Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Soda on May 23, 2001, 11:13:00 AM
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I have some serious doubts about this NOE flying thing in 1.07 (if they enable the under-dar feature in the MA). I think it will make some more tactics appear.
Example:
1 typhoon flys in NOE, hits dar at field with rockets/20mm, and the rest of the attack shows up without the base or radar warning anyone. Easy capture for the risk of one typhoon sortie. Nobody is the wiser because the base never says it's under attack, and nothing ever would appear on dar.
Doesn't that sound wrong? I mean, one typhoon comes in and hits the dar, then it's a free capture (or chances are pretty good nobody would notice). I used to consider this type of attack a "sneak" and really risky. If someone trys a tactic like this though, the whole attack force could slip in under the dar and just wipe out the field before anyone was the wiser. It makes this type of attack the almost preferred method.
If you are going to have NOE dar disabled (and I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea) then I think there should also be the following:
1) acks spread randomly around the map that shoot at cons under 1K alt. You couldn't just fly around at low level without some sort of penalty as in real life. NOE is dangerous and wasn't really popular because every unit spread around the countryside that you flew over would take a close range shot at you. I have several articles about low level flying in WW2 and how much pilots hated it since you were bound to stumble across AA positions and get shot to hell. The first one you bumped into let everyone in the area know you were coming and they were waiting for you.
2) bases should announce an attack is underway as soon as the first AA gun fires, or the first enemy round lands on that base. Maybe it's when someone gets within a reasonable visual range.
3) very low level ack (under 500ft) should be murderous. Right now it can be bad (one ping, death), but still I see people regularily flying around under 1K fighting people in ack and never getting hit. No Typhoons coming in under dar and with 3-4 planes whiping out the ack in 1 pass like can basically be done now.
4) even with the dar down at a base, cons within 5K (or whatever we want to consider as visual range) should show up as dots, regardless if the dar is down or not. Consider it visual range cues, not dar cues.
5)dar should have increase capabilities under conditions where it does detect a target that include the height and heading of the con.
Just some thoughts. I personally like the NOE flying idea, done it many times myself to get close to a field without being localized on dot dar. I do think that there are some elements missing though to prevent it from turning into a style of gameplay that dominates some of the strategic elements of gameplay. Personally I doubt that there are enough pilots in the game that could manage to remain under 500ft for an entire run over undulating ground to remain off dar anyway. I suspect there will be pilots popping up and down and someone might notice that and know what was up.
Just some thoughts...
-Soda
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Can you show me where it says we'll have NOE radar in V1.07? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This is the ONLY thing slated for radar changes, and they have to do with CM tools and the SEA:
Two new radar mode flags have been added to show only planes in sector counters and to remove
planes below radar from sector counters. These are configurable offline, in H2H mode, and for CM's in
SE arenas.
"Witch, witch, burn it!" Unknown player Jan.2001.
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I agree that bases should report when they are being attack as well as when GVs are nearby.
Nexus
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Rip,
and to remove planes below radar from sector counters
My understanding of "below radar" would be NOE. The context is that it won't be turned on in the MA, but there is already a group of people advocating that it should be. Thus my message regarding some concerns/ideas to combat something I could see as possibly becoming a problem.
-Soda
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Rgr Soda. We could use Warbirds as a bench mark, its used in there, and rarely do you see threads regarding it...of course, they don't have the land strat (GV's) that we have either.
I'd like to see it tried for a month.
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Never played WB, but hear lots of stories from people who do. I think NOE should be part of AH with associated risks/rewards but right now, as it stands, I think there would be all the rewards without any risks.
-Soda
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I'm not sure, lesse, we've got a different field lay out coming with more hangars, manable acks, limited views with Tanks, JU87 to counter tank attacks (not just Chogs or Tiffies)...if they required a field to be flattened,not just acks, then No-Dar-Bar would be less painless, since currently all one has to do is nail the acks to capture.
