Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: redman555 on August 11, 2008, 06:49:12 PM
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Ok, so about to be on my fifth year flying... still cant fly 109s... now.. i can turn wit ppl, and get on there six, but cant kill anything with the one 20mm, i always miss lol, does anyone have any tips/advice that could help? also, is there a certain gunsight that may make it easier to hit someone with the one 20mm?
-BigBOBCH
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I'm not sure what you're used to flying but I found pulling my convergence in by about 30% helped me out.
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well, planes i normally fly include tempest,P-47(all versions),FM-2 mainly, i really want 2 learn to fly 109
-BigBOBCH
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1. Tracers make you lazy
2. Practice on the drones from different angles. (no action in MA I practice timing against the drones)
3. Shoot under 100, extend range as you improve.
4. Gunsights, i like the Yak historical sight at low vis same for 109 historical sight.
5. Seperate the triggers between MG and Hub, use the MG to make em brake then nail the now larger target with the hub.
6. If majority of time use only the hub cannon hit/miss % is a nice indicator to gauge improvement.
7. Stick with it, 109s are fantastic rides and the K4 is a monster and one of the best in the game.
Good Luck.
<S>...-Gixer
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Use the 109K4 and 109G14's 30mm tater? :aok
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Take aiming and ranging shots with the MG's, if they hit, pull your nose up a wee bit, so that the enemy plane is just under the crosshairs, then, fire away those 20mm. For me, effective range is somewhere around D400-350. Hope you have a great time with the 109. :aok
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I know the single 20mm would seem hard to kill with, but it turns out not to be that bad. One of the reasons, I'm convinced, is that it's mounted on the centerline, so it's a lot easier to get the hits where you want them, in the critical areas. It's a lot easier to kill with the single 20mm in the nose of the 109-F4 than, say, one 20mm in the wing of a Spitfire (if the other was shot out, and not including the effect of the other machine guns).
Also, you should practice ammo conservation. I think the problem is your familiar rides all have lots of .50 caliber machine guns with tons of ammo, and you can get away just spraying it out there and walking them in. With the single 20mm in the F4, or the single 30mm in the G14 or K4, you can't get away with this. You've got to aim more carefully and fire very short bursts of 1-3 rounds each. You can't really walk them in. It's a different mindset. I have had the opposite problem in the past, where I was so used to firing very short bursts with the K4 that I'd get in a Pony or Hellcat and fire very short machine gun bursts and not kill the enemy even with a good hit.
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Get in Real close before you shoot.
Doesnt get any more simple and straight forward than that.
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This is a thread Agent360 started regarding aiming the 30mm cannons on the K4... I know you're looking for 20mm help, but I think once you see the effects of a tater, you might just be hooked :D
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html)
Really, if you're looking for help in the 109s, run a search for posts by Creton, Agent360, 2Bighorn, Widewing, etc.
FWIW, when I primarily flew the 109s (years ago), I'd try to lead to the point where I'd miss everything but the tailfeathers. Knocking off those vertical stabilizers turns the 20mms into a one ping kill.
("Try" being the key word ;) )
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It's better if you don't switch between nose mounted and wing mounted gun platforms. Pick one and stick with it otherwise it confuses your brain's natural aiming computer...Most of the best shootists I know in the game mainly stay with one or the other. So, if you want to get good with the 109 stop flying planes with wing guns while you're mastering nose gunnery.
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With my G2 (20mm), I have the 20mm cannon's convergence set out 50 yards further then the mg's. I do this becuase when I'm pulling moderate G's for a shot, I want the vert. component of the convergence to to lob the 20mm's in front of the mg's, becuase if you pull g's, the inertia of the 20mm's will cause them to not shoot as 'high' as the mg's, which weigh less.
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Try to hold your fire until 400yrds or less with the 20mm, if you have the 2 .50cals open fire with them too. Under that range they have similar enough ballistics to hit enemy planes. I've not much experience with the 30mm however. My own preference for tracers is to have them on.
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109k4 ownage clips
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/reversek4.ahf
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/dudtaters.ahf
dont thank me, fear me :D
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109s are nice to fly, specially the g2 and f model.
