Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on July 24, 2001, 07:39:00 AM

Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Citabria on July 24, 2001, 07:39:00 AM
way to easy
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Eagler on July 24, 2001, 07:46:00 AM
it's those beadie eyes you have fester  :)
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: eskimo2 on July 24, 2001, 10:56:00 AM
Agree,
with both Cit and Eagler.

eskimo
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: xHaMmeRx on July 24, 2001, 10:58:00 AM
ya. let's get rid of dar and make is so you can only see bogies at short range.  Then we could all fly around wondering where everybody else is.  :rolleyes:

Sorry for the sarcasm. I feel bad about it.  Wait....OK, I'm over it now   :D

Seriously, though, one thing at a time and see what the impact is.

HaMmeR
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Starbird on July 24, 2001, 10:59:00 AM
I have to agree too. They should change color to blend in with the sky/terrain.

Unless they're big shiny bare aluminum birds.  :)
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: hblair on July 24, 2001, 04:33:00 PM
Agreed.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: hblair on July 24, 2001, 04:36:00 PM
Would br nice if the transitions they go through as you get closer could be smoothed, at times when you're closing in on them, they can get way "warpy".
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 24, 2001, 04:41:00 PM
while were at it, lets get rid of ICONS too  :)

Icons ruin ACM in close..

and lets please add a REALISTIC sun effect.. you know the kind you see in the likes of "Serious Sam" (First Person Shooter)

Thanks -Deez  ;)
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Professor Fate on July 24, 2001, 06:43:00 PM
Agree it's easier to spot a C47 as a dot way out there than it is close up when has hills in the background.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: GRUNHERZ on July 24, 2001, 09:46:00 PM
I disagree.

Good pilots could see out very very far, even identify the type.

I remember Yeager recounting a story where he ID'd and counted a  formation of Ju88 or Me110 at very long range, before some of the less experienced pilots even became aware of them.

Ive also read of similar accounts of German and Japanese pilots.

As for dots in AH specifically, i dont think they are bad at all.

You can eaily miss them over dark terrain and water. Often all I notice is their motion or icon and not the dot itself.

As for shiny surface reflections like those on USAAF natural metal fighters, It be nice to add them but I cant see how that would change much, especially with the IMHO 100% neccesary icon system that all sims have in some form or another.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Midnight on July 24, 2001, 10:37:00 PM
At the very least, the dots at long range should be the base color of the plane that it is reprsenting

I.e..

Green dots for C-47, P-51B, P-47D-11/25, etc.

Blue bots for F6F, F4U, TBM, etc.

Gray gots for P-51D, B-17G, P-38L, etc.

I think it would be nice to have them fade in from the background color, but I think the game engine wouldn't be able to handle it, as it would have to know the exact angle you see the contact from and then know if it was against the sky, clouds, or ground. If against the ground, I don't think this would be possible, as the engine doesn't take into account the terrain textures that are totally seprate.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Zigrat on July 25, 2001, 12:25:00 AM
agree with midnight
id like to see the dots be the base color of teh airplane
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Tac on July 25, 2001, 08:17:00 AM
And to add to that, please get rid of the laser rangefinder in the icons! WW2OL has a GREAT icon system, it would RULE to have it in AH. Distance measured by the icon visibility...no more d6.0 "im diving on you" billboard.. you wont actually see a neon sign until its at d1.0!
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 08:24:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
And to add to that, please get rid of the laser rangefinder in the icons! WW2OL has a GREAT icon system, it would RULE to have it in AH. Distance measured by the icon visibility...no more d6.0 "im diving on you" billboard.. you wont actually see a neon sign until its at d1.0!


No thanks. Doesn't sound like fun considering each and every side has the exact same planeset. "Oooo La7..." Get into firing distance "Crap he's on MY side"

What a waste of time that would be.

"Would br nice if the transitions they go through as you get closer could be smoothed, at times when you're closing in on them, they can get way "warpy"."

You mean like the D3.6-D3.7 transition and such? Those are points in the code where it's changing from "low" to "medium" to "high" update rates on that player's airplane. HT said what we have right now is the best, the "fixes" he's tried have proven worse than it being "broken".
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AcId on July 25, 2001, 08:51:00 AM
Can mine be transparent please....I get shot down way too much for my liking.  :D And not the wonderwoman jet either, cuz then you'd be able to see me in my underwear, I'm talking about full cloaking here. And I don't wanna have to de-cloak to fire...thats crap. *Ding* gotta go the muffins are ready.   :p
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 25, 2001, 10:44:00 AM
Why would it be sooo hard to have ENEMY contacts SHOW as only THE plane.. without some BIG BILLBOARD above them? eh?... why?

Quote: "No thanks. Doesn't sound like fun considering each and every side has the exact same planeset. "Oooo La7..." Get into firing distance "Crap he's on MY side"

THis is an easy fix,... NORMAL ICON MODE for ALL Friendly AIRCRAFT/GV/people


NO ICONS for enemy... It wouldnt take long to know that becuase you DO NOT see an ICON, you know that that con you are seeing is ENEMY.

..
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 10:49:00 AM
"NO ICONS for enemy..."

Eh... don't think so.
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 25, 2001, 11:11:00 AM
why not? too hard? too realistic? or what?

whats the reasoning behind  the NO answer?

Iconless fights are more engaging,

Situational awareness needs to be UP to your highest level (more like reality),

CAMOFLAUGE on planes will actually play a ROLE (terrian blending) etc...

The concept of LOSE sight LOSE the fight will REALLY become more true here.

Why would this be so UN-good?

 I see nothing wrong with getting rid of Enemy icons... I think its time we start fighting the OTHER plane instead of the HUGE "laser range finder" PLACARD above them.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 11:38:00 AM
Wake up... we aren't in the plane's cockpit.. we don't have the luxury of seeing these planes at real size.

Being able to better judge closure rates, speed, attitude and heading like real pilots can.

This is all scaled down to fit on a flat monitor.

This has been discussed before. There is nothing realistic about unrealistically taking away icons that are unrealistically 1/500th the size of the real planes.
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Karnak on July 25, 2001, 11:39:00 AM
DeeZCamp,

 
Quote
why not? too hard? too realistic? or what?
whats the reasoning behind the NO answer?

Iconless fights are more engaging,

Situational awareness needs to be UP to your highest level (more like reality),

CAMOFLAUGE on planes will actually play a ROLE (terrian blending) etc...

The concept of LOSE sight LOSE the fight will REALLY become more true here.

Why would this be so UN-good?

I see nothing wrong with getting rid of Enemy icons... I think its time we start fighting the OTHER plane instead of the HUGE "laser range finder" PLACARD above them.

No, it is not more realistic.  You seem to be one of those who sees anything that is harder as more realistic.

In reality my visual field and resolution is much, much better than it is on a 19" monitor with simple polygonal graphics.

Furthermore, due to the lack of depth perception, it would get very frusterating to try to guess if the dot you're looking at is:

1) A friendly aircraft more than D6.0 away from you.
2) An enemy aircraft that is extending away from you.
3) A friendly aircraft that is suffering an icon visability bug.

Your "Realism", isn't.

You're elitism is annoying and preposterous.

The icon system can definately be improved, but eliminating them is not feasible with current technology.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 25, 2001, 11:52:00 AM
yeah karnak.. im soo0o0o elite, I guess I am just better right?..  :rolleyes:

I must have some strange ability to See what you cannot? I dont know why this is the cause..

I have NO problem at all with my vision to SEE and determine The location and DEPTH/Field of view,

You know what... THIS isnt even about what my vision is you putz..

you are not able to visually aquire a target becuse you rely on your icon system. SO be it, You call it what you will, I call it more realistic,and more challenging without the Big "HERE I AM SIGNS"...

Like I said before... I think we should move away from fighting Icons.. and start fighting Planes... You seem to prefere the Icons.

As for the wakeup BS that you are spewing again SW,.. I think you need to have your eyes checked... I think it is very VERY easy to determine velocity, range, and Plane type without Icons when in ACM... perhaps you are also relying on the Icons abit too much.

PS. ZOOM function works wonders if the planes arent big enough for ya.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 11:55:00 AM
Sorry jack-o... I've flown many a night in H2H without icons. I flew in the first Assassins vs FDBs duel without icons on and scored 3 kills using a single 20mm in a 109.

What you are talking about has been discussed ad nauseum by much more qualified and intelligent people than you or me. Until VR glasses are 100% working and work well, icons of some shape must remain.

EDIT: My eyes are better than 20/20 according to my last physical. I can see planes no problem without icons. But atleast half of the other players have glasses or are color blind or something else.
-SW

[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Drex on July 25, 2001, 12:48:00 PM
I see another reason why Icons are good.  A good population of our community are people on the later parts of their lives and their vision isn't what it use to be when they were my age.  I being 28 have the vision of a hawk.  I have no problem seeing through the illusion of making a 3d environment on a 2d surface.  I can see the variables change such as closure rate, what degree the enemies wings are tilted, and can mentaly register where and what distance the plane is to me, and roughly the E state.  The older player just can't visually process the information without icons.  They could get better over time, but it would be very frustrating.  Now take the information of 1 plane near you and multiply that by 10-20 and you can see how difficult it would be.  The icons help tremendously with being able to see the large geometry of the battle.  not just the close fight.  

So my solution is backwards from most.  I say Icons are a must at longer ranges to make up for not being in the plane and having actual depth, sense of speed, and the other factors we are trying to simulate.  But when you get within a certain distance(whatever that may be d1-d0 for example) the Icons should be removed.  I think the visual quality of the planes at close range are very good and it is quite easy to see what the other guy is doing.

But again im a pup with good eye sight.

Drex
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 25, 2001, 01:06:00 PM
Agree 100000000% drex,.. Icons could be on for First visual ques.. and then when within close combat,... they should be off...

my eyesight is 20/15 so I understand what you are saying about the Older people maybe not having the same visual acuteness and I understand.

