Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: crockett on August 09, 2008, 12:26:30 PM
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Obviously the idea behind this game is to allow us to think we would be a top ace in WW2, however how do you think some of the top sticks here in AH would have done in real aircraft in WW2?
When I say top sticks I don't mean score tards on the front page, I mean the guys that are actually good and know what they are doing. Granted there is no way this game or any game can really recreate the actual flying characteristics of a real fighter but with the thousands of hours some have logged over the years, that would have to help quite a bit.
When you figure most pilots at the end of the war were under trained and lacked experience, especially those on the Axis side. It just makes me wonder how close the skill sets of some of the top sticks here in AH, would compare to real WW2 sticks. This is ofcourse assuming they went through the same training as the WW2 pilots did.
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Well, in RL, stick ROCKY in his P-38, he woulda pwnd so many germans/japs! :rock
And Bipolar lol... stick em in like any aircraft, he would pwn the germans/japs :rock
-BigBOBCH
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Two completly different things. Flying an airplane under those circumstances cannot be compared to what we do here. And on top of that, throw in all the factors of g forces and that that was for real. Know many pilots who can't fly sims and many sim guys who couldn't be pilots.
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Two completly different things. Flying an airplane under those circumstances cannot be compared to what we do here. And on top of that, throw in all the factors of g forces and that that was for real. Know many pilots who can't fly sims and many sim guys who couldn't be pilots.
accually, you would b supprised how many ppl that fly in AH are real pilots that accually fly aircraft
-BigBOBCH
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Not to offend anyone, but they would fly just like any young kid out of flight school, ah doesn't require you to learn manual navigation, engine control, plane control, maybe acm wise. But hey stick an ah ace in a 109 at night over germany and see how he fares. ;)
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Two completly different things. Flying an airplane under those circumstances cannot be compared to what we do here. And on top of that, throw in all the factors of g forces and that that was for real. Know many pilots who can't fly sims and many sim guys who couldn't be pilots.
... Then there are the guys who ARE pilots in this game.
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... Then there are the guys who ARE pilots in this game.
A cessna can't preform 1/8th of the acms I use. Theres a difference.
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I am in complete agreement with avionix. There are many factors to be had in real life we don't have to deal with in AH. Just in the plane itself, how many here could manage the engine properly, know what all the buttons and switches in the craft they fly do, and know the limits on the aircraft according to the manual? There are more, but getting outside of the aircraft itself, just looking around would be hard. Looking around flying straight and level, that's easy enough, but try pulling hard Gs and getting your head pushed back into the seat, now try looking around.
Then there is the air itself, in the real world you have to deal with wind, turbulence, temperature of the air, prop wash from other aircraft, the list goes on.
Of course, there is a mental problem here too. In the real world, you actually die, and that can get to people, and act differently under that pressure. Also, in AH good sticks are very aggressive, and if they make a mistake, so what? You don't really die. Real world doesn't work like that, I'm not sure how many people would want to try and ride that stall or try and see if they have just enough E to drag the baddie vert and make him stall before they do, based on their AH experience.
There are many more factors that would cause all of our elite aces to quickly falter in the real deal.
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Much would depend also on their eye sight, physical condition fear of death and ability to keep what they've eaten in their bellies :)
I think the younger, good physics guys with a more sensible/timid style might do well. Then again, they may be serving in some air force already.
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Much would depend also on their eye sight, physical condition fear of death and ability to keep what they've eaten in their bellies :)
lutfisk :rofl
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I agree with Mensa on this. There are too many factors in real life that we don't deal with here.
Engine management,proper pitch settings and the like. I have been in several real aircraft doing some of the ACM we attempt here and it is definitely a different animal. Some of us here would not like flying after a wicked stall spin.
Then there is the reason some new pilots in WWII didn't even survive taking off on their first combat mission.
A pony with it's aux tank full could easily swap ends if the pilot wasn't careful. An F4u could drop its left wing on takeoff without much warning. Hence the nickname "Ensign Eliminator"
Some of us would probably do ok,but it would be a sobering experience.
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accually, you would b supprised how many ppl that fly in AH are real pilots that accually fly aircraft
-BigBOBCH
Yea, but whom of them were flying combat missions that could actually chime in on this post?
