Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Waffle on August 08, 2008, 09:08:30 AM
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With all the bad economy talk, dour outlook on the USA and "sad state of affairs" in general with everyone blaming everyone else........
When did it start turning this way? - Do you think there was a catalyst for it?
I think it started when the "New Direction" Congress led by Pelosi passed the fair minimum wage act of 2007. (remember the 100 hour plan?)
Even though it passed and was signed into law after the Bush recommended tax cuts for small business were included.
In the then fragile economy, I think the tax cuts vs. payroll expenses were out of alignment, leaving small business to have to lay off people, hence starting a domino effect to where we are today.
Any thoughts / theorys?
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When a republican was elected president was when all the talk started happening.
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Its easy, look at the reporting...any way to spin negative, they do.
Progress in Iraq...where the news?
Great time to buy a home if you are a buyer...but all we hear about is those who bought more than they could afford. Somehow the general public is suppose to shed a tear and insist the government pay for their homes for them. (So they can not be stung by a bad choice...and make more bad choices)
The Preseidential Race...we arent allowed to point out the obvious flaws of Obama. To do so is mean, racist and takes the attention off more important things....like his affiliation to racists, lack of experience, poor voting record, etc...
The list goes on.
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Imo it started when people borrowed too much. Economies will always go up and down but if you borrow too much at a low rate when things are good you get into big trouble when things changes. If more of the consumption was done with saved and earned money then a recession would have a less dramatic effect.
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When a republican was elected president was when all the talk started happening.
That's because the effects of the former dem president had just started to kick in.
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That's because the effects of the former dem president had just started to kick in.
I think it had nothing to do with effects, or even reality.
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Iraq. There were several papers written about 15 years ago that showed 4 years is a tipping point for a war. Beyond that, economies suffer significant economic damage. Private investment is forfeited for war spending, which creates no real value in the economy.
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I would say it started with the Johnson administration.
More recently, the lack of fiscal responsibility under the Clinton/Bush administration and both the Republican and Democratic congresses. There seems to be no one willing to put on the brakes.
Also, as much as I support the concept of less regulation where industry and finance are concerend, virtually NO regulation is another story. Particularly if you remove the downside for failure like we have with all of these bail outs that leads to the question "Why self regulate?" This started with the almost total hands off approach of the FTC under Clinton where mergers were concerend and the almost total lack of oversight of the financial markets then and since.
The ROI on Iraq is obviously an Issue, as is China as our bestest friend and trading non-partner. The less than equitable implementation of globalization for America as well, of course.
Ultimately though, the American people lack the interest, drive and sophistication to manage our political process, by and large. When that began, I don't know. Probably 1788. But we need the opposite now more than ever.
Charon
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I would say it started with the Johnson administration.
More recently, the lack of fiscal responsibility under the Clinton/Bush administration and both the Republican and Democratic congresses. There seems to be no one willing to put on the brakes.
Also, as much as I support the concept of less regulation where industry and finance are concerend, virtually NO regulation is another story. Particularly if you remove the downside for failure like we have with all of these bail outs that leads to the question "Why self regulate?" This started with the almost total hands off approach of the FTC under Clinton where mergers were concerend and the almost total lack of oversight of the financial markets then and since.
The ROI on Iraq is obviously an Issue, as is China as our bestest friend and trading non-partner. The less than equitable implementation of globalization for America as well, of course.
Ultimately though, the American people lack the interest, drive and sophistication to manage our political process, by and large. When that began, I don't know. Probably 1788. But we need the opposite now more than ever.
Charon
Good points :aok
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According to my wife all was well until I overdid the chili last night. :devil
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I'd guess gas prices were the catalyst. The underlying issues have been stewing for quite some time, but most people don't see a problem until it affects them, and people are feeling the pain at the pump now...
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Economies are cyclical. We're in a trough at the moment but I've seen worse even at my tender age. It ain't just the dour U.S. outlook. We're just in a leadership position vis-a-vis world economies. When things head south we're the first to make the turn. Watch and see how global trends start to follow.
