Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: abc123 on August 11, 2008, 11:38:22 PM
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Hi guys, I've been reading a few books, and am wondering if I am understanding some of the info in the right way. Did any early war 109's incorporate a 30mm (F4 and G2 to be precise)? Was this a field mod, or a different model/block (if 109's had blocks) then the one we have in game?
Here's the quote that sparked my interest.
From... Fighter: The World's Finest Combat Aircraft - 1914 To The Present Day
"The Bf 109F, which first flew in late 1940, had a revised nose shape and other refinements, including a DB 601E rated at 1,350 hp (1,007 kW). The "Freidrich" was regarded as the best variant to fly and was mainly used in the Mediterranean and North Africa from 1941. The engine mounted 1.18-in (30mm) cannon was fitted to all Fs, and it or a 0.79-in (20mm) model armed subseqent 109's alongside cowl machinge guns. The cannon mounted within the wings was deleted."
Thanks.
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"The Bf 109F, which first flew in late 1940, had a revised nose shape and other refinements, including a DB 601E rated at 1,350 hp (1,007 kW). The "Freidrich" was regarded as the best variant to fly and was mainly used in the Mediterranean and North Africa from 1941. The engine mounted 1.18-in (30mm) cannon was fitted to all Fs, and it or a 0.79-in (20mm) model armed subseqent 109's alongside cowl machinge guns. The cannon mounted within the wings was deleted."
Plain wrong. No F was ever equipped with a 30mm cannon. Actually the 30mm MK 108 was desinged 1940/42 and was introduced operationally in 1943
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That's what I figured, but just wanted to double check, as it peaked my interest. ;)
By the way, what was the first model to start fielding the 30mm?
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That's what I figured, but just wanted to double check, as it peaked my interest. ;)
By the way, what was the first model to start fielding the 30mm?
As far as I know, first model was the G-6/U4 variant, but as I'm no 109 expert, let's wait for better informed posters ;)
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As far as I know, first model was the G-6/U4 variant, but as I'm no 109 expert, let's wait for better informed posters ;)
Yes, it was the G-6/U4. AFAIR it appeared in late 1943, probably September/October. The MK 108 may have been used in the G-5 as well (Would then be a G-5/U4) and was later also used in the G-14/U4 and G-10/U4. It was standard equipment in the Bf 109K.
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It should be noted initially that not too many G-6s had the MK108 fitted. Even in 1944 with some ~7800 G-6s built only ~1500 had the 30mm.
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One of Galland's chief complaints about the "F" was that it was undergunned. He mounted a larger gun on his personal aircraft (along with a cigar lighter). 30mm? Don't think there was ever a production 30mm gunned "F" tho.
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One of Galland's chief complaints about the "F" was that it was undergunned. He mounted a larger gun on his personal aircraft (along with a cigar lighter). 30mm? Don't think there was ever a production 30mm gunned "F" tho.
No 30mm, the MK108 wasn't even produced back then. He had to stick to the good old MG FF 20mm cannon.
The only 30mm somwhat available back then was the giant MK 101, which, already considered obsolete, was only fitted to a few Do 24 seaplanes and later as a external gun option on the HS 129 tank-buster.
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It should be noted initially that not too many G-6s had the MK108 fitted. Even in 1944 with some ~7800 G-6s built only ~1500 had the 30mm.
Yup, only 1500. :lol
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I've got a Tarnewitz report on G-6/U4 gun tests dated July 1943. There were 30 G-6/U4s built that time. No information when these were used operationally first time but probably not much later.
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If memory serves the 109F was equipped with either a 20mm or a 15mm nose cannon. Along with the two 7.7mm guns in the nose. Many of the aces liked the model because it was it offered an improvement in performance over the previous models. However many felt that it did not have enough firepower for the average pilot to have much success.
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I've got a Tarnewitz report on G-6/U4 gun tests dated July 1943. There were 30 G-6/U4s built that time. No information when these were used operationally first time but probably not much later.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/109G6U4R6.jpg)
Bf.109G6/U4/R6 flown by Olt. Heinz Knoke in late summer '43. :aok
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(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/109G6U4R6.jpg)
Bf.109G6/U4/R6 flown by Olt. Heinz Knoke in late summer '43. :aok
This aircraft may be a G-6/U4 with Rüstsatz 6 cannon pack but not a G-6/U4/R6
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Ok... Bf.109/U4 R6? Sans '/'? I'm not sure of the proper notation for this.
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Ok... Bf.109/U4 R6? Sans '/'? I'm not sure of the proper notation for this.
G-6/U4 with R6 - the Rüstsatz did not change the aircraft designation, a G-6/U4/R6 would be an all-weather version of the G-6/U4 with additional navigation aid/blind flying equipment.
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The only 30mm somwhat available back then was the giant MK 101, which, already considered obsolete, was only fitted to a few Do 24 seaplanes and later as a external gun option on the HS 129 tank-buster.
I'm not aware of any Do 24 use (although I always welcome enlightenment) but the MK 101 (or MG 101 as it was known at that time) was fitted in a belly pod to the Bf 110C-6 used in small numbers in the Battle of France, the Battle of Britain and IIRC in North Africa. One was shot down over England in the BoB and I've read the RAF report on the wreck, which described the gun and its ammo supply.
A pair of MK 101 were also fitted in a chin turret to several He 177, apparently with the intention of engaging US bombers being ferried over the Atlantic, but this never happened.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk)