Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Vudak on August 11, 2008, 02:58:31 PM
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Hey all,
I am not a computer guy, by any means. When the machine breaks, it goes into the shop. I don't know how to fix them, I don't know how to clean them, and I certainly don't know how to upgrade them.
That said, my machine is getting older, louder, and probably on its deathbed. I'm getting a little sick of going a few weeks at a time without it as it's in the shop, and I'm not happy at all about the prospect of overpaying some company to send me a prebuilt PC that's going to have all the headaches of vista in it.
I've noticed from these threads that I could save a ton of money, and spare myself the horrors of vista, by building a machine by myself... The question is... Just how easy is it to do? When you open these things up, are they largely plug & play? Have any of you that share my technical ineptitude managed to pull this off? Are the instructions straight forward, or do you need to know several languages?
I was thinking about ordering a few parts at a time, as they go on sale, while I use my current machine until it dies. Hopefully a few things (Monitor) I can get some use out of right now, while others (XP) I can buy now while they're still available.
You think I could pull this off relatively hassle-free, or am I going to develop a nervous twitch? :)
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Builing a PC is a lot easier than it was say 10 years ago. A lot of setups are auto configured and pretty easy. When I did my first computer, I had to set jumpers and dip switches for some settings on processor speed and front side bus, and years before that it was even more tricky. Today and over the last several years almost everything is auto-configure/setup and all you have to really do is make sure that all cables are plugged in and to the right spot.
There are countless of How To Build PC webpages and videos out there. Check out Youtube since video can help as you can see someone do it instead of text/pictures.
If you're thinking about it, I'd ask yourself a few questions. Do you like to tinker with stuff? Are you at least pretty good on assembly of stuff? Say furniture, kids toys, DVD/TV setup? How is your computer knowledge? You know at least the basics of CPU, RAM, Hard drive etc?
Do you know of anyone personally that has more experience with computers than you? That is, maybe built one themselves? Having a physical person there helping you with the first time build can teach you a lot and avoid a lot of headaches. If I didn't have my buddies there to help with my first build, I would have been lost myself.
And if you do decide to do it, the frequent forum geeks here can help out immensely.
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Case
Motherboard
Central Processing Unit(CPU)
Random Access Memory(RAM)
Hard Drive(HDD)
Power Supply Unit(PSU)
Videocard
CD Drives
Cooling(CPU Fan, Case Fans, Etc)
Basically the only things you need to build a comp, not nearly as hard as you would think. Sometimes there is other things you need like a Modem if your using Dial-up. The real trick is getting compatible parts, your comp should be built around your PSU and Motherboard. I probably learned one of the worst ways, by taking apart my first comp and then putting it back together because I was having cooling problems after that I read up on a lot of stuff and eventually you just catch one and things start to click. As Fulmar explain there are plenty of sites with information on how to build comps. and explain how everything works. For the most part everything in a computer is just plug in, hookup 1 - 2 wires, and install drivers and it's good. Feel free to ask questions and I'll be happy to help, and plenty of other guys I'm sure.
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Hey all,
I am not a computer guy, by any means. When the machine breaks, it goes into the shop. I don't know how to fix them, I don't know how to clean them, and I certainly don't know how to upgrade them.
That said, my machine is getting older, louder, and probably on its deathbed. I'm getting a little sick of going a few weeks at a time without it as it's in the shop, and I'm not happy at all about the prospect of overpaying some company to send me a prebuilt PC that's going to have all the headaches of vista in it.
I've noticed from these threads that I could save a ton of money, and spare myself the horrors of vista, by building a machine by myself... The question is... Just how easy is it to do? When you open these things up, are they largely plug & play? Have any of you that share my technical ineptitude managed to pull this off? Are the instructions straight forward, or do you need to know several languages?
I was thinking about ordering a few parts at a time, as they go on sale, while I use my current machine until it dies. Hopefully a few things (Monitor) I can get some use out of right now, while others (XP) I can buy now while they're still available.
You think I could pull this off relatively hassle-free, or am I going to develop a nervous twitch? :)
Skillset you need is can you follow directions, can you plug in wires, ...its not hard, you dont need to be a techno geek to build one, only know how to read, and follow directions, look on the internet for help when you get stumped, and take your time.
Balsy
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Not too difficult to do, 1 thing to add to AirFlyers list would be a second computer on hand to look up answers to any questions that arise during the build or program/driver installations.
Check some of the older threads for a wealth of info and tips about problems we encountered during our builds.
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I'm not joking here, It's just like Legos. Only you get to turn it on when your done. If you have any questions just post them here. Someone will be more than happy to help. If you're building a gaming machine you will probably save 1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of a manufactured one from Dell or HP. I posted in a thread somewhere the steps to take. They can vary somewhat though.
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Yeah, listen to these guys here... It's easy...And I'm not saying it just cuz I'm a tech-head.. Just remember to discharge yourself of static before touching anything.. Don't build it anywhere near carpeting if you want to be safe.... Or get one of those static wrist straps from RatShack (Radio Shack)..
Building a system is much less expensive than buying some factory built junk from Dell or whoever else.. When you buy a factory built system, you are paying mainly for the useless software they give you.... Hell!! Some don't even give you the restore discs anymore! You get a restore partition on your hard drive... And if your hard drive fails, you're outa luck!!
I build stuff for friends from time to time as well as build my own stuff.. It's pretty easy.. Buy the parts, install 'em, install your OS, do all the updates... Viola.. You can do it all in an after noon....
If you are using it only for AH, you definitely don't need the best stuff.. You can get away with older hardware.. I played the game on a P4 3.0 ghz with 1 gig of ram for over a year.. My video card was a Geforce 6800GS.. I was still getting decent frame rates will 4X Anti-Aliasing at 1280X1024 resolution.. You can pick up some older hardware from eBay pretty darn cheap these days!
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Thanks guys :)
I guess I can do it... I figure I'll buy a copy of XP while it's still available, and the rest can wait...
Except, perhaps, for a new monitor to take advantage of the new goodies AH is about to offer :D :rock
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It's pretty easy, I looked at a few step by step guides online and went to it,
If I can do it, any primate can.
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Building it's the easy part. Educating yourself so that you're buying the right components to get what you want out of them is more difficult.
I just did my first build in March. I spent almost 3 months researching and assembling the parts list. The actual assembly took about 3 hours (which would have been faster if I hadn't confused myself by reading the "directions"... which are supplied with each component and don't always "mesh"). Software installation, updates and tweaking took about another 5 hours but I had a lot of data to transfer.
I'd suggest that you start assembling your parts list and post it here for review. You'll get a lot of good advice.
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Yes Yes!! To BaldEagl you listen!!
Knowing what parts you want is the important part.. But, on top of that, depends what you want to get.. Find out what the current specifications of your system now.. There are probably a few components you can re-use such as your CD/DVD rom/burners.
If you need help with this, let me know.. I'd be glad to help you out.. Let me know what your dollar limit is and I can give you a few options via TigerDirect/NewEgg/eBay..
As for WindowsXP: If you know anyone that goes to a state college, they can buy a copy of WindowsXP for around $30.00..
But, since XP is not longer in production, I wouldn't be surprised if most schools are out of them.. Online is probably your best bet as you'll get the best price compared to finding one at a store.. You can always check CraigsList too!!
PM me if you require any assistance in knowing what parts to get.. I'd be happy to help you.. :rock
Building it's the easy part. Educating yourself so that you're buying the right components to get what you want out of them is more difficult.
I just did my first build in March. I spent almost 3 months researching and assembling the parts list. The actual assembly took about 3 hours (which would have been faster if I hadn't confused myself by reading the "directions"... which are supplied with each component and don't always "mesh"). Software installation, updates and tweaking took about another 5 hours but I had a lot of data to transfer.
I'd suggest that you start assembling your parts list and post it here for review. You'll get a lot of good advice.
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It's very easy and just in the squad you've got a half done "techies" to help you. If I remember Mwave will actually buildout and test the motherboard CPU combo for like $5 extra...
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I've done it Vudak, it isn't terribly difficult.
I live close enough to you, if you run into problems, I am more than willing to stop by and help you.
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Baldegle is correct. Research the parts. I built a pretty good machine but I was lucky somewhat. I hit on the right parts and am way happy about it. I remember Baldegle doin the research. Once you find some good components post them here so we can all have a luck. Every now and then Skuzzy jumps aboard.
May I be the first to suggest starting with a PC Power and Cooling Power Supply. One of the best around.
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Thanks for all the suggestions and offers for help, everyone :aok :salute
I won't actually be attempting this (hopefully) for another three to four months, but when I do, I'll be sure to check the recent threads, get an idea of what is being suggested, then put together a list and have you all take a look at it...
I do have one question I could use answered before that though... And perhaps it is one that will make you cringe at the thought of me trying to do this all myself :lol but... I want to buy XP now while it's still around (The State college thing is an option I will look into, btw), but, just from looking on newegg... There are several different versions, and I'm not sure which one I'd actually need...
I assume I need the "Home Edition" (not just the upgrade)... But they have several different options, that vary widely in price... For example, they have a SP2 for $191.49, and SP3 "For System Builders" for $89.99... What one do I need?
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I'd say go with XP Professional. SP1, SP2, and SP3 can all be downloaded it so it's not important.
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I'd go for XP Pro, and if you're buying it together with other stuff (mobo, cpu etc) you can buy the OEM version ("for system builders") its alot cheaper.
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The real key to building a puter yourself is setting yourself the task of finding out whats coming down the pipeline.
What does what best, whats compatible with what, what is good and what to avoid.
If you spend even 2 months doing a couple of hours a week research. By the time comes to order you will have a much much better idea of what will run slick and clean with no conflicts. What will work and is worth the money and what is hype and garbage and should be avoided.