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IMHO I believe it happened when NAFTA was passed. The minute we let manufacturing move out of the country, we doomed ourselves. Its like my cousin said the other day, if these companies in Mexico and China want to peddle their goods here let them make it here. All NAFTA has done is make a group of CEO's rich.
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I would agree with NAFTA. The American workforce has not recovered. Probably never will
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Imo it started when people borrowed too much.
it started years ago when banks started handing out credit cards with 10k limits to kids with jobs making $6 an hour flipping burgers...the housing issue is just the final straw in this ridiculous practice
can be summed up in one word GREED
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With all the bad economy talk, dour outlook on the USA and "sad state of affairs" in general with everyone blaming everyone else........
When did it start turning this way? - Do you think there was a catalyst for it?
I've seen one of this economic graphic published in "USA Today" few weeks ago, i think it happened when you changed the manager
(http://www.hells-handmaiden.com/images/budget_deficit_or_surplus.gif)
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You can blame Bill Clinton and the desire of Congress (DEMs and REPs both) for pandering to voters by insisting that banks make it easy to grant loans (that everyone knew were high risk) to individuals that were buying more then they could pay for. Credit has never been a good idea when its used this way and it never will be.
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Iraq. There were several papers written about 15 years ago that showed 4 years is a tipping point for a war. Beyond that, economies suffer significant economic damage. Private investment is forfeited for war spending, which creates no real value in the economy.
The truth is right here.
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it started years ago when banks started handing out credit cards with 10k limits to kids with jobs making $6 an hour flipping burgers...the housing issue is just the final straw in this ridiculous practice
can be summed up in one word GREED
I agree about the housing. When my wife and I started looking for a house we went to a bank and got preapproved. They told us we were approved for $250,000. We ran the numbers and there was no way we could afford a house for that price. We bought our house for less than half that. The banks made their bed now they have to sleep in it.
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When Allen Greenspan was chairman of the FED.
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IMHO it all started going wrong when;
A: American self-responsibility was; no longer practiced, adhered to, nor taught. We all simply blame each other, or other countries, never getting a thing accomplished.
B: Education took a backseat to propaganda. Ethics and Critical thinking are traits we no longer instill in our children.
Basically, somewhere in the mid 80's.
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I've seen one of this economic graphic published in "USA Today" few weeks ago, i think it happened when you changed the manager
(http://www.hells-handmaiden.com/images/budget_deficit_or_surplus.gif)
That chart needs to have an overlay of defense spending...you will see that it was cut drastically right around the time the surplus started going up under clinton.
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IMHO it all started going wrong when;
A: American self-responsibility was; no longer practiced, adhered to, nor taught. We all simply blame each other, or other countries, never getting a thing accomplished.
B: Education took a backseat to propaganda. Ethics and Critical thinking are traits we no longer instill in our children.
Basically, somewhere in the mid 80's.
At least as far back as the 60's. All I'm old enough to remember.
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When did it start turning this way? - Do you think there was a catalyst for it?
Lincoln. The rat bastard.
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I've seen one of this economic graphic published in "USA Today" few weeks ago, i think it happened when you changed the manager
(http://www.hells-handmaiden.com/images/budget_deficit_or_surplus.gif)
ERM "projected" surplus ring any bells?
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I agree about the housing. When my wife and I started looking for a house we went to a bank and got preapproved. They told us we were approved for $250,000. We ran the numbers and there was no way we could afford a house for that price. We bought our house for less than half that. The banks made their bed now they have to sleep in it.
I would say that the blind eye turned to the Real Estate/Mortgage market, letting home prices' escalate at too fast a rate due to cockamamie mortgage schemes, but you have a good example right there.
But, the slow migration of our manufacturing base since the late '70's/'80's is really starting to catch up with us now. Trade agreements' like the WTO and NAFTA have helped spur that along.
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When a republican was elected president was when all the talk started happening.
Ditto, Yeah the press always has their favorite liberal.
I remember just prior to Clinton being elected it was all bad. Then immediately after it was all good.
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I would agree with NAFTA. The American workforce has not recovered. Probably never will
Ditto.
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I blame Pelosi, mainly because I hate that shrew.
