at least, for example pilots were warned not to fire their guns at very high speed as the shaking and flexing combined with speed would rip the wings.
Whatever you guys say about supposed 2000yard ranges the real WW2 USAAF pilots Ive read almost if not all all say it was only worth to shoot at about 500yards max at WW2 combat alts.
But youll all disagree im sure. :) hehe
-
Originally posted by minus:
2000 yard ???????????????
heh i em sure you experience with real heavy machine guns is not 100 % real , sory
I was never a machine gunner, but I've seen the M2 and M240G (the USMC's M60 replacement) fired at many, many machine gun ranges, and have had the opportunity to fire them too. As I recall, 2000 yards is the maximum effective range of the M2 with tripod mount . Now I don't claim anybody can hit with consistency at that distance, and I never said it was possible to hit at 2000 yards in an aircraft. As far as shooting from M2 on the tripod mount, usually, there is an "A gunner" who helps the shooter adjust fire and the shooter has traversing dials to adjust the weapon up/down and side to side with precision. Not spraying, but short bursts. This is what I meant when I said that hitting ground targets (usuall vehicles) at 800 - 1000 yards is definitely possible for it is well withing this gun's range. I was responding to your comment "to hit something with clasic ground mounted MG [like an M2] at that distance [800 to 1000 yards] is tricky , dont you think so ????????????????"
Grunherz is definitely correct in that comparing ground mounted M2s to those mounted in an aircraft is a bad comparison. I'll have to dig up the AAR of a P-51 killing a 109 at 1000-1200 yards. The 109 was straight and level at 30k. That was definitely a *tricky* shot, but it shows what the 50 cal is capable of.
[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Sancho ]
-
[double post]
[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Sancho ]
-
Sancho at 30K its much more likely as the air is much thinner thus providing less drag.
As the Korean War moved fighting over 40,000ft long range shooting became more practical. But at standard WW2 alts, and even more so at the lower standard AH alts the current US .50 cal has some enhanced capabilities in long range shooting, especially so at lower alts that the real one didnt have. To be honest it doesnt really matter half of time, but when it does happend its especially annoying because its obviously inaccurate.
My personal view is that US .50 cal dont disperse enough at longer ranges. Basically seeing some of the guncam from both AA and AG firing it seems the real bullets wnt all over the place after a short distance. In AH they form a pretty solid pattern till they fall off. Im not sure if the guncam film showed only fighters with the "Box" disperesion pattern, but its not likely.
Anyway its nothing too drastic, but somehow it should be made to encourage the more historic 500yd firing rather than the 700-800 and sometimes longer firing that is quite common today.
Changing dispersion at extreme ranges, introdice recoil and wing flexing, and maybe introducing barrel melting on all MG
to discourage long bursts.
These changes would both make it more realitic and give planes with centrally mounted guns some of the advantages they had in RL. Thus the 109, P38 Yak etc could be better gun platforms as they were said to be.
I donno, nothing too drasic I guess so plz dont bite my head off.. :)
-
I've shot AA-machineguns (12.7mm, it makes .50 in cals?) during UN training and I must say it feels little more powerful that common 7.62 machineguns,hehe.
From finnish army home pages:
- 12.7mm
- velocity 850m/sec
- max effective shooting distance:
- airtarget: 1.500 meters (1640 yards)
- groundtarget: 2.000 meters (2187 yards)
These aa-machineguns are very old, not from WWII tho (hehe)... Still shooting distance is very long.What comes to recoil, it's huge! We were learining to fire very fast "snapshots", only 2-3 bullets at time. I must say that shooting with trigger all the way down is true spray and pray. Recoil makes it impossible to aim anything. This machinegun was installed in turret on pasi-apc.
EDIT: One .50cal installed on fighter wing prolly doesn't hit anything (in RL) over 1500 yards, but when there's 8 of them and recoil makes fighter to shake, it's way better possibility to hit.
In AH, I've sprayed and sprayed and best kill I got was from 700 yards. At 1000 yards, you're very lucky to achieve kill, even in jug.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: janneh ]
-
I've only been playing about a month, but in my 80 odd kills and 80 odd deaths I have yet to recall being killed, or hit with any frequency, by anybody at 800 yards. If it weren’t for these boards, I wouldn't even be aware of this as an issue.
When trying to clear a friendly's tail, or chasing a faster runner, I have fired at 700+ yards and get maybe 5% or less hits (Spit w/Hispanios and .50 cals) against a target flying straight and level with zero deflection (and likely no jinking on his/her part). As was the case in RL, I wait until I get within 400 yards now to save the Spit's short clip. I mean really, how common are these 800+ hits?