I'll give you a freeby, stay away from SLI. :) Double the cost, requires 2 identical video cards, for 10 - 15% increase.
Hardly worth spending all those extra dollars on SLI capable Mboard, and 2nd video card for that now is it.
Also I'd avoid the upgrade trap. Build it as it is for NOW, use it hard for 2 to 3 years, then build a new one.
Don't build it now planning on upgrading video 6 months from now unless you really have no other choice. Better to wait 4 months then build it.
http://www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com)
Last, if you buy a motherboard combo from Mwave.com they will assemble and test it for 9$.
So when the box arrives, the Ram is correctly seated in the correct slots. The CPU is correctly mounted, the CPU cooler is mounted. And you KNOW it all works. That confidence can make all the difference in the world.
So all you have to do is read the motherboard manual, mount the mboard in the chassis, and start hooking things up.
Power in, power button, a few led wires, and your ready to drop drives and cards into it and fire it up.
To steal a line from Home Depot.
"You can DO it! We can help!"
:)
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Guides like "Building a PC for Dummies" are a good start. I knew NOTHING about computers before I built mine, and I built a killer for around $500 - $600. The biggest thing is never to let yourself get frustrated if something doesn't work quite right. With enough work the parts will almost always function together. Two sites I highly recommend buying from are www.newegg.com and www.tigerdirect.com . If you live in a state that tiger charges tax on you can use their sister site www.globalcomputer.com . Hope that helps some.
Also... DO NOT under estimate the fan needed for a dual core processor. Be certain to get one designed for cooling two CPUs or your processor will overheat.
Intel Pentium D 840 3.2GHz CPU
Intel 945PVs Motherboard
ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro 512MB Video Card
@Power 500W Power Supply
20x DVD Burner
Windows XP Home Edition/Fedora 8 OS
Seagate 320GB Hard Drive
Ultra 1GB RAM
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Also... DO NOT under estimate the fan needed for a dual core processor. Be certain to get one designed for cooling two CPUs or your processor will overheat.
Unless your going to be seriously overclocking the stock fan that comes with (at least with Intel) the CPU should be fine.
I've got an Intel E6750 Core 2 Duo 2.66 Gig overclocked to 3.2 Ghz running with the stock Intel fan. I idle at less than 30C and run ~50C under most loads (~60C under 100% load to both cores running Prime95). The CPU is good for about another 0.5 Ghz in overclock speed (I've heard of people hitting 3.9 Ghz with this CPU) but at that amount of OC I'd need to upgrade the fan/heatsink due to the required additional voltage input.
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Ok, just let me state for the record that I've only ever bought commercially-made computers three times in my life. They were two Macs and a Dell I picked up two weeks ago for my wife. I've built probably 10 or 11 computers over that same time from parts, and my current computer is one I built from parts and upgraded multiple times over the last three years, etc.
Having said all that, a good friend of mine sells a lot of Dell computers in his business as a Windows networking and sysadmin consultant with dozens of clients. Every time we talk about it he gets closer and closer to convincing me that I shouldn't even bother building my own machine anymore and just buy a Dell. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm close enough I was willing to buy a Dell for my wife when that old AthlonXP 2800 system of mine that she's been using started having motherboard problems.
Here's the reason. You spec out a decent machine, including every part you will need to buy to build it, and a legitimate copy of Windows XP or Vista or whatever, and then price it out on Newegg. Chances are I can go configurate a similar box at the Dell website and be pretty much the same price, or close enough not to matter.
And the Dell will come with a minimum 1 year on-site warranty. If something goes on the fritz, Dell will send someone out immediately to fix it. For a modest price you can up that warranty to 2 or more years. Not to mention the Dell cases are decent, and the fans are quiet. My wife's new Dell is probably the quietest computer I've ever owned since the relatively quiet Mac IIsi.
My friend the consultant just bought himself a new Dell XPS 730 system with butt-kicking Core 2 Quad cpu with the 12mb cache, 4 gb of DDR3 ram, Geforce GTX 280, Xi-Fi sound card, dvd burner, 750 gig hard drive, and Vista Home Premium, and a same-day onsite four year warranty. He priced out all the parts at Newegg and figured out he came within a hundred bucks or so of the do-it-yourself price, and unlike the home system builder he's got the four year freaking onsite warranty. His machine can, um, break in 3.5 years and Dell will fix it or replace it with a current model.
Oh yeah, and if you buy when Dell is offering specials, you can get good deals on monitors and whatnot. When I bought my wife's new Dell I was able to throw in a 22" Dell widescreen (non-Ultrasharp) lcd for $110 over just the computer alone. That's like a $280 monitor. I bought my wife a 22" Dell lcd a year ago to use with her old computer, so she didn't need another monitor. I paid the $110 and got the 22" lcd for myself. I plugged it in next to my 24" Dell ultrasharp lcd and now I've got them both running side by side. Great deal.
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I guess to me the difference is if I built it I own that machine. I have the drivers, I know whats in the box. If there is a problem I can fix it. I'm not tied to someone else's customer service.