You took the time to actually give a realistic knowledgable reason as to why it could be hard on others <S>

And I agree that WHEN in close combat.. THE planes are so clear that, Even those with not the greatest sight could see just fine.

Icons off could be turned off 2k and under.

other times keep them on.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 01:08:00 PM
I'll be damned if I didn't say the same thing as Drex well before he did.

Well whatever.
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Drex on July 25, 2001, 02:01:00 PM
Yep, I started the reply before your one above mine.  I just don't have the time at work to pound on the keyboard in one sitting.  Do a bit here, and a bit there then post it.  When the page refreshes, I am always repeating someone.  Reason I don't post very much.  I never have an original idea by the time it hits the press.

Drex
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 25, 2001, 02:04:00 PM
Meant it towards Deezcamp, not you Drex.
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 25, 2001, 02:35:00 PM
I saw drex's Post before yours Wulf
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Karnak on July 25, 2001, 03:13:00 PM
My vision is fine.

However I can't see which way the wings are going or whether I am gaining or losing distance on the bogey when he is rendered as a single black pixel.

Unfortunately aircraft are rendered as single black pixels at distances that in reality would be servicable for telling closure and wing orientation, if not actual aircraft type.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Tac on July 25, 2001, 05:40:00 PM
"No thanks. Doesn't sound like fun considering each and every side has the exact same planeset. "Oooo La7..." Get into firing distance "Crap he's on MY side"

what are you talking about? have you seen ww2ol's icon system?  Friendly icons show, enemy icons show up.. but have no laserrangefinder.. the icon fonts are almost transparent at long range and become increasingly visible as range closes. at close range its a freaking neon sign. In AH id say this would happen at around d1.0.

This would fix the range finder problem AND the billboard icons giving away other players in a split second. How many times you looked all 720 degrees snapping the views around not really LOOKING but just watching out for a red icon?
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 26, 2001, 10:06:00 AM
Quote "How many times you looked all 720 degrees snapping the views around not really LOOKING but just watching out for a red icon?"


EXACTLY... This is why Icons need to be TOSSED when in close. They completey alter the aspect of Situational awareness when in a dogfight.  

POINT:   People fight Icons not the plane.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Trell on July 26, 2001, 11:08:00 AM
DeeZCamp mind if i ask what type of system you are running?  moniter and all?

i have my system set with 16bit colour and a 17 inch moniter and i have a hard time flying with no icons.
i remember flying awhile back when zig started a iconless fight in the training arena  yes it was alot of fun but i got old really fast.  dont know if you have tried iconless for long perieds of time  but try it.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Don on July 26, 2001, 11:37:00 AM
>>As for dots in AH specifically, i dont think they are bad at all.

                     You can eaily miss them over dark terrain and water. Often all I notice is their motion or
                     icon and not the dot itself.<<<

Grunherz:
I agree with you, in general the dots aren't bad, especially for those of us whose eyesight isn't what it used to be    :)
However, I think better use can be made of the plane's camoflage (sp) For example, the underside of many a/c was sky blue or grey so as to not be easily detected from the ground. Well, in AH that aint so. If I'm gunning a ground ack or an FP, as nme a/c fly over they appear as black until they get real close and I can just make out their marking before I shoot em. The only vehicles which seem to have effective camo are PT boats IMO.
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: Don on July 26, 2001, 11:44:00 AM
>>I see another reason why Icons are good. A good population of our community are
                     people on the later parts of their lives and their vision isn't what it use to be when they
                     were my age. I being 28 have the vision of a hawk.<<<


Drex:

I hate you, hate you, hate you, hate you  :mad:
  :p
<As he cleans his eyeglasses to better read whats on the monitor>
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 26, 2001, 11:52:00 AM
Trell :"DeeZCamp mind if i ask what type of system you are running? moniter and all?"

I am using a 19inch monitor,
PIIIEB800
512MegPc133 ram
30G HD
Dual throttle system/Rudder pedals/left handed Saitek

I play in 1024x768 @ 32bit


I play without Icons in Aces almost all the time.. Even in the MA i play without icons.. the only problem is that I cannot only turn off enemy icons and still keep friendlies on. SO i wind up having to revert to Icons on.

when in DA or TA, I almost always have icons off  :D  its more challenging and fun that way
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: AKSWulfe on July 26, 2001, 11:53:00 AM
DeeZ, there's a toggle for friendly only icons. It's the one just before "icons off".
-SW
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 26, 2001, 11:55:00 AM
oh yeah and

ATI RADEON 64megs DDR for video
... usally around 55 in tower and up to 75fps anywere else.


Fully smoked out base i get around 15-20
Title: HTC: long range dots are way too easy to see
Post by: DeeZCamp on July 26, 2001, 03:33:00 PM
CC wulf.. I like forgot and stuff  ;)

Partial Brain meltdown on my part  ;) hehe