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assuming they went through the same training as any other first time pilot in ww2, they might stand a better chance of surviving more than a month than others...then again, they might kill themselves trying to do something fancy.
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I suspect that in WWII most of the guys that 'pwn' in AHII would be pencil pushing ensigns/lieutenants in the 'rear area' after abysmal failure in pilot training.
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assuming they went through the same training as any other first time pilot in ww2, they might stand a better chance of surviving more than a month than others...then again, they might kill themselves trying to do something fancy.
i agree with him
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How many of AH "aces" are even physically fit to fly a WWII fighter? Perhaps the most valuable trait of a WWII fighter was his eye sight - not just focus, but peripheral vision and depth perception too. You don't have these on a monitor and your SA does not require you to move your head more than 15 degrees. You don't change focus between 40 cm to the instrument panel and infinity to find enemy planes. Not to mention that real planes do not have a red label under them.
How many of our "aces" are 4 eyes?
and this is just the vision issue.
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A cessna can't preform 1/8th of the acms I use. Theres a difference.
Bahh!....Cessna yeah,....but we havent seen you in a "spitty" yet! :aok
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Bahh!....Cessna yeah,....but we havent seen you in a "spitty" yet! :aok
know someone who owns one, cause i sure dont ;)
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The only thing you can really compare is the innate aptitude for deflection gunnery and knowledge of ACM. You could probably say those with good ACM knowledge or excellent deflection gunnery could, with the proper general combat aviation training, translate that into real world performance. But, almost absolutely everything else is different. There's no physical sensations of flight in AH, real combat flying was physically rigorous and exhausting.
There's also no real death in AH, that has an enormous impact on how people fly. Not having real death makes people experiment more, whereas in real-life they would tend to stick to tried and true methods they find themselves particularly good at. Real death made people think a lot more before acting impulsively. Real death made people pay attention more so SA and communication was much more important. Real death made cooperative tactics necessary for survival, most patrols were in larger and tighter groups. Real death made certain tactics used very efficiently in AH very dangerous and therefore much more rarely employed in the real world. So, in a game with no real death, most of what we do is not what a real life pilot would probably do in the same situation, unless you fly specifically to survive and even then it would just be a crude approximation.
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For those of you saying that there are pilots in the game, I am one as well. I can get by in here. Die more than I land, but that is ok. I have done and can do aerobatics and have even flown one of those flights where you dogfight someone. But, I wouldn't be able to do it for real without alot of work. It is so much easier here and you take take chances without worrying about the consequences. Being a private pilot is so much easier than trying to keep an eye out for someone. Most of us just have what is ahead of us on our minds not what is below, behind and sometimes even off of our sides, unless its in the traffic pattern. I was just pointing out that there are people that can play this fine but would not be able to fly well. And then there are guys that fly well but have a heck of a time with this.
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isn't most top surviving ace some kind of opportunists fighter and bnzmer, runner, hoer,vulcher! etc?
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ya and also the "pucker" factor that my father and law likes to talk about. I think maybe some theory of ACM and general concepts might carry over, but I don't really think your going to have much of an advantage over someone who has never touched this sim before. It would be a bit like saying that because you play alot of NASCAR on your xbox360, that you would be a good NASCAR driver. Or if you played alot of WoW, you would make a great fairy paladin, or an elf wizard.
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know someone who owns one, cause i sure dont ;)
I do... Well did. He's our neighbor. His insurance was over $100,000 a year... His only choice was to let it go to a collector in Galveston, TX.
It's an actual reubuild, flown by a Frech pilot in WWII, who is actually still alive. He got it off a Post in England. This is the same plane & skin for the Spit 9 (in game).
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/westoaksplaza/Spitfire_A6M001.jpg)
He's still got the Zeke :rock
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/westoaksplaza/Spitfire_A6M004.jpg)
I told him bout AH, but I think he's too busy bulding things... He just finished an R22 Helcopter. The guy is a genius.