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Ju-87s? I heard/saw the post on the Il-2 but Stukas are in?
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DOH! IL-2's I meant, maybe its a Freudian slip? I've got German in my blood. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HTC could implement a visual and an audio warning about bases being attacked. Once any field object is destroyed you could have a private message to everyone in that country. Something simple like "A15 is being attacked!"....combine an air raid siren with that, or maybe just flash the base's icon on the map. As for the problem with NOE attackers getting off scot free, you could add 5 or 6 remote acks positioned about VH distance from the field. Certainly would make anyone think twice before going on a solo NOE raid.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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I know the topic of "air-raid" warnings has been mentioned before (by Pyro I think). I think it should happen the instant an enemy round lands on the field or the AA lights up.
Rip, I'm not sure the Il-2 will fare so well against GV's. I still think a single Ostie 37mm round will be enough to mutilate it. It should stand up to M16, M3 and Panzer fire better, but the Ostie is still the AA GV unit of choice for most people. All the armour on the Il-2 will still probably not be enough to stop a 37mm hit from bringing you down. I do agree the Il-2 guns should be effective as Anti-GV weapons though (or so it sounds). I don't know that the Il-2 will change the GV defense all that much. I guess it will depend on how the new armour modelling (something that isn't mentioned as part of this release in the posting). The Yak9 with 37mm is pretty effective at anti-GV right now. It will also bee easy food for any roving fighters, the least defended of anything. It'll be more like shooting down TBM's since most of the birds in AH have lots (at least 2) cannons that it will likely meet. All that armour probably won't help against a 4 hispano Typhoon, or 3 cannon La7.... ouch. Maybe against a cannon 109. I do think the IL-2 is a great addition though. Under friendly aircover it will most likely be a really exciting plane to fly.
I don't know that anyone will be alert enough to man an ack on a lightning fast attack. It might make some ack more effective, but lots of people are pretty bad with ach fire (me included) and can't hit anything at ranges over 1K without a lot of luck. If anything the mannable ack might decrease the ack cover since anyone can man it and might have no idea what they are doing. Crossing shots with an Ostie are hard enough over about D1.3 or so, I doubt that these manable acks will do a whole lot better. As it is now, the computer AA might end up more effective than manning the acks. the computer AA seems to put up a basket of pretty lethal ack, right on target instantly, and switches through firing acks equally instantly. That won't be the case with human AA. Manable .50's and 88's might have been a better choice. At least the 88's right now are mostly ineffective at alt (it's rare to get hit and die). The mannable 5inchs on ships have turned into lethal weapons in some hands.
The new field layouts will be nice too... always seemed strange we referred to airfields by the number of runways (small=1, medium=2, large=3)... the number of FH's was always the most important part (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The map makers will be busy when 1.07 comes out, that's for sure.... new field maps all around.
-Soda
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Sigh, Soda...
NOE flying is actually both very difficult and great fun. Right now you can take out the 'dar with an arado and people will just not notice. NOE-dar attacks aren't going to change much.
However: a single tiffy taking out the dar like that? Damn, that's gonna be a good toss-bomber.
Addressing your points:
1. Yes - random NOE objects such as lone-acks etc, stand-alone dar towers, would all be great. Strat objects, that mean the ground isn't just a place you to get away from it all - you need to learn the terrain.
2. That's very Air Warrior. I think HTC try to minimise the amount of automation in a game and want to leave it to the players to announce 'Alarm 35!'
However - it might be nice if HTC made players at a field that just lost it's dar hear a little "radio-going-dead" hiss/squeak/pop type noise, and perhaps then garble some of their radio reception (make it a combined dar and radio hut).
3) No way there man; those people are NOT engaging the field, which is why they survive the ack. A tiffy or a bomber trying to attack the field is guaranteed death, which right now is what is preventing people from doing NOE. I occasionally try NOE at night in the B26 with 3-5 bombers, but we are guaranteed to lose 1-2 the moment the acks open up, another when the remainder climb the short distance to drop, and anyone who is left after the drop is likely to be -1 eng or on fire. The ack right now makes Ploetsi look like a cake walk.
Pilots are going to need to start spending a few moments in the tower between sorties looking at the world at large. As more strat, and NOE is strat, is added to the game, many players will begin to break away from the "furball and bounce back" mentality and start looking at their maps more often.
4) Not a chance. The sector bars indicate there are enemies present, having dar for a field that has no dar represents something incredibly unrealistic in even more unrealistic way. Certainly while you are in flight, you can see the planes you can see. Any planes you can't see shouldn't magically show up on your map to simulate you being able to see them, because you CANT see them.
5) Hmmm - I don't recall hearing of A6Ms or Spits that had that kind of capability.
Soda...
Most of these ideas seem to be based around the concept that NOE will give players the ability to fly undetected therefore we must make them detectable.
Right now very few folks do NOE because with pin-point radar-precision tracking, you are incredibly vulnerable flying on the deck. Making NOE a viable option by making it undetectable will ADD NOE to the game. Making it detectable again will simply take it back out again.
But you are totally missing something.
In this here dog-fight simulator, there are people who want to fly NOE. There are also people who like flying "scout" and "cap" sorties, only they don't because there's diddly squat point to it right now.
If you can add NOE to the regular flying activities of pilots, other pilots will begin to adapt. More pilots will fly low-level scouting/defensive sorties, rather than automatically pointing their 109 at 32k every time they take off.
And NOE attacks generally only work against a field that is inactive. You try and fly NOE against an active field and they see your dot coming; you have no E, so they only have to have a couple of k to be death on a stick for you.
This will cause a widening of the front lines. Hopefully it will encourage more player to fly more often given a wider variety of missions; perhaps it will bring players over from WarBirds who miss the sorts of daring low-level raids that 617 used to fly (http://www.kfs.org/~oliver/dambusters/raids.html)
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kfsone,
You tone is pretty negative in that response and you seem to have missed the point yourself... It's not like I'm new to AH... so here goes.
I've flown LOTS of NOE missions in AH, it used to be a classic for Zigrat and CaveJ missions. I've spent a tonne of time under 500ft in bombers, typhoons, and I know it is challenging to fly at low level. I followed Zig on several raids half way across the map in a Typhoon to hit important strategic targets....
I consider myself a crappy de-acker, yet I can manage to pull it off fairly regularily at small and medium fields. The really good de-ackers can do it no problem. hitting something like the dar at a field only takes one good pass with Typhoon 20mm and there is a pretty good chance the ack won't even hit him. The ack is either completely deadly (one hit=death) or almost totally ineffective.
I doubt the furballers are going to change the way they play. It's there $30 and I think they will continue to furball. Just because there is more strategy added to the game doesn't mean they will use it. People who just want to furball won't change.. or very few will. NOE or not, they won't change (and shouldn't if they don't really want to).
My understanding is the NOE would NOT show as a dar bar, thus you would have NO warning of an attack and you may never know until it is over. I don't seem any realism in that. Even with dot dar in the current model often nobody notices a field is under attack at all. Happens all the time. The ranges are so short in AH that things happen very quickly and people spend so little time looking at the strat map. Even when someone notices something and calls for help it is unusual that you will get a large response unless a squad decides to take on the defense of that field.
My point isn't to make enemies detectable just because they will be undetectable with NOE, my point is that when they attack something there should be a realistic response so that some sort of defense can be mounted if a player choses to.
Currently you don't show up on dot dar under 500ft, only bar dar. It's actually fairly difficult to find someone on only bar dar if you don't find clues as to there relative position/heading. I've snuck through entire sectors of enemy at low level while I know they were looking for me.
So, the summary for you, you won't change the furballers, the NOE fliers will zoom around hitting strat targets with no real defensive response (unless they hit a target with enemy aircraft defending it which would be stupid), the already easy job of 3 people de-acking a field is even easier now that you don't have time to respond to the raid, and by the time that you do respond the goon is already on the field. The first time 3 guys flying NOE and taking out the whole City unopposed I think there will be a problem.
-Soda
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soda i think kfstone put it accrossvery well and not negative at all.
NOE will place you in a vulnerable position still and to attack a base you will need to either pop up into dar which pops a red bar up warning every enemy looking at the map, or go in at 500 ft or less.Well good luck with your 500ft attack if you are alone! i can take out 4 -5 acks in 1 pass if im lucky but more often than not if im lower than 1000ft and i shoot directly at an ack it gets the last bullet bang on target and takes your engine or tail off.
soda you should worry about possible 'gaming the game' issues when they arrive.Besides like ripsnort said it hasnt been stated it will be implemented in 1.07s MA just the option is now available if they decide to use it.
all this is conjecture at the moment.Lets see how it goes first.
You remember the fuss over F4c perking? Well has it ruined AH for you? hasnt for me, true i see more la7s,nikis and spits but hey! that was the idea! now i see 3 types rather than 1.
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Hazed
9./JG54
P.S. if the city was on land higher than 500ft or main factories etc had complete radar coverage to the ground the city strike you talk of as ruining the fun for all would be negated.Lets try it and see what occours then address the problems ok? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-24-2001).]
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kfsone:
Sigh, Soda...
not exactly a positive way to start a discussion.... but whatever.
NOE will be mostly suicidal into the face of defenses, so I don't know that it'll be used that way. It'll be a sneak tactic to hit something away from attention. The response time to things like that right now is typically really weak. NOE will give even less warning or maybe no warning until the field is captured or city is bombed flat.
I do think that HTC have done a bunch of things that'll change a lot of that though in 1.07. More FH's, spread around, with mannable ack, etc... these should cause new methods to achieve field capture.
I just know that people will be asking for NOE in the MA as soon as it comes out and pointing out some issues I perceive that could be a problem. You can't always just put something in and see how it all falls out, someitmes you need to look ahead a bit.
No offense meant hazed or kfsone... this whole thread was just meant to start some discussion...
-Soda
[This message has been edited by Soda (edited 05-24-2001).]
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If this were a perfect world and I could have what I wish for, this would be my wish for RADAR.
1. DOTDAR would only update once every five minutes rather than every second (otherwise, give me my radar guided over-the-horizon missles and my after burners)
2. No BARDAR or DOTDAR for planes below 500 feet
3. GVs don't show up on BARDAR (with one exception as noted in #4)
4. All GVs and ACs (even below 500 feet) show up on DOTDAR and BARDAR as soon as they are 5000 yards from a base, factory, city, CV, etc. (might even want to throw in vehicle type labels - since personnel could determine this at that range).
5. Whenever a GV or AC is within 5000 yards range of a base, factory, city, CV, etc a message is send out on country channel that they are under attack - ever 5 minutes.
DAR in this game is entirely a contrived apparatus to help game play - has nothing to do with reality.
If one were to rationalize it, these changes would reflect the information a GCI controller might pass to the flight leader.
In other words, the DOTDAR/BARDAR of enemy AC and GVs near facitilities is a result of RADAR and personnel visually observing the units and their positions.
Any way, I'm just a dweeb and those are my dweeb wishes.
Nexus
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Soda,
Negative? Well, maybe it came across that way. Your post had a very 'Omg - quick ! Stop NOE flying ! People will use it' tone, and having longed for some support for NOE attacks, I find that kinda scary. Effectively "Now that you've enabled NOE please make NOE acks lethal so people can't use it" (is how your first post read).
As to
My understanding is the NOE would NOT show as a dar bar, thus you would have NO warning of an attack and you may never know until it is over. I don't seem any realism in that. Even with dot dar in the current model often nobody notices a field is under attack at all.