If a virus hits me hard I know I can boot from the windows CD, repartition, reformat, reinstall and get everything back loaded in half a day.
When you buy a machine you don't always get to make all the choices you want. And your depending on someone else to fix any problems. How many different motherboards does dell really offer? 3? 4?
Go take a look at the motherboard list on Mwave or Newegg.
I see your reasoning, and if thats your choice thats fine. It just won't be mine any time soon.
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Dell :rolleyes:
The only time I would consider buying an extended warranty on a computer is for a laptop. Mainly because if the motherboard goes, I'm up a creek unless I want to shell out a lot more than what the computer is worth. Some plans include free batteries which is also nice.
For me, buying an off the shelf computer is like having a mechanic take his car into get his oil changed. Doesn't make sense. When I build a computer, I know what parts I put into it, who made the parts, how well each part operates in benchmarks and is reviewed. My customization options are far greater than anything I can custom order.
However, I am my own warranty. Yet, the last part that failed me in under a year was probably some cheap 56K modem I bought 7-8 years ago. $10 and you get what you pay for there. And extended warranty longer on that? I generally swap out parts as an upgrade within a 3-4 year span either way. *Knock on wood* The only hardware pieces that worry me and have failed me in the past are PSU's and hard drives. These parts out lived their warranties, but eventually failed. My 1 VC that was dying was replaced under its lifetime warranty.
I have only once taken something to a computer repair shop and that was for my wife's laptop. The solder on the power plug had developed a loose connection. What I thought was an easy fix became unreasonable after I checked out the disassembly instructions for her Toshiba just to get to the plug. I probably could have down it, but she's the type of person that likes things in mint condition and had kept her 3+ year old laptop in almost virgin condition. So as complicated as it was to take apart the whole computer I gladly forked over the money to a local service shop.
Granted I buy 98% of my parts online, I do try and support local shops over Best Buy as much as I can if I need a part ASAP, or they offering a sale. I loved it the last time I was in Sh*t Buy and saw a sales rep talk someone into getting 'Geek Squad optimization' done on their brand new PC they're buying. Commission sales in atmospheres such as that are the root of all evil IMO.
For someone with not a lot of time on their hands, and off the shelf computer probably works best for you. But then again, you probably didn't get enjoyment out of building it in the first place, or lost interest. Even small upgrades I still get giddy as a little girl when the UPS man comes.
Computers are my main hobby. If you want to buy one off the shelf, that's your own right and I won't argue with you. But IMO, the technical experience gained in building one is well worth it.
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You spec out a decent machine, including every part you will need to buy to build it, and a legitimate copy of Windows XP or Vista or whatever, and then price it out on Newegg. Chances are I can go configurate a similar box at the Dell website and be pretty much the same price, or close enough not to matter.
And the Dell will come with a minimum 1 year on-site warranty. If something goes on the fritz, Dell will send someone out immediately to fix it. For a modest price you can up that warranty to 2 or more years.
Probably true at the low end. Not true at the high end.
I built my new machine in March all inclusive (box, monitor, speakers, etc.) for just under $2000. I just went to the Dell site to test your theory and a similar machine priced out at just over $3400 and that was without the extended warranty. Worse yet, I don't know exactly what's in that Dell machine.
$1400 is a lot to pay for a one year warranty IMO.
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$1400 is a lot to pay for a one year warranty IMO.
If he works for Dell, I'm sure he got a sweet deal on it and paid nowhere near that.
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My friend doesn't work for Dell, he works for us own consultancy, but he has a Dell reseller account that he uses to sell Dell machines to a lot of his customers when they ask him to hook them up with new systems. He does know how to find the deals, discounts, etc. I was surprised that he came as close as the Newegg price on his new machine, but he did. I haven't tried to replicate his success at the high end, but I did do it for my wife's new computer, and I'm satisfied that I got a good deal on a good, solid, fast machine. With its integrated graphics and sound, my wife's machine isn't a gamer box, but it isn't intended to be. And with its great cpu and RAM, it wouldn't cost me that much to get it playable for most games including AHII.
I sympathize with the comments others have made about knowing what's in your box, the mechanic taking his car in for an oil change, etc. That's why I said I'm personally not quite ready to abandon my own self-building for my own personal computers. I'm just thinking about it and considering my options, and I'm warming up to the idea. I can't say whether I'll build my own when I finally replace my AthlonX2 4400/geforce 8800gtx machine or not, but at least for the first time in my life that is even an option I'm considering. I've only ever bought one commercial system for myself (the Mac IIsi back in 1992), the other two were for my wife (a G4 iMac in around 2000/2001) and this new Dell.
Here's the thing. Modern-day PC components generally suck. Back in earlier days computers seemed more reliable to me. That Mac IIsi ran for freaking ever until I finally just threw it away - it still ran fine, I just had no use for it anymore. But I've had a lot of problems with components and whatnot in recent years. Having a good onsite warranty for most people would be a Godsend. You guys know what a PITA it is when something goes titsup on your machine and you're stuck either making a long drive to the nearest Fry's or else ordering online and waiting a couple days for it to arrive. Meanwhile you're offline.