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I had the pleasure to meet a Brit that had flown in WWII, he was older than dirt but still very much the gentleman. He trained to fly a Spitfire at the ripe old age of 16 along with 6 other from his school. His first mission he survived out of luck not skill and returned to fight another day. The six other from his class didn't. He left me with the sobering statement "I know & enjoy flight simulators such as ACES HIGH, but on those you always live to fight another day." He was in the states to bury an old comrade. <SALUTE :noid :salute
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It's the whole death vs back to the tower thing that puts me off the idea :D
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I do... Well did. He's our neighbor. His insurance was over $100,000 a year... His only choice was to let it go to a collector in Galveston, TX.
It's an actual reubuild, flown by a Frech pilot in WWII, who is actually still alive. He got it off a Post in England. This is the same plane & skin for the Spit 9 (in game).
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/westoaksplaza/Spitfire_A6M001.jpg)
He's still got the Zeke :rock
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/westoaksplaza/Spitfire_A6M004.jpg)
I told him bout AH, but I think he's too busy bulding things... He just finished an R22 Helcopter. The guy is a genius.
That's a beauty of a Spit. I did a profile of that one for someone associated with it. The "Zeke" is actually a modified T-6, probably one of the Tora Tora Tora birds.
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The "Zeke" is actually a modified T-6, probably one of the Tora Tora Tora birds.
It's not a Tora Tora bird, I don't think... It's got a bunch of everthing. The Gear is from a Mustang, engine from some random warbird, Half the fuselage is T-6 and the rest is mainly all custom. The tail was actually designed by them tracing an A6m Models' tail, with a light shining the shadow onto the wall... :D Crazy how these fabricators come up with stuff like that.
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I think if AH2 was re worked into some kind of legitimate flight trainer model it would help real world pilots. Take for example the Army tank trainer sim. They replay the "battle of 23 easting" (not sure if this is the correct name). This tank battle from Iraq is famous. Of course they practice in real tank enclosures made into a simulator. The whole thing is in a giant hanger where each sim pod is a tank. IF you look at it from above you see rows and rows of sim pods. But everything is played out like a video game.
It teaches squad tactics. communication, timing and maneuver against an enemy. Of course this is followed up with real live fire training. But the "tactics" are much easier to practice and much learning is done this way.
I believe the Army and some other services are now using FPS trainers to teach team work, room entry, and maneuver on the ground.
My conclusion is if in WW2 there was a "simulator" that could employ the kind of dogfighting we have in this game it would have helped real pilots immensily. There were simulators back then but they only taught things like navigation and familiarazation with flight controls...not any acm. That was done in the air and resulted in many training accident deaths.
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I sometimes believe I Pappy Boyington reborn, hehehehehe. :salute
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This thread is a troll right?
It is ridiculous to compare any level of sim experience in something as gamey as this of all things to real world aviation, especially at a combat level. Almost as bad as the flightsim crowd who think they can fly a real 747 just because they can do so on their home PC with a twisty stick and mouse. And often throw up in forums the "what would you do if the pilots were knocked out". Simple you'd shutup stay seated and pray with everyone else that there is someone on the plane with real world flight experience and plenty of it.
I think if AH2 was re worked into some kind of legitimate flight trainer model it would help real world pilots.
AH2 in it's current state is far too dumbed down to almost PS2 status and would certainly take some massive flight and environment update before built into a full motion spec Level-D simulator. And even then it would only be good enough for instrument and procedures training just like commercial airliner Level-D + rated simulators.
I've spent years with 747 sims in FS/Vatsim with real world fixed wing experience and helicopter ratings. But I was blown away be the difference in a real full motion commercial airliner simulator. Chalk and Cheese. I might understand how to programe the FMC,ATC,SID,STARs and other procedures but hands on flying is a different ball game even in a commercial sim let alone real world..
<S>...-Gixer
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Obviously the idea behind this game is to allow us to think we would be a top ace in WW2, however how do you think some of the top sticks here in AH would have done in real aircraft in WW2?
When I say top sticks I don't mean score tards on the front page, I mean the guys that are actually good and know what they are doing. Granted there is no way this game or any game can really recreate the actual flying characteristics of a real fighter but with the thousands of hours some have logged over the years, that would have to help quite a bit.