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IMHO I believe it happened when NAFTA was passed. The minute we let manufacturing move out of the country, we doomed ourselves. Its like my cousin said the other day, if these companies in Mexico and China want to peddle their goods here let them make it here. All NAFTA has done is make a group of CEO's rich.
so far, i think this is the most valid point.
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IMHO I believe it happened when NAFTA was passed. The minute we let manufacturing move out of the country, we doomed ourselves. Its like my cousin said the other day, if these companies in Mexico and China want to peddle their goods here let them make it here. All NAFTA has done is make a group of CEO's rich.
When did China become part of North America?
I guess if American companies want to peddle their goods in other countries they will have to have companies in those countries.
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It went wrong about 100 years ago. When the US economy was overhauled, the institution of the federal reserve system and the income tax. Since then the dollar has lost 97% of it's value. Also a notable contributary is the complete conversion to a fiat based currency in 1970(?).
If you are 35 or older you might remember when working class families could afford a nice living with only one person employed per household. People really did live like Cleavers and Cunninghams on tv, at least as far as economics are concerned.
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the new deal!!
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it started years ago when banks started handing out credit cards with 10k limits to kids with jobs making $6 an hour flipping burgers...the housing issue is just the final straw in this ridiculous practice
can be summed up in one word GREED
1000% Right!! Greed....Company's getting products made for a lot less and charging us the same as they always have.
I watched the Olympics last night. Because of American greed the Chinese are getting richer and we are getting poorer :(
BTW I see oil is down again...when are we going to see a price decrease on Food, gas, and every other product that has gone up
because of high gas prices?? FREEKING NEVER GREED!!!! :furious
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It went wrong about 100 years ago. When the US economy was overhauled, the institution of the federal reserve system and the income tax. Since then the dollar has lost 97% of it's value. Also a notable contributary is the complete conversion to a fiat based currency in 1970(?).
If you are 35 or older you might remember when working class families could afford a nice living with only one person employed per household. People really did live like Cleavers and Cunninghams on tv, at least as far as economics are concerned.
I don't recall the Cleavers or the Cunninghams having a TV in every room VCR's, DVD players, DVR recorders, a cell phone for every member of the family, IPODS, Xboxs...
Cable bills, high speed internet, personal computers... I believe it is possible to live like the Cleavers, if you are willing to live like the Cleavers ;)
Ps The Cunninghams rented out the room above the garage :D
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I don't recall the Cleavers or the Cunninghams having a TV in every room VCR's, DVD players, DVR recorders, a cell phone for every member of the family, IPODS, Xboxs...
Cable bills, high speed internet, personal computers... I believe it is possible to live like the Cleavers, if you are willing to live like the Cleavers ;)
Ps The Cunninghams rented out the room above the garage :D
Yes, but neither did the Cleavers' or the Cunningham's have to have both spouses' working to simply pay the bills' for all of that crap.
And they didn't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas, either. They spent something like $0.30. a gallon.
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When a republican was elected president was when all the talk started happening.
nothing is wrong with bush.... all the problems started when the turbanators decided 2 attack us.. we got money going 2 the war... and illegal immigrants that r on wellfare instaid of U.S citizens....
-BigBOBCH
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Yes, but neither did the Cleavers' or the Cunningham's have to have both spouses' working to simply pay the bills' for all of that crap.
And they didn't have to pay $4 a gallon for gas, either. They spent something like $0.30. a gallon.
Convert for inflation, sir. These types of comparisons are severely misleading to the Intardnets.
Gas was $.31 in 1960. $1 in 1960 had approximately the same purchasing power as $7.39 in year 2008 dollars.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl (http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)
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nothing is wrong with bush.... -BigBOBCH
Jeezuz man. Where have you been the last eight years?
(http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/bush-china-locked-door400.jpg)
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Imo it started when people borrowed too much. Economies will always go up and down but if you borrow too much at a low rate when things are good you get into big trouble when things changes. If more of the consumption was done with saved and earned money then a recession would have a less dramatic effect.
Indeed; the 2000 election was sneaky.