Given a typical engagement range of under 400 yards for all sides in WW2, the differences in velocity and tejectory between Luftwaffe planes and allied aircraft would likely not have been noticed by anyone at the time. The four 20mm and two mg's of the 190A series were certainly powerful enough to easily drop a fighter, even the Jug, at these ranges and was more than adequate against bombers and more deadly than most allied armaments.
In WW2, most of the "Experten" fired from closer than 400 yards (often much closer) and Hartmann used his eyesight to position for a surprise kill at 200 yards or less then disengage. I've also read comments from allied pilots along the lines of: "I fired from 600 yards, which was way too far, but surprisingly..." showing that while rare, occasionally luck rewarded a poor-percentage shooting solution. If there are people who consistently shoot very accurately at these ranges in AH (more than the occasional time that pisses off a type A personality far beyond what it should), I would suggest that while the weapons may be modeled correctly in AH the shooting skill compared to real life may not.
If you read enough on the topic, it becomes clear that gunnery training was not a universally high priority in WW2. The Experten in AH pull the trigger thousands of times more time than RL WW2 pilots, and there are likely a few long-range Michael Jordans and Tiger Woods flying around -- but again, not enough for me to notice so far and I've been shot down by some of the best as far as scores and rankings go :)
Charon
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Sancho at 30K its much more likely as the air is much thinner thus providing less drag.
As the Korean War moved fighting over 40,000ft long range shooting became more practical. But at standard WW2 alts, and even more so at the lower standard AH alts the current US .50 cal has some enhanced capabilities in long range shooting, especially so at lower alts that the real one didnt have. To be honest it doesnt really matter half of time, but when it does happend its especially annoying because its obviously inaccurate.
My personal view is that US .50 cal dont disperse enough at longer ranges. Basically seeing some of the guncam from both AA and AG firing it seems the real bullets wnt all over the place after a short distance. In AH they form a pretty solid pattern till they fall off. Im not sure if the guncam film showed only fighters with the "Box" disperesion pattern, but its not likely.
Anyway its nothing too drastic, but somehow it should be made to encourage the more historic 500yd firing rather than the 700-800 and sometimes longer firing that is quite common today.
Changing dispersion at extreme ranges, introdice recoil and wing flexing, and maybe introducing barrel melting on all MG
to discourage long bursts.
These changes would both make it more realitic and give planes with centrally mounted guns some of the advantages they had in RL. Thus the 109, P38 Yak etc could be better gun platforms as they were said to be.
I donno, nothing too drasic I guess so plz dont bite my head off.. :)
Oooh, hoo-boy... I don't kmow anything about the drag issue, BUT - all that combat footage will not give you a good idea of where bullets went, for two reasons: 1) What you see are the tracers, which have a different flight path characteristics from normal rounds, and 2) The bullets that you see all over the place appear that way because of how much the camera is shaking, not the guns! What'dya think, that they mounted the Brownings in Jello or something? Come on! :p.
-
First off let me say I have "some" experiance with the 50 Cal. I spent over 10 years in an Armored unit and fired both the M2 and the tank mounted 50 that is on 60 class and M1 tanks. On a normal tank range the CLOSEST targets for the 50 were at least 500 meters away. The longest was 2000 meters. These were vehicles as the 50 is not a primary anti personell weapon on the tank. The coaxial mounted 30 cal was for troops.
The weapon is very accurate in timed or burst fire. A vehicle mounted weapon such as on a tank can maintain a sustainred burst on target far longer than a ground mount 50 using the pintle only. The reason is the tank uses the equivalent of a T&E (traverse and elevation) mechanism to hold the gun steady. A ground mount pintle only is simply a mount where the T&E gear is disconnected. You can see it where as soon as the gunner relaxes his hold or releases the gun the barrel immediately points up. This is NOT accurate for long rage shooting except for the first few rounds as the recoil is jarring the shooter. This situation is not the same as in the aircraft.
Sustained fire discipline calls for using bursts of fire at a target over a period of time. The typical burst is between 5 to 10 rounds, a long burst would be 25 or so. Remember the M2 in an infantry support role has an ammo can with less than 100 rounds in it. The tank mounted version in the M60 tank only held 85 rounds in the ammo tray. It was also time consuming to reload. Not something you want to do in the heat of battle.
A very important factor to consider on these weapons is that they are NOT CONSIDERED POINT or sniper weapons in normal use. If the weapon, 50 cal MG, was a true point weapon the chances of hitting at range with a plane would be drastically reduced. They are AREA weapons where a number of rounds will impact in the "beaten zone". This zone has a shape dependant on the circumstances of firing. In a ground environment and static target the beaten zone will be an eliptical circle. Think a circle stretched out in the direction of fire. This is the equivalent of a pattern from a very large shotgun. This dispersion from each gun would increase the hit probablity of a target by spreading the rounds out to cover the area the target is in. It does not mean more than a couple rounds may strike out of any short burst. The dispersion of rounds is a factor both of the gun and ammo.