When you figure most pilots at the end of the war were under trained and lacked experience, especially those on the Axis side. It just makes me wonder how close the skill sets of some of the top sticks here in AH, would compare to real WW2 sticks. This is ofcourse assuming they went through the same training as the WW2 pilots did.
I suck at this game, so I'm not a good person to talk to.
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I believe that if it were possible for the better sticks to fly the real birds I would be making a fortune by investing in air sick bag companies. :D
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... Then there are the guys who ARE pilots in this game.
Yes.
But how many of them get shot at by other aircraft for real on a regular basis?
two seperate things.
Here nobody is really worried about dying. Thus they dont have that kind of pressure.
In the game if you get shot down or killed. Oh well just up another plane and hope you do better next time.
In real combat if you get shot down or killed.
Well ,it might just ruin your whole day.
Hard to say how any of our real pilots might react under the same set of circumstances as they faced in WWII unless they really faced it.
Some who may do great in a sim might crack completely when faced with real combat.
While others who dont do so great might be outstanding when faced with that kind of pressure
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This thread is a troll right?
It is ridiculous to compare any level of sim experience in something as gamey as this of all things to real world aviation, especially at a combat level.
I've spent years with 747 sims in FS/Vatsim with real world fixed wing experience and helicopter ratings.
<snip>
<S>...-Gixer
I disagree. Proper comaparisons have been made. I don't think the initial topic was totally out of context with the real world. It was a legitamate and interisting question.
Why is that anytime someone tries to have an intellectual conversation here that everyone has to be a pessimistic retard. Can none of you think out of the box? Are there no "THINKERS" here.
Sometimes the most rediclulous ideas forge real working ones. Why can't we have a discussion about something without the dam "troll" comment.
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I disagree. Proper comaparisons have been made. I don't think the initial topic was totally out of context with the real world. It was a legitamate and interisting question.
Why is that anytime someone tries to have an intellectual conversation here that everyone has to be a pessimistic retard. Can none of you think out of the box? Are there no "THINKERS" here.
Sometimes the most rediclulous ideas forge real working ones. Why can't we have a discussion about something without the dam "troll" comment.
Ok THINK about it for a second yourself. Does playing a F1 game on your PC give you the abilities to then jump into a real F1 car drop the clutch without stalling and complete a lap of Monza? Let alone a race? The sim might give you a basic knowledge of the track layout and car controls. But driving the real thing is leaps and bounds and a world of difference above any sim experience. Same deal for flight sims but to an even higher degree.
Think... It's more Dreaming imho.
<S>...-Gixer
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ya and also the "pucker" factor that my father and law likes to talk about. I think maybe some theory of ACM and general concepts might carry over, but I don't really think your going to have much of an advantage over someone who has never touched this sim before. It would be a bit like saying that because you play alot of NASCAR on your xbox360, that you would be a good NASCAR driver. Or if you played alot of WoW, you would make a great fairy paladin, or an elf wizard.
Actually.. the theory does carry over from racing games to real racing. Granted I have never raced raced NASCAR but I have raced on many of the big NASCAR tracks like Charlotte and Daytona, among others like Road Atlanta and many smaller less known tracks. I used to drive lay-down shifter karts (think a go kart that you lay on your back like a bob sled and it has a 250cc engine on it).
I can tell you for a fact that even the old school games back then (late 90's) actually helped me in real racing. In fact I learned how to wash out my front end to keep the rear end from coming un-glued from the arcade game Indy 500 by Sega. (crappy video of the game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJymi8qUYhA )
In short what I learned in that game was if I found my self with the rear of the car getting lose and about to spin, I could move the steering wheel side to side with quick motions and it would end up loosening the front end allowing the rear end to get a grip again. I used to go to the Arcade and play that game once a week for a half hour to a hour because it was the closest I could get to being on the track and that move ended up becoming second nature to me.
Putting it to use in real life happened just because I learned it on the video game. I was racing at a track called Roebling Road (http://www.roeblingroad.com/) and going around a off camber corner when my rear-end started getting lose and I was about to spin. Instinctively from playing that video game I quickly moved my steering wheel side to side and it did exactly the same thing the game did. The rear end got it's grip back because I temporally loosened up the front end. I likely would have never learned that move with out having done it hundreds of times in the video game.