Well:
'The weather closed down about 50 miles short of the target. We had to fly over mountains and then come down into the valley below and fly straight towards the target. We ran into cloud over the mountains, having had glorious sunny weather all the way. I was back of the second formation, and I, together with two others out of the 14, simply lost formation. We couldn't keep in touch with the aircraft next to us, but carried on on dead reckoning.
'When I came down out of the cloud the visibility was still poor and I couldn't find the target at all. I set off to look for it, and the cloud base lifted to 1,000 feet. There was a large city spread out to my port side. I thought I would fly round the edge and look for some factory that looked worth bombing. I flew right round the edge of the city at 800 feet but it was all residential, a lot of prosperous-looking houses in the outskirts up in the hills. It turned out that this was Weimar, a university city that does not have an industrial complex. But right in the middle was a big railway station with an enormous goods train stationary in it. I dived down into the centre of the city and dropped my bombs from 200 feet straight into the railway station and then went down over the rooftops to fly away north-west of the city.
'I had no sooner dropped my bombs than the most horrendous light flak barrage I had ever known opened up. When I got clear of the city and went up the river valley the flak was coming down from both sides of the hills. I was twisting and turning. When you are under light flak you have to throw the aircraft around because they are firing over open sights and trying to aim at you. We did get clear and I set off for home, alone of course. Having come through that and then realising, having looked at the map properly, that we were right down in south-east Germany, all alone, at 50 feet, I did feel a bit daunted, a bit desperate. But there was no alternative but to keep going.
'We flew for a long time north, north-west until we were certain we were clear of Hannover, before turning to port and flying due west back to England. Once we started to fly across the open German plain I knew we'd got away with it. Once we got over the Dutch frontier it was getting dark and the Dutch farmers were amazing. When they heard low-level aircraft around - we would come up from 50 feet to about 300 feet - they would rush to the doors of their cottage or farmhouse and open and shut the door, flashing their lights inside to us as a sign. They risked death by doing that, just to give us encouragement. I've never forgotten it.'
-- Charles Patterson, Bomber Command pilot
'The great thing about low flying was that it was always the aim to be as low as you could with safety, because it protected you from the guns, and from radar. It was exciting to be down among the trees, but the pilot had to be looking a long way ahead to see what he had to do next. Over Holland and the North German plain you could get very low indeed. Further inland, with the hills, not quite so low. You did see everything that was going on. We were navigating then with a map. Church steeples were great navigation aids at low level. If you had a map with churches on, the easiest way to navigate was by steeple.
'You could also see people - you could see cars, trucks, horses and carts. In hilly country we literally flew past someone's front door, and as we flew past I looked across over the wing tip and a man opened the door. I was looking him straight in the eye at about 40 feet. On one occasion in the flat country of Northern Germany we were flying very low across some open fields with very few trees, and there was a farmer with his horse and cart coming towards us. We were down deliberately low; I doubt if 10 or 20 feet would be an exaggeration. As we got close the horse reared up and threw the man off the cart before we went over. We were that close to people.
'Low flying in itself was not dangerous. We were flying in a Blenheim, cruising at 180mph. That's slow - you've got time to see trees, even high-tension cables. I've known people clip the target by being a few feet too low, but that was unusual. Occasionally somebody came back with a piece of tree.
'Now night low level was different. That really was dangerous if you got a bit too low, and people sometimes did. We had one night when we were attacking shipping in the Channel at full moon. One Blenheim came back and landed and the pilot asked us to come and look at it.
'"What happened?" we said.
'"Well, I saw a ship so I bombed it and hit it," he said, "I pulled up over the mast and I dropped down the other side. There was another ship there I hadn't seen, so I went through his mast."
'When we got out to the aeroplane we found that the propeller hadn't hit the mast, but the engine had collected a piece of wood that was burning gently against the cylinders.'
-- Ted Sismore, Bomber Command pilot