The gun does not return to battery in EXACTLY the same position as it was before the round fired. The ammo is also loaded with a bit of "slop" in the propellant loading. There is a bit of deviation in how much powder is in each shell. It is a SMALL deviation to be sure but it does insure that the rounds will disperse due to slight deviations in velocity. Please note that a competition grade weapon using carefully weighed charges of propellant ALSO have deviations in velocity up to 100+ FPS and show excellant accuracy to the limits of the cartidge and weapon. Of course the less variations the better the point accuracy.
Anyone saying that a plane firing the 50 should not hit at an extended range is not correct. It should hit but not with many rounds and likely not with significant damage, excepting the "lucky or golden bb".
The reason pilots wanted to get within a particular range was to insure a FATAL amount of damage was done as fast as possible to avoid the target having a chance to escape or turn on the attacker. There is also the inability of most people being able to apply the correct amount of windage and lead on the target to get a reasonable chance of hitting the target. In short, closer means less guessing and greater probability of multiple hits for a fatal amount of damage.
As a final note, I am still confused why players expect to "burn out, melt or warp" barrels in the guns with a long burst. In most of these planes a long burst would be about 3 seconds. At 350 rounds per minute that comes to about 5 - 6 rounds a second or 20 rounds for 3 seconds per gun. At high rate setting of fire for a M2 (450 to 500 RPM) it comes to a bit over 8 rounds per second or 24 rounds per gun at 3 second burst. Hardly a rate high enough to damage the barrels. Ever running an entire can (100 rounds) through the gun at once will not burn out the barrel. It will still be an effective area weapon. remember the normal number of 50's on an American plane was 6 guns. That means there are between 36 to 48 rounds per second going out depending on the fire rate selected on the guns.
Hosing out your ammo in bursts longer than 10 seconds of fire that burns up your ammo is not conducive to living. That would cause a serious depletion of a very limited ammo supply. No one is going to want to run his guns dry quickly as you don't know how long you will need to fight.
Mav
-
Nice post Charon.
-
I use my P-51D and gunsight to shoot up to 1k range for the sole purpose of getting a lucky ping to try and make a fleeing bandit turn and blow some E so I can catch him.
I use the primary pair of MGs for this wih a convergence of 425 yards. If you want to fly straight and level in front of me at 800 - 1000 yards, I WILL hit you. But, you would only be hit by 2 - 3 bullets (maybe) out of a burst of 15 bullets or so.
I have NEVER been able to produce significant damage at these ranges however.
The other thing that people are neglecting to talk about here is net lag. At high speeds, a plane you perceive at 1000 yards is probably closer to 800, if you see him at 800, he could be as close as 600, well within leathal range.
Anyway, if you change you flight path by just a couple degrees when you see the tracers coming, you can usually avoid the shots.
-
Animal wounded my Tempest pilot in his 'Stang tonight at D1300 (my end).
Just saying....
-
well, i know this is about .50cal but on my 109F4 I usually use the MGs at ranges of up to about 1k to try and get that lucky ping on an escaping target. 75% of the time as soon as they hear the ping sound, they start to turn and then they're all mine.
Never killed anyone at those ranges tho
-
Ok, maybe I'll tell a bit of my own experiences.
Umm. I will happily take any shots on maneuvering targets up to 600-700 yards or so, if flying a Chog or a P-47. I will shoot at more straight flying targets up to ranges of some 1k or so. It is feasible, even with tracers off but one must be fast and precise. The hispanos definitely pay off long range shooting and even the 50 cals can do decisive damage (destroyed elevator etc) with a good burst. Also, I've managed a good solid burst with the four Mg151's of the 190a8 to 650 yards. I took the shot on a level flying P-47 and the burst ripped a wing off it.
Generally I wouldn't recommend long range shooting if you don't have a plane with hispanos or 50 cals (the 23mm mounted on the Il-2 might be good too, dunno) and preferably a good amount of ammo to spare.
I have every gun in every plane set to convergence of 650 (with few exceptions: machineguns in the fw-series and other useless popguns). I suggest that you people try for example one of the P-47's and set all the guns to 650 convergence. Then practice against the offline drones for a good while, you will notice that you are able to hit them with good solid bursts from quite far.
I'll try to remember to take a film with some long range shooting (and hitting too :D) and post it here.
-
I can hit out to d1.4 with .50's of the F6F :)
At D700 I can easily destroy a target that does the usual mild evasive left/right turn thing.
If a target is stationary, I can sometimes hit it out to d700 with the 13mm on the G10. 750 with the 7.9mm's.
I'd give a few pints of beer for a .50 in LW planes :).