Another thing that game did (Indy 500) was greatly stepped up my reaction times. I remember the first time I ever saw that game a dude was playing it who raced rally cars. I was blown away because the game was so fast, I couldn't see how he was reacting so quickly.. When I first tried I was hitting wall left and right. After many quarters and hours of practice I later had people standing behind me watching asking how I was reacting so fast to the turns.
That game was the only racing game I ever played that gave me the actual feel of being on the track. If you have ever driven on a race track at 120 to 150mph+ you get so focused on what you are doing, everything around you seems to slow down. I don't really know how to explain it but it's a totally diffrent feeling being in the car doing those speeds vs watching it. Your brain is working so fast and your reaction times are so fast that you actually feel like your going much slower. That Indy 500 game is the first and only game that ever gave me that same feeling.
Aso there are many NASCAR guys as well as other drivers from other racing types that do use racing game to help with things like reaction timing.
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Ok THINK about it for a second yourself. Does playing a F1 game on your PC give you the abilities to then jump into a real F1 car drop the clutch without stalling and complete a lap of Monza? Let alone a race? The sim might give you a basic knowledge of the track layout and car controls. But driving the real thing is leaps and bounds and a world of difference above any sim experience. Same deal for flight sims but to an even higher degree.
Think... It's more Dreaming imho.
<S>...-Gixer
You are trying to be too much of a realist because the idea doesn't fit into your conceived idea of how things work now. Think out side the box for at least 1 min.. First off as Agent said the military does use simulators now, so if they didn't work the US military wouldn't be spending millions of dollars on them.
Basically the idea behind this topic was knowing that the Military didn't have simulators back then, the pilots had to get in the air to learn things and they didn't really get enough training. In short their training came down to, if they lived they learned something, if they didn't well they were dead.
So with that said even though we know AH isn't a realistic flight sim it surely would have helped in training IMHO. If nothing else it would give them basic understanding of ACM and situational awareness and likely even teach gunnery. Is it going to teach them how to fly a real world plane or how to react to getting shot at in real life? No of course not, but to say someone who has put in thousands of hours in a game like this wouldn't have a leg up after real world training is a bit crazy IMHO. Especially considering the lack of real world training most pilots had in WW2.
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So with that said even though we know AH isn't a realistic flight sim it surely would have helped in training IMHO. If nothing else it would give them basic understanding of ACM and situational awareness and likely even teach gunnery. Is it going to teach them how to fly a real world plane or how to react to getting shot at in real life? No of course not, but to say someone who has put in thousands of hours in a game like this wouldn't have a leg up after real world training is a bit crazy IMHO. Especially considering the lack of real world training most pilots had in WW2.
I understand the point exactly, but there is a massive gap between cartoon planes in a PC game and real world aviation. And yes I probably am a realist because I can compare the experience of real flight and real commercial airline full motion simulators to a desktop PC and they are worlds apart.
Basic understanding of ACM from hours in here yes, but not much higher then reading ACM manuals back to front and playing with models. SA and gunnery? No. Actually being able to fly, no of course not. At least we agree on that one.
This is the same exact argument that comes up over and over again in aviation forums, where some sim guy will claim that if there was a cockpit emergency he could take over and land the plane. Take said sim guy and just stick him in a full motion Level-D simulator and they just sit there like dumb chickens quickly realising that their PC is a little more basic then a real FMC. And that sim experience means little once your in the seat and at the controls they quickly get overloaded with everything that's happening and stop thinking. Even before adding all the procedures and ATC.
I used PC flightsim simulators prior to and when I was doing my flight training. But only for one reason and that was for practicing circuit procedures and ATC. Nothing else. I quickly dumped the PC for just spending more time in the tower itself which was far more beneficial to my training.
<S>...-Gixer
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In RL you got sucked up off the street, in some cases, and thrown into flight training. Sent out to the field and off you went. I can't see why any one of the people that play here wouldn't make excellent fighter pilots. Many of the aces of days gone by were just average schmucks till they hit the sky.
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Two completly different things. Flying an airplane under those circumstances cannot be compared to what we do here. And on top of that, throw in all the factors of g forces and that that was for real. Know many pilots who can't fly sims and many sim guys who couldn't be pilots.