Use trim to compensate for bad compression behaviour
Dont turn too much with the g or k series or you will find yourself floating down in silk with a con on your 6.
109 has one big flaw in AH compared with RL - flaps could be extended atmuch higher speed than
in AH.
below is a link for flaps usage on the 109e
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9200/109flapdeployspeedsud3.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9200/109flapdeployspeedsud3.jpg)
translates to :
"Zulässige Geschwindigkeit in Abhängigkeit vom Klappenausschlag" für die Me 109E:*
10° up to 780 km/h
20° up to 470 km/h
30° up to 350 km/h
40° up to 290 km/h
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bat ya dweeb. :)
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Get close point at plane shoot, ownage.
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bat ya dweeb. :)
guilty as charged!
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I'm not sure what you're used to flying but I found pulling my convergence in by about 30% helped me out.
Might help some, but I have mine set @ 350ft the same as I set any other plane with the exception of the B25H and that's out like 600ft I think.
To the original poster, I checked your score to see which 109 you are flying. Looks like the G14 first off that is probably the best 109 to learn in because it turns well but it doesn't shoot 20mm's it shoot's 30mm's. (at least I'm almost certian it does)
I was the same way with 109's oddly enough the first time I ever flew K4 was in the "Der Grosse Schlag" scenario. I ended up killing three P51's and two of them were on the deck in a 2 vs 1 fight. I actually have the film online so I'll post it.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/117694.html
I laugh at that film now, because I was making all kinds of dumb shots that I'd never do now. I also never HO in the plane but that was my first time in it and both the P51's tried to HO me on a few different passes, so I took the opportunity to return the favor once it presented it's self. :rofl
After this I tried to fly the 109 and couldn't hit anything, so call the film above beginners luck if you will. I can't really say what did it for me, but I couldn't kill anything in the 109's for the longest amount of time then one night out of the blue it just kinda came from me. It literally came to me in one sortie, I don't really know what happened but I went from not being able to hit a thing to being able to make kills.
One thing I will say is you need to kill on the snap shots as much as possible. It seems odd but direct six shots in tatter planes are some of the hardest shots to make, simply because you don't have the ammo to "spray and pray" like 90% of the AH plane set, and a dead six profile is kinda small and can be very difficult to hit with a single shot aircraft. It seems odd to say that, because any other aircraft a direct 6 shot is the easiest to make but in 109 tatter plane's its the exact opposite.
I fly the K4 about 90% of the time now and one thing that always annoys me is when people call the K4 a uber plane. That plane is soo far from uber the only advantage it has is a awesome climb rate because it's motor is a powerhouse. Other than the motor it takes a lot of practice and skill to fly because it fly's like a brick. There is no other plane in the game that I have to work the controls so much during a fight. In short flying 109's is all about constant throttle control and flaps. It's not so much about your aim but working to set up the shot.
I'll post a few films that might help you learn how to set up shots..
First one is kinda slow at the start but has some good 1 shot kills in it before I ended up getting gang banged. I did however make them work for my kill, so this film also shows what a K4 can do on the deck..
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/gangtards.ahf
This second film is pretty slow paced and not how I like to fly, in short it's easy mode. It's actually the sortie after the one above but I stuck to the typical 109 BnZ picktard type kills because I got gang banged the sortie above. This is how 90% of the players in the MA fly 109's and honestly I'm not a fan of this kind of flying but I did have some good shots in here that might help you learn how to set up kills.
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/6kills.ahf
This is more of the flying I like to do..on the deck in the watermelon especially in these films you see most of my kills don't come from taking direct six shots like you would in any other plane. I'd say 80% of my kills in a K4 are snapshot kills.
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/k4-vs-5.ahf
This is my favorite kind of fight in a 109 just because it's totally opposite of how most people in 109's fly. There is nothing I like better than upping at a base getting attacked by a CV and fighting on the deck under 3k. Yea have to stay under 3k to avoid puffy and IMO that's where the K4 really shines because it has lots of motor for low alt fighting.
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/6kills-with-agent.ahf
This one is another on the deck at a CV fight.. kinda boring the first 8 mins or so.. Was just dealing with a bunch of land grabbers and a typical MA pick tard so no real good fights just a lot of defensive flying. Just something to show those that think K4's can't turn.
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/2-k4sorties-cv-battle.ahf
Here is a rare film of me in a G14.. I don't fly it much because it turns too good and screws me up when I go back to the K4. (I did nice pick job on Betty in this one :lol)
http://www.wargamerx.com/k4/G14.ahf
Anyway if you do stay in the 109's don't listen to people that say they can't turn. Once you get your aim down, get it on the deck and in the weeds because that's where the real fun is. Most of the guys that only fly them to BnZ just don't have a clue as to what the planes can really do. In short the K4 is like flying a brick, yea have to use the throttle and flaps and smack it around quite a bit. They aren't a wussy plane you gotta treat them rough like a red headed step child and beat them around a bit.
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G14 has 20mm too, I fly g14 99 percent of the time, it is a beast in good hands
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great stuff strafing.
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G14 has 20mm too, I fly g14 99 percent of the time, it is a beast in good hands
Ahh does it? I almost never fly it, I've become quite the K4 junkie, but for what ever reason I thought the G14 had the 30mm as well but I guess not.
great stuff strafing.
Thanks :salute
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Ahh does it? I almost never fly it, I've become quite the K4 junkie, but for what ever reason I thought the G14 had the 30mm as well but I guess not.
G-14 gives you a lot of options:
30mm or 20mm in nose and additional 20mm gunpods if desired.
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G-14 gives you a lot of options:
30mm or 20mm in nose and additional 20mm gunpods if desired.
Ahh ok, then I wasn't imagining things.. :O
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Ahh ok, then I wasn't imagining things.. :O
ummm.. maybe we both did? :noid
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Wait until 100-200 yards, then open fire as they go pass your gun sight. Sounds pretty simple to me.
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Get close, get closer, get even closer............ Shoot :aok
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At the ranges you should be firing at, <400 yards, the ballistics of 20mm and mg's are similar enough to fire at the same time.
Learn in the F-4 or G-2, then move up. I would avoid the 30mm loadout until you're very comfortable with the 109's flight characteristics; shooting taters accurately requires the quiet mind of a zen master. :aok
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Agent told me not to pull lead on the K4, I took that advice to heart and only use it as snapshot. In a tnb situation where I'm doing 120 knts scissoring, them snapshot are gold. Most of my K4 kills are snapshot. K4 is a wonderful plane, it's a lil bit tuff to handle at first but once you get it down, it's just a beautiful bird. Unlike most people I fire my 13mm and 30mm at the same time. Since most of my shooting I'll fire at 100-200 yards range, the balistic doesn't matter that much.
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Might help some, but I have mine set @ 350ft the same as I set any other plane with the exception of the B25H and that's out like 600ft I think.
I have pretty much all the British, American and German guns set at 650 yards and he Russian and Japanese guns set to 400. The exception is the hub mounted 20mm in the 109's, which I also set to 400. Even the German 30's I set to 650 (including the K4 hub mount) because I'm used to hitting with them at that setting.
No matter what I'm flying I usually hold fire until I'm inside 400.
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I'm used to fire under 200 yards in any plane and any rounds. You just don't need to lead that much at that range. I can hit just about any thing using any kind of rounds at 100-200 yards. Only problem is I can't hit anything above 400 yards. I think my aiming is trained to take leadshot at 200. I've try flying 262 and firing at afk goonies 400 yards out and I'd miss. I think it's because I'm not use to leading at them range.
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Ok, so about to be on my fifth year flying... still cant fly 109s... now.. i can turn wit ppl, and get on there six, but cant kill anything with the one 20mm, i always miss lol, does anyone have any tips/advice that could help? also, is there a certain gunsight that may make it easier to hit someone with the one 20mm?
-BigBOBCH
There are two extremes in the 109 plane set. The F-4 and the K-4. Think of everything in between as a mixture of the two.
The F-4 is one of the best pure furballers in the game. The K-4 is one of the best pure vert fighters in the game.