In the end, the OP has never built his own computer. He hasn't got years of experience doing this, like me and you guys who are commenting on this. I'm not sure it's really worth it to people anymore to actually put the time and effort into becoming the hardware hound that people like us are, and dealing with all the hassle.
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By the way, here are some problems I've had in the last few years with components.
My ABIT BP-6 motherboard fried one day when I was changing over heatsinks on my two Celeron 400 cpus. I was careful about static and whatnot and the only thing I could figure out might have been the culprit is that the motherboard flexed a non-trivial amount from the pressure of hooking those metal clips from the heatsinks down onto the plastic cpu sockets, and a trace somewhere broke and the thing never worked again. Crap.
The onboard network controller of my 1 ghz Athlon system stopped working one day, causing a spontaneous system reboot, and that onboard networking never worked again. I went and bought a cheap 10/100 ethernet card and put it in and got it back online, but it was a bother doing it.
I had the onboard sound of another motherboard go out in the same way, by the way, and had to add a pci sound card to get sound working again on that machine.
A year after the onboard ethernet went bad the rest of the motherboard went titsup and I had to replace the whole motherboard. This was a Gigabyte brand motherboard.
A year and a half or so after building my Athlon64 3000 system in the spring of 2005 my Asus motherboard went bad. I actually got Asus to replace the motherboard under warranty (with a "refurbished", not brand new board) but it was a huge PITA dealing with them and I was offline with my main computer for several days. This Athlon64 3000 machine, btw, was the one I'm using now but upgraded to an AthlonX2 4400 cpu a year and a half or two years ago. Oh yeah, and I put the machine in a different case as well, and added three more hard drives, upgraded the video card, etc.
I had an eVGA video card go bad on me and get replaced under warranty.
I've had two power supplies go bad on me in the last few years. One of them was on my AthlonXP 2800 system that I turned off one Christmas vacation for about a week, and when I tried turning it back on when I returned home it simply never fired back up, and the power supply was tested and was certifiably dead. That wasn't my main box by that time so I let it sit for a while, then replaced the power supply and gave the machine to my wife along with a 22" Dell widescreen to replace her ages-old G4 iMac.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the old Geforce 3 card on that system was flaking out and I replaced it with a newer but still cheap and good-enough-for-my-wife ATI card. She used that machine for another year or two and then the machine started experiencing random reboots. Recently the reboots had gotten pretty bad and it would often do it while she was still using it. I ran some tests to confirm that it wasn't the RAM that was bad, but that it was definitely a hardware issue. It had to be either the power supply, the motherboard, or the cpu. I replaced the power supply and the system still failed the tests (the OCCT tool and rebooting from a memory test cd and running the memtest), so I returned the power supply to Frys and bought the Dell. This is because it was either the cpu or the motherboard, and this was an ancient system by now and not worth trying to replace a 5 year old cpu and motherboard.
And what's my point? My point is that this kind of crap happens in the computer world nowadays, and not everyone knows how to, or is willing to, deal with it themselves. Since the OP has never done this before, obviously he's not really a hardware hound, and I'd really hesitate to recommend that a hardware non-enthusiast get into assembling their own machines from parts, because when trouble happens, they're going to be frustrated and be without their machines for a while.
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In the end, the OP has never built his own computer. He hasn't got years of experience doing this, like me and you guys who are commenting on this. I'm not sure it's really worth it to people anymore to actually put the time and effort into becoming the hardware hound that people like us are, and dealing with all the hassle.
Without having a time machine, I can safely say that 40 years ago, there were a lot more average car owners that did maintenance on their vehicles. However, the components were no where near as complex as they are today (with the addition of multiple computers, sensors, and the world's dumbest design engineers). So, we're faced with taking it to the mechanic. And that can be no fun.
Now if I were to compare building a computer today as compared to building it 15 years ago, I can only say that it is easier. We have a much larger aftermarket supply than we did back than (by leaps and bounds). Most drivers and BIOS settings are auto-configure, no more jumpers or dipswitches to mess around with. I remember my dad buying his first home computer, an IBM Aptiva 120mhz. It came with about 5 or 6 large (100+ pages) manuals IIRC. He just bought a new HP machine (1/4 the cost of that Aptiva) and it had a fold out map to show connections and had 1 or 2 10 page brochure size registration stuff. Granted the Aptiva stuff was mostly fluff and the new HP had the manuals stored on a cd or hd.
I would encourage the home build because your off the shelf computer (especially Dell's) are using proprietary parts. That is, a custom layout motherboard. Proprietary connections for the PSU and motherboard. The aftermarket world in comparison is more standardized. ATX board have been around for 10 years and still dominate the vast majority of the market. Case and PSU connections only have varied slightly. Motherboard still offer IDE connections along with their new SATA connections. My dad's HP only had SATA (which is good in a sense). So if you're not under warranty on your off the shelf PC, you could get bent over a folding chair and be taken to town. So I'm gonna spend how much on a warranty over the one year period?