I think Adonai flies planes for the Marines, last I heard.
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It would have been alot colder in those cockpits also..... :cool:
50 cents
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I can't see why any one of the people that play here wouldn't make excellent fighter pilots. Many of the aces of days gone by were just average schmucks till they hit the sky.
For many of them, age would be a problem. Real ACM, especially with WWII planes is profoundly physical.
In WWII, the single most important attribute for a fighter pilot was probably eyesight, to spot the enemy first. Remember, 80% of kills were scored against guys who were spotted first and never saw the bandit bouncing them. Then there would be aggression and shooting ability...there was a very strong correlation between having a good score in the air and having grown up in a rural setting getting meat with a shotgun. Taught you to understand, deflection, etc.
And the last important attribute was G-forces. No doubt there were many t'n'b fights won in WWII by aircraft that could be considered worse turners, simply because the pilot could stand more G's and get around for a shot before better sustained turning ability became a factor.
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It would have been alot colder in those cockpits also..... :cool:
50 cents
Not in the Spit Mk. VI, VII, B-29, 109 Gustav's or Ta-152.
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thus the reason i fly a spit....warmer lol
50 cents
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that do use racing game to help with things like reaction timing.
Being a track junky, myself, there is some merit to this comparison. By the same token, however, what the game still can not simulate are the ancillary things.
The noise you hear around turn one that makes you wonder if you have you have a belt slipping, the slip of a clutch youre burning indicates that you need to let it out sooner, the resistance of a syncho that youll have to replace next week, the feel of tire compression, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on. Those thousands of assessments that your brain is making every second dont need to be made in a game.
Beyond that, although Ive never driven at Laguna Seca, I imagine going through the corkscrew is a very different experience (read: WHOA, slow down!) IRL than in a game.
With that in mind, sure we have a better understandsing of theoretical ACM than would a green flight recruit, but we dont have the benefit of having been exposed to the ancillary things.
I love 109's. I think they are beautiful aircraft, and I fly them often in AH - when I can tolerate working an A/C for a tater shot for 20 seconds only to have a Spixteen swoop in and waste him with his entire hizzoka load.
However. If you put me in the cockpit of a real one, I wouldnt even know how to prime the engine for start, let alone operate flaps, trim, prop pitch and speed, fuel mixture, etc, etc.
Assuming I could even get the thing airborne without killing myself, what then? All of the sudden the sterile environment of my PC chair has turned into a psycho roller coaster, I just hit my head on the side of the canopy, the guns dont match up with the site which I turned on by accident looking for the cigarette lighter, the ground is real and that split S doesnt look like such a good idea at 1500ft AGL.
Etc, etc, etc.
You could go both ways with the argument, IMO. Initially, I think that AH stick time would be a disadvantage. Where as a raw recruit would simply do what he was told - we would have an expectation that would need to be broken, first.
By contrast, if you could get past the huge differences between driving/flying on a PC and driving/flying IRL, youd probably have a leg up, yes.
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I would have to say I would fear better in the real world than I do here. purely due to the fact that I can not get the feel. I have never flown before but I liken it to driving sims for this particular case. in a game I have no chance of feeling the inertia, weight, and the greatest, truest sense the gut. If i was to drive like I do in sims I would be dead, or at the least un-insurable.(and yes I do push the boundaries of my vehicle on a regular basis, please don't tell my mum). I don't believe these sims this help me much on what I know of myself and learning style.
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In RL you got sucked up off the street, in some cases, and thrown into flight training. Sent out to the field and off you went. I can't see why any one of the people that play here wouldn't make excellent fighter pilots. Many of the aces of days gone by were just average schmucks till they hit the sky.
Oh I think the 85% rejection rate of WWII combat pilots has something to do with it. Higher at some points in the war.