Basic rules:
109F-4
The reason I love this AC is the same reason that 38 sticks love their's. What it cant out turn, it can out run (or out climb) and what it cant out run (or out climb) it can out turn. The threshold is just lower on a purely speed basis.
The weapons package leaves something to be desired in the punch category, but the single 20mm 151 is more than enough to dispatch an EAC within the envelop you should be flying. I love the F-4 because it can wipe the floor with most spits in sustained turn fights. 16's are like fresh meat if they stick around to fight.
The sustained turn rate is not excellent, per say, but the stall speed is lower than comparable AC. As a result, they have a very difficult time getting behind you. When you do stall, the break away is gentle, giving you a significant advantage over other AC flopping all over themselves to stay out of the drink.
Since 95% of MA fights end up as a sustained turn contests, the airplane always surprises. And, since 95% of MA sticks are not exemplary, the use of flaps and elevator trim will hasten the conclusion of any turn fight.
Conservation of E is important since acceleration is not up to par with the 44+ set, but knife fighting with the F-4 against La7's, 16's or Niki's is child's play. In such a fight, the weapons package is more than enough because youre going to be shooting from between 150 and 300 yards at a full head-down view of an AC yanking on the stick to pull lead. Further out, the ballistics get tricky because the 7.92mm and the 20mm 151 dont play nice together, but since BnZ isnt really an option in this AC, you wont be throwing rounds from 600 out at 400 MPH, anyway.
If youre new to the series, get the hang of this one, first.
109K-4
Completely different AC in several ways. Its heavy (by 109 standards), the weapons package is very difficult to grow accustomed to and the engine torque is both its greatest strength and weakness.
While the initial turn is good, the sustained turn rate in the K-4, unlike the F-4, is abysmal. By contrast, however, what the F-4 lacks; comparable rate of climb, speed, acceleration, etc, is made up for in spades.
If you want to go to the moon, the K-4 is your ride. The thing climbs like a raped ape.
However, with such a powerful engine in such a light airframe, the AC wants to twist, constantly. It torques to the left and, while this makes low speed maneuvering and prop hanging difficult, it can also work wonderfully well to A. bring your guns around to the left for a solution at very low airspeed and B. keep you aloft in the opposing direction.
You should always be fighting in the vertical - not zooming, mind you - but forcing an EAC to rely on engine power to pull them up.
In that sort of situation, with an EAC behind you, both slow and close (200-400 yards), 109 dictating with a creeping, left hand upwards spiral climb, the AC comes into its own and all of the quirks that send people screaming back to Spit's and La7's come out to shine.
First, there is a strong probability that the EAC, without significant airspeed will not be able to bring his guns up to you. He will keep trying because, technically speaking, he is still behind you. Once airspeed gets dangerously low and both planes are starting to shudder, the engine torque comes into play for the first time.
When you start to see it (his nose will juuuust start to drop), you flip your climb over to the right as best you can against the engine torque and make sure flaps are full out. This is contrary to what the plane wants to do in all aspects, but thats ok at this point because its actually going to keep you aloft for a few more seconds - which is the key while he overloads his control surfaces.
You've forced him to get just a little bit nearer to directly beneath you, and he's still trying to bring his guns up in vein. You could probably drop a bowling ball on him (more on that later) at this point.
When he starts to lose it, your engine - in this position keeping you aloft - will start to reverse your right stick inputs ever so slowly.
Once he is near directly beneath you and, at this point, helpless, engine torque comes into play for the second time. Jam the controls to the left, helping the engine pull the entire aircraft around and below, and you will literally twist/fall straight down on him with your tater gun pointed at his cockpit.
Pull trigger.
Now, you might actually be better off opening your cockpit and throwing a bowling ball because the ballistics would be better than the 30mm, but all the same, the key is setting up the shots you cant miss.
Bit of a ramble... but I hope it at least comes close to helping you visualize the ideal situation.
Its a strange bird.
Im by no means an expert, but would be glad to spend some time in the DA with you.