Aftermarket parts generally come with decent warranties by themselves. And by building your machine you can become more attuned to what is going wrong with the PC. My video card has a lifetime wararnty. Processors are 3 years IIRC (but when was the last time you had to warranty a processor due to it being at fault). Hard drives can have up to a 5 year warranty. Motherboards generally a year. Ram? Lifetime on almost every brand. CD/DVD drive? They're only $20-30. PSU's can be a deal breaker however.
The more you're going to invest your time on a PC, the more knowledgeable you're going to get, period. You're going to learn the proper procedures on how to keep that machine going, data back up etc etc. It hurts me to think about how many times I've known someone that lost their family photos because they didn't know the dangers of not backing anything up. (Sorry this section is off track).
To sum it up, if his interest is there, he has the pocket book to do it (not on the cheap), and the patience....the rewards can be very good.
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I would rather be the person that knows what is going on, than rather say "I don't have the time or patience for this, do what you must." My wife, God bless her, has zero to no patience. And when she doesn't understand something and it's not working, I've seen her blood boil (maybe a little exaggerated). She is the exact reason I do not work in the customer service field. Thankfully for her, she married me and if something is broke or goes wrong with anything, I'm there to fix it for her.
The less middlemen you have, the happier the world is.
There isn't a person that builds computers that hasn't run into problems before either. I had built my wife a computer but developed problems 6 months down the road. I learned A LOT from those headaches, especially in quality of components. Turn around time to fix it was about a week, but she survived. I myself could compile quite the list of problems I've had over the years. I'm not sure what I could tell you if I had never cracked open the side of my computer. Calling for tech support is NEVER any fun.
Having the skills I have in building computers has allowed me to help myself save money, aid coworkers and family/friends in their computer needs/troubles. The headaches I've gone through were far outweighed by my own enjoyment doing it and the many thanks I received for helping a person in need.
However, there is a need for a market of onsite repair. There are mission critical things that people and businesses need down ASAP to keep them running, no matter what. I won't argue with that. But it depends on your needs.
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Unless your going to be seriously overclocking the stock fan that comes with (at least with Intel) the CPU should be fine.
I've got an Intel E6750 Core 2 Duo 2.66 Gig overclocked to 3.2 Ghz running with the stock Intel fan. I idle at less than 30C and run ~50C under most loads (~60C under 100% load to both cores running Prime95). The CPU is good for about another 0.5 Ghz in overclock speed (I've heard of people hitting 3.9 Ghz with this CPU) but at that amount of OC I'd need to upgrade the fan/heatsink due to the required additional voltage input.
You guys know I'm not one to stir the pot. :D But-t-t-t One AH pilot sent me a screen shot of his comp clocked to 3.8 ghz using a e6850. I omitted his name since it was a private message.
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I've had problems building my comps. Most of them are along the "Duh" lines. Not plugging something in correctly would be #1. #2 would be not researching the components first. That happened when I bought a 8600 gs video card. I've had one slightly bad component. The E8400 chip had bad heat sensors. It ran great though.
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Yeah your sensor thing Getback was a first I've ever heard of.
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Did you ever spend much time building models when you were a kid?
If you answered yes.
Then if you can read and follow instructions. And with the help of the folks here for parts and what goes well with what.
Building your own machine is a snap.
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Did you ever spend much time building models when you were a kid?
If you answered yes.
Then if you can read and follow instructions. And with the help of the folks here for parts and what goes well with what.
Building your own machine is a snap.
Just like Legos. Only you get to turn it on when you're done.
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I’d like to add my experiences as another data point. I used to buy Dell computers a long time ago. At that time it was true that a Dell was only about $100 to $200 more expensive that a home built using similar components. Then Dell changed and the became not as good a value compared to home built, especially if you wanted a high performance system. This was especially true when the basically began forcing you to include some version of MS Office on each new computer (whereas with a home built you could save that money by just installing your old version of Office). So I started building my own computers and I’ve done at least three so far (I’m old and my mind wanders so maybe it was 4).
The first two were nightmares. There were literally dozens of problems that caused many days of debugging to fix. Some examples include: having to buy three different sound cards to get one that worked properly, having the MB use the RAMs SPD even though it couldn’t support that speed, having to upgrade to XP when 98 was unstable on a new MB, massive trouble getting SB drivers to install, many other SW problems, modem problems, wireless card problems… etc. etc. etc.
Now the latest build (a month ago) was easy and nearly flawless. The MB recognized the E8400 (some don’t and must be flashed) and properly defaulted almost everything, including the RAM timing. But even with this system I managed to mess up. First, I installed the memory card reader in the case before installing Windows. So, of course, the memory card slots became C:, D:, E:, and F: and the hard drive became G:. XP got installed on G:. Then the graphics card software failed to install. After several attempts it turns out that it MUST be installed on C:. So, complete reinstall of XP with the card reader disconnected so the HD is C:. Then the WiFi card would not work properly. It kept ignoring my own strong WiFi signal and connecting, at random, to neighbor’s networks (whose signal is near zero). Turns out you have to turn off XP’s Wireless Zero Control service (which appears to be designed to give you zero control over your wireless network ;) ). That caused me to go through two WiFi cards before I got the sequence down and the drivers installed. Then there was the Radeon 4850 video card problem: the BIOS defaults the fan speed to minimum. My card was running idle at 82C ! You have to install their fan control software and up the fan speed (the video drivers won’t do it). This only runs when Windows boots, so if you do a long MEMTEST86 the video card sits there cooking itself (although it’s rated for 125C apparently).
My point: things can go wrong when you build computers yourself. So it behooves one to check not only parts prices on Newegg, but also a comparable system price on Dell and ask yourself if the extra cost for the Dell is worth not having to risk dealing with problems.
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YOU DON'T NEED MS OFFICE!!!!! I hate to interrupt this but www.openoffice.org is free. It was designed for Linux many years ago and it fully cross compatible. The only things it doesn't have yet are a version of Publisher and Outlook. I love it because it's FREE!
On another note, I know a lot of people that own Dells whose warranties have expired by now! If anything goes wrong they're on their own up a creek without a paddle. They know nothing about what is in a computer and almost think they work by magic. You can always tell those people because they say things like, "My computer decided to...", "My computer didn't like that person...", or "I wish I didn't have all these programs start with my computer". When you read how to build a computer you learn a lot about how they work AND all the software on it was put on by you. If you don't want it, it ain't on there. Simplicity!
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I've installed Open Office for people on the cheap. But these people never really used office programs anyways so I can't really comment on it. I still use MS office, but just keep using my old version (Office XP). At work we have 2007 and some features are nice, but it's really the same old stuff. I've recently decided to drop Outlook and go completely gmail. I find it much handier since I now have about 5 emails addresses configured to go to one gmail account. Plus I don't have to back up my email every time I format my computer. Google docs and google calendar also for the win.
But yeah, there are a lot of people out there that really do believe that computers must work like magic and they don't understand how their actions or lack there of on their computer is the root of the problem, not a gremlin slowing it down or whatever. See "People who thought Bonzi Buddy was cute." I knew a person that owned a digital camera and could never figure out where the photos saved on their computer when they connected and transfered the files. Plus, couldnt figure out how to delete the old photos off the memory card and would just buy a new memory card when the old one was full.
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715: The radeon 4850 was operating as designed it's supposed to run at low rpm when idle to avoid noise.
I've never heard of graphics drivers that wouldn't work outside c: which card / drivers were in question?
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715: The radeon 4850 was operating as designed it's supposed to run at low rpm when idle to avoid noise.
I've never heard of graphics drivers that wouldn't work outside c: which card / drivers were in question?
Yes, I know it wants to be quiet, but it does idle at 82C which is mighty hot (a tad more and I could use it to make tea). Buy the way, the BIOS didn't audibly speed up the fan under load, so the card got even hotter, but not much. The card is an Asus EAH4850 (which otherwise is a great card- not bad to get a Teraflop card for $170 after rebate). It may be that the engineers that designed the card know that the chip can handle the high temperatures, and set the fan appropriately. I saw somewhere it was rated to 125C. Setting the fan to 50% makes it "almost" silent and keeps it below 60C, so no problems.
The software that demanded to be installed on C: was Asus SmartDoctor, which is the program that allows setting the fans speed. Yeah, I didn't believe it could be that brain dead either, but it was. When the HD was G: it repeatedly refused to install and when I reformatted so the HD was C: it installed perfectly. (I probably selected auto install. Perhaps there was a custom option that would have allowed me to select G:)
I forgot to note another downside to buying prebuilt systems: as others have pointed out, they often come with tons of shovelware installed. You can't believe the number of background process running on my wifes HP laptop. So that's another tradeoff to consider.
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The software that demanded to be installed on C: was Asus SmartDoctor, which is the program that allows setting the fans speed. Yeah, I didn't believe it could be that brain dead either, but it was. When the HD was G: it repeatedly refused to install and when I reformatted so the HD was C: it installed perfectly. (I probably selected auto install. Perhaps there was a custom option that would have allowed me to select G:)
Yeah, a simple line of code on their part would have made your headache a lot less. I've always like Asus hardware products, but their software stuff has always been sub-par.
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I had installation problems with the software that came with my HIS graphics card. It didn't work. I consider that a big problem at least. I had to completely remove all drivers and software it installed and use the drivers off of ATI's website. The HIS drivers actually crashed my computer and gave me the "Blue Screen Of Death" whenever I tried to use a graphics game. :mad: It works now though. I'm happy. Life is all about what you can learn after all!
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I've had a pre-built IBM, a pre-built Dell, two laptops (Toshiba and Sony) and now my new machine that I built myself. I've experienced problems with every single one of them; some major, some minor.
Buying pre-built is no guarantee that life will be beautiful.
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I have owned several Dell computers and have needed to get two fixed under warranty. They did not replace the computer with an equivalent or better model as was stated in an earlier post. What they did was guess at what was wrong and send replacement parts. Sometimes it took several such calls before they would send a replacement part. I went through a CPU, motherboard, RAM, CD drive, and two hard drive replacements on one machine before it finally worked again. Each part replacement involved hours on the phone waiting and then speaking with techs for whom English was a second language and who, every time, started the troubleshooting with the most basic steps like was the power cord plugged in. Then I had to wait several days for each replacement part, install it, and return the old part only to find that the problem was not fixed. I had to repeat that 6 time before the computer worked again. It was down for over a month during which I spent innumerable hours trying to get it fixed Maybe their repair policy has changed but I doubt it. By the time it was over I felt like they owed me ten computers.
I finally got up the courage to build my own a few months ago based on info in this and other forums and internet sites. It was as easy as BaldEagl and others have said. It has worked fine from the first moment I powered it up. I doubt I'll ever own another Dell.
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I had an 8 year old Dell that was pretty darn reliable. I had to replace the harddrive once. Then about 3 months ago the picture went out. I thought it had died. So I gave it to my son. He did a little work on it and found that the video card had gone bad and now he is using it.
The thing is when I went to upgrade my Dell for gaming it was going to cost me as much to build a new one.
I have built 3 machines in the last 9 months. All run flawlessly inspite of my overclocking and my errors.
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Condor: my friend who uses Dell all the time told me it's better if you buy your machine through the Dell Small Business section of the website rather than the Home division. He said the small business tech support is way better. The machine I have for my wife has next-business-day onsite warranty, so once I call in their tech support they'll have to have a guy onsite the next day to fix it. My friend has this happen somewhat often (he has a lot of clients using a lot of Dell machines so they do get bad drives and cpus and whatnot) and he just calls up and tells them he needs a new hard drive or whatever and they show up and put it in. He never has problems getting the machines fixed in a timely manner.
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I buy a lot of computers from Dell (and others) for clients, and I also build a lot of PCs too. All of my personal computers (except the notebook, which is a Lenovo) are handbuilt by myself, and have been since the mid 90's.
About pricing:
If your price point is about $600 or less, and especially if you need a new monitor, then a Dell is pretty much always cheaper option. This is especially true if you aren't too fussy about specific components or the specs of the monitor. If you wait for the deal-de-jour, then shipping can be had for free too.
If your price point is between $650 and about $1100, then it is definitely cheaper to build it yourself, provided the time spent building it is "free to you." I just built up a new system for myself that ran about $800 in parts, where an equivalent system from Dell priced out at $1200. The one I built up has the best-of-breed for every component type (Corsair memory, Seagate Hard Drive, LG Blu-Ray Burner, Silverstone Case, Asus motherboard, etc.) and comes in a form factor I prefer (an utterly silent shoebox-style SFF case), whereas the Dal uses whatever components they got deals on for this fiscal quarter in a standard mini-tower. If you have to pay a consultant to build it, however, the pricing starts to fall in line with what Dell offers.
If your price point is greater than $1200 or so, then it is always cheaper to build yourself, or even have a computer guy build it and you pay him for his time. Sometimes the cost difference is two or three times.
About Warranties from Dell:
Unless you have the warranty where a Dell technician physically drives over to your house and fixes/replaces bad components on the spot (and these aren't cheap), then it is generally still up to you to diagnose the problem (phone support is very hit-or-miss here), and then turn the screwdriver yourself to replace the bad component when the replacement arrives. Lather-rinse-and-repeat if the problem is complex and involves multiple components.
In the end, my clients find it less aggravating to have me come over, diagnose the problem, come back with a replacement part from Newegg or Fry's, fix it, and then pay me my hourly rate, along with the cost of the new part. Don't forget that having a receptionist wait on the phone with dell and try to diagnose it, and then waiting for the replacement part to get shipped costs the company money in lost time and productivity. It's cheaper to get me to do it outside of the warranty overall.
So, if your time is free to you, and you don't get aggravated easily, then the Dell warranty is perfectly fine, I guess, but you'll still be doing most of the work to fix it. You might as well built it yourself since you're responsible for fixing the dell anyways...
My two cents,
Llama
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Builing a PC is a lot easier than it was say 10 years ago. A lot of setups are auto configured and pretty easy.
I both agree and disagree. Though there are alot more "wizards", and autoconfiguration that is available today to make it easier, I find that hardware and drivers have MUCH looser quality control. It seems far more difficult to find hardware/ driver/ OS configurations that are compatible and do not have so many bugs that they are unstable.
Overall, in theory it is easier to build a computer today than any time in the past, but in reality, quality problems in both hardware and software make getting it going and keeping it working right, much more difficult.
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hardest part is going to all those tech review and forum sites and researching what you want to get based on your budget.