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Interesting topic, but a lot more training would have to be done for an AHer to succeed in WWII. There is only a little teamwork here, and then only if you're lucky. The planes physics are wrong here. (Here's hint #1: The center of gravity is forward of the center of lift on a real airplane. If you really lost your elevators and horizontal stabilizers, you would pitch nose down, not nose up, and would oscillate badly all the way down.) The torque is wrong and is way under stated, and then disappears with a little speed. (The Spit 14, for example, couldn't go to full throttle until about 50 MPH, due to not enough rudder control.) There is no feeling for what the plane is doing. There's no sense that the ground is coming up at you really, really fast, and you're going to die if you don't pull out NOW. There's never an engine problem, or some other mechanical/electrical/gun malfunction. The 163's don't blow up all by themselves here. And, possible most importantly, the planes here don't compare the same as in real life, so if you think you're going to drop your flaps and turn fight with <insert favorite turn fighting plane here>, you're likely to find yourself wondering what happened, as you get out turned by something that's not supposed to turn that well.
Now having said all that, there are some people with excellent ACM skills here, but that's only a small part of the equation.
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UAV
:noid
:noid
:noid
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I can pick my plane, pick my side, pick my job, pick when I fly, pick the airfield, pick the fight, the weather is always good, I don't have to worry about cold, mechanical difficulties, engine management, fuel, metal fatigue. Fear and dying are not part of the equation. hard to compare I think.
That being said, my son flew lots of flight sim stuff. When he was eleven I bought him an hour with an instructor on his birthday. The instructor was impressed with what he knew and how he handled the Cessna 152.
That he'd 'taken off and flown' in a flight sim and had a general understanding of how aircraft worked and how the controls worked certainly made a difference.
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Flew a stick-controlled aircraft the other day for the first time.
The owner (commercial pilot) said something like "it's obvious you've done this before".
Understanding does indeed make a difference.
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My point was that there is no way to tell who can do it and can't until it's being done. Besides all of the disqualifiers, old, fat, dumb, weak (of which I fall into some of the afore mentioned categories), any one of us could have been an Eric Hartman, given the right circumstances. As far as correlation? No way to know.
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Assuming the AH pilot also had good eyesight and the nerves to fly in WWII combat, then I think a good AH pilot would be a good WWII fighter pilot. AH is realistic enough so that it's ACM skills translate to real aircraft.
Many years back, I and two friends went to Air Combat USA. One was a commercial-rated pilot with 1000's of hours in all types of aircraft, with some aerobatic experience, but not a great deal. I was an Air Warrior pilot with some experience in real planes (private-pilot level) and a lot in Air Warrior. The third was an Air Warrior pilot with just about zero experience in real planes but again a lot in Air Warrior. In the combats, I and the other AW pilot handily beat the commercial pilot.
Flying a real plane takes learning, but I think that learning ACM and gunnery takes enormously more. This is born out in AH, where just learning to fly is quick, but becoming good at fighting takes a long time; and it is born out in real life, where pilots learned regular flying and navigation fairly readily, but only through longer experience or a great innate knack or both did they learn to become effective fighter pilots. ACM, situational awareness, gunnery -- these you can learn about in Aces High, and it would (and in my case did) translate to real aircraft. Learning how to run a real airplane (how to manage the engines, the fuel, navigation, etc.) is something AH doesn't teach, but that is more-standard stuff that all pilots seem to master without great difficulty.
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Yikes; by the time I got back to reading this thread it has Exploded
(http://www.diller.ca/images/eek.png)
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i think one of the biggest differences would be the stress the body goes through in comparison to the game
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Well just based off physical size a number of us would not make it in the WW11 era. As most planes were not designed to hold guys that were tall & that is not factoring in girth either. Health would be a major issue as well as sight. Then the flight training would weed a lot of us out as well. Quite a few would not make it as a fighter jock & probably ended up in bombers or transports. I am sure a few would get to the end & make it to.
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i think one of the biggest differences would be the stress the body goes through in comparison to the game
I don't think g's would be a deciding factor. 6 g's isn't that bad. The wear of long missions and mental stress would be a much, much higher bar, I think.
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Heck even not tucking the corners on your bed would get most of the guys here cut! :D
Your ego is writing checks your body cant cash!
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I believe that anyone in AH with stardard Fighter Pilot Training could've been a good pilot in WW2, of Course meeting these Qualifications:
Good Eyesight (Or Airforce Requirement)
Deemed Physically fit (no health issues) to handle Dogfighting G stresses.