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I have set my conv 200 and fire all guns same time in 109. Mostly i shoot d50-150 against fiters, 150-300 against buffs. It may take some time to get used 109`s. 1st you have to learn "turnfight" vertical :) and instead pulling lead, use ailerons to roll and cut angles for firingposition. I mostly try to shoot turning target, it is lot bigger shape than 6 position.
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About that direct 6 oclock thing. OMG yes that's true, the 6 oclock shots are the worst with the 30mm. I've been 200 yards behind a stir-stirring butthead and with direct 6 oclock shots blown all 65 cannon rounds (1-3 at a time) without hitting him. Mucho aggravating. I'd much rather get the shot on him with some deflection and looking at the top-down profile. Speaking of which, that's one thing that rocks with the Zeke, ie: you get people into a turn-fight and get most of your kills shooting into their town-down profile where the wings and tailfeathers make huge targets and are easy to hit.
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I have pretty much all the British, American and German guns set at 650 yards and he Russian and Japanese guns set to 400. Even the German 30's I set to 650 (including the K4 hub mount) because I'm used to hitting with them at that setting.
No matter what I'm flying I usually hold fire until I'm inside 400.
why set them to 650 when you hold fire to 400? You are reducing your own lethality
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When they start stirring I just get in closer.
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Agent told me not to pull lead on the K4, I took that advice to heart and only use it as snapshot.
Understandable but imho pulling lead and making extreme single shots is why I like the 37mm and most rewarding part of it. Just a matter of practicing the timing over and over again. Close range snapshots in scissors are a gimme especially with the 30mm you can give them a short burst, where as the 37mm you have to time a single shot.
<S>...-Gixer
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Understandable but imho pulling lead and making extreme single shots is why I like the 37mm and most rewarding part of it. Just a matter of practicing the timing over and over again. Close range snapshots in scissors are a gimme especially with the 30mm you can give them a short burst, where as the 37mm you have to time a single shot.
<S>...-Gixer
But I fly k4 once in a blue moon =) no time to practice them tater shots.
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Here's my 2 cents on the Bf109.
The 109 is one of the toughest planes to fight in. Nearly everything is faster, has better guns or turns better. Ya the 109 can climb fast, but not faster than a cannon shell. So if your Spit gets spanked by a 109 he's probably one of the most experienced pilots in the game. Run away, very quickly.
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It is "possible" to pull lead shots in the K4 but it requires a blind under the nose shot. Very difficult to time and if you are really hauling it around it is almost impossible to get enough lead to compensate for the g load on the taters. If you are at "0" distance you can pull it off. But this kind of shot is just not really something to do unless you are very good at shooting 30mm's
I have said before that "flying style" is the most important thing in killing with the K4. Think of like you are flying a GUN not a plane. You dont shoot a 12 gauge slug the same way you shoot a 8mm mauser.
You must force the target into crossing your guns. And for this you have to fly almost defensivly. Its a game of cat and mouse.
The lead turn followed by a verticle reversal is the way to go. Strait six tail chases are the worst.
Agent360
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The lead turn followed by a verticle reversal is the way to go. Strait six tail chases are the worst.
I second this. If you're behind somebody and you're in the K-4, turn with them a bit just to bait, and then do a vertical reversal. It works almost every time for me. The key to successfully flying the K-4, or really any 109, is really knowing how to use it in the vertical. Master the 'vert, and you'll be set... For the most part.
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I second this. If you're behind somebody and you're in the K-4, turn with them a bit just to bait, and then do a vertical reversal. It works almost every time for me. The key to successfully flying the K-4, or really any 109, is really knowing how to use it in the vertical. Master the 'vert, and you'll be set... For the most part.
A word of caution about vertical reversals: be very careful doing them against a competent F4U pilot. The F4U can bleed a lot of E maneuvering to avoid your shot, but then pull vertical for a snap shot while hanging from the prop. Against this defense it is better to enter a simple zoom climb after missing a shot with a lead turn; you'll often see the F4U reversing with the hope that you went for a high yo-yo, but if you don't burn your E by pulling G's the F4U will be 800 yards back and fall away. Not even SpitfireXVIs can do this same maneuver so effectively.