Quick Reactions, Work Well under pressure (One being you may lose your life any second now)
If anyone that plays this game qualifies with all of the above and of course recieves the standard training everyone else recieves, (Learning the engine control and management and all the other yummy complex stuff :D) I dont see why that person would not make a good WWII fighter Pilot.
I mean doesnt having an understanding of what your trying to do make it easier to do? (ACM, Deflection shooting, Angles of attack etc...)
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Heck even not tucking the corners on your bed would get most of the guys here cut! :D
Your ego is writing checks your body cant cash!
Me? No, really, 6 g's isn't that bad. I've experienced 6 g's, it didn't seem that bad.
Let's put it this way. Your opponent has 200 regular flight candidates to take through basic WWII-standards flight training and then into combat. You can have 200 such regular flight candidates, or you can take 200 good AH pilots who are otherwise (physically and psychologically) as qualified as the others. Whichever group you pick, you'll take them through the same WWII flight training and then into combat. Which would you rather have?
I would rather have the AH pilots, and I think that they'd be on average much better at air combat. This isn't based on ego -- it's just based on my judgement of it and a very limited amount of related experience.
If a country had AH back in the days of WWII, I think they'd have used it a lot in training, and I think it would have been very effective.
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Yikes; by the time I got back to reading this thread it has Exploded
It's because of your avatar pic.
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Sure, just as much as reading comic books makes you invincible and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
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In AW there was a guy named Blake . He went to one of those ace combat things wish I could find his write up . He went against a F-15 pilot who was interviewing for a job . He whipped the dewd pretty handily . Was a great write up . I think it was on the old bigweek bbs
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As an AH pilot, I'd probably be much more scared than a ww2 young-boy...
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playing "excitebike" makes you a very crumby motocrosser in real life. I know that for sure. Gotta believe flying areal fighter in real conditions, has very little in common with what we do in here.
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Me? No, really, 6 g's isn't that bad. I've experienced 6 g's, it didn't seem that bad.
Let's put it this way. Your opponent has 200 regular flight candidates to take through basic WWII-standards flight training and then into combat. You can have 200 such regular flight candidates, or you can take 200 good AH pilots who are otherwise (physically and psychologically) as qualified as the others. Whichever group you pick, you'll take them through the same WWII flight training and then into combat. Which would you rather have?
I would rather have the AH pilots, and I think that they'd be on average much better at air combat. This isn't based on ego -- it's just based on my judgement of it and a very limited amount of related experience.
If a country had AH back in the days of WWII, I think they'd have used it a lot in training, and I think it would have been very effective.
Yea that's my thinking with this topic..
Granted most in the MA's don't spend time learning real ACM and so on..However there are guys that know their stuff. Granted there are many things AH can't teach in regard to actually flying a air plane but it can still teach a lot of things. If used as a teaching tool it could teach things like wing-man tactics, SA, gunnery and so on.. Will it teach you how to start the engine or handle stress and long cold missions.. Well of course not, but I think if given the same real life training and assuming they made it through the qualifications. Well I would think the AH sticks would have an advantage just by the experance of hours flown in a virtual game.
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In AW there was a guy named Blake . He went to one of those ace combat things wish I could find his write up . He went against a F-15 pilot who was interviewing for a job . He whipped the dewd pretty handily . Was a great write up . I think it was on the old bigweek bbs
Yea I know a guy that has gone through all the testing and training and was just accepted for training in the Dutch Air Force to fly F-16's. He will be coming over here in January to Sheppard AFB for his training. I tried to get him to fly AH but I guess he was too busy doing the real pilot chit.
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playing "excitebike" makes you a very crumby motocrosser in real life. I know that for sure. Gotta believe flying areal fighter in real conditions, has very little in common with what we do in here.
I can't see that motocross on a simulator would have anything useful to translate to real riding of motorcycles. That's my opinion having done a large amount of off-road riding in my life on motocross bikes.
Flight simulators are a totally different matter. That's my opinion having done both a large amount of flying of AW and AH, having flown normal private planes (like Cessna 152's), and having flown at Air Combat USA in dogfights with other planes.
I think the ACM, gunnery, and situational awareness folks learn here in flying around simulated WWII planes would substantially translate to flying real WWII-class planes in dogfights.