Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Agent360 on August 15, 2008, 07:00:39 PM
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I am reading the book "Samurai". It is the life story of the famous ace Saburo Sakai. In the begining chapters he mentions a maneuver called the "falling leaf". It is something he and his fellow pilots practiced quite often along with all the other typical aerial maneuvers.
I did a quick google search for this and found some conflicting examples and descriptions of this maneuver.
I was wondering if any of you history buffs have ever heard of this move and if so are there any historically accurate accounts/instructions on how to perform it.
Agent360
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http://www.youtube.com/v/ZOPsQn2Mksg
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I love the part where he says "As soon as we decreases angle of attack, we came out of Wally World" :lol :aok
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Still at PG... I want to see green and red on that windshield... :devil
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Yes I found that video on my search but I don't think that is the maneuver performed by Saburo Sakai.
I saw another video with an RC sim that was totally different. And some text references to other "ways" of doing it.
However the video could be it. I can see how you could use the maneuver to create an overshoot while flying strait as opposed to a scissor type move.
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Yes I found that video on my search but I don't think that is the maneuver performed by Saburo Sakai.
I saw another video with an RC sim that was totally different. And some text references to other "ways" of doing it.
However the video could be it. I can see how you could use the maneuver to create an overshoot while flying strait as opposed to a scissor type move.
it's definitly not the maneuver you described. it actually looks to me like the instructor pilot is trying to put fear of the stall in the other guy.
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The falling leaf will
train the proper response of raising the wing with rudder while keeping the
ailerons neutral.
the term has been around since ww1 all the info i found so far is pretty congruent as to method
<S>
be interesting to see other responses sounds kind of cool almost "ZEN" like
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just about to read it for the second time whilst at work this weekend.
Great book, one of the best IMO.
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Bob Hoover performed it alot in demonstrations. I think its used to describe a variety of manuevers regardless of its true meaning. In AH way back when I was flying the Ki-61 alot I could put the Ki-61 in a kind of "flutter" stall where it was more or less decending vertically and "fluttering" like a leaf falling....airspeeed was about 80 IAS and stall horn was on...BUT the stall was completely recoverable in a very short time frame and stable...the key was bleeding the speed down getting the flaps out and then rotating dead level at very close to full stall and getting the nose up with engine at idle....in effect your flaring like your landing but at altitude...if you do it right the plane falls almost straight down and can almost tail slide at times...but your not in a spin....just a very sharp almost straight down nose high decent.
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LOL the falling leaf, not sure if it's the same maneuver but it happens A LOT when I'm in a spitfire. It's just a nasty stall that happens when you have flaps down, low speed and pull too much AOA and add a little rudder it falls like a leaf and is damn near impossible to get out of.
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LOL the falling leaf, not sure if it's the same maneuver but it happens A LOT when I'm in a spitfire. It's just a nasty stall that happens when you have flaps down, low speed and pull too much AOA and add a little rudder it falls like a leaf and is damn near impossible to get out of.
yea i do it a lot too especialy in the spit16 i have to pull flaps up full oposite rudder alieron forward on stick and fluctuate the throttle to get out of em, really i just jerk teh stick aruond and hope it works cause its hard to get out of that when your tail down, i may have 50% sucess rate lol
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Would it maybe be a corkscrew dive? Quite a few leafs tend to spin down in a corkscrew as they float to the ground. Could he not just be in a corkscrew dive to keep control of the aircraft speed? I do this type of move in the K4 quite often now, it lets me bleed off speed at a controlled rate with my rudder and I can end up on a lower cons six at a manageable speed to take that all important tatter shot.
It also has the affect of not giving away your true angle of attack, because you aren't diving right in on the con. I dunno if this dive has a name, it's just something I picked up on my own and seems to work but seems like "falling Leaf" would be an appropriate name for it.
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LOL the falling leaf, not sure if it's the same maneuver but it happens A LOT when I'm in a spitfire. It's just a nasty stall that happens when you have flaps down, low speed and pull too much AOA and add a little rudder it falls like a leaf and is damn near impossible to get out of.
I'm positive that is actually a flat spin.
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Would it maybe be a corkscrew dive? Quite a few leafs tend to spin down in a corkscrew as they float to the ground. Could he not just be in a corkscrew dive to keep control of the aircraft speed? I do this type of move in the K4 quite often now, it lets me bleed off speed at a controlled rate with my rudder and I can end up on a lower cons six at a manageable speed to take that all important tatter shot.
It also has the affect of not giving away your true angle of attack, because you aren't diving right in on the con. I dunno if this dive has a name, it's just something I picked up on my own and seems to work but seems like "falling Leaf" would be an appropriate name for it.
I'm thinking it might be more of a back/forth movement, like a leaf falling or a ship in the water. Try the picture with your hand to your elbow, starting vertical. Hand up top, then curving so hand is on bottom, then repeating.
(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/134/fallingleafwd3.png)
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Whoops
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Falling Leaf. An aerobatic manœuvre of a purely spectacular variety. The aeroplane is first stalled and is then forced into a spin. As soon as the spin develops the controls are reversed so that a spin begins in the opposite direction.
The falling leaf term is also used to describe a series of alternating sideslips and again to describe the technique of 'walking or pedalling down' a stalled aircraft by picking up a dropping wing with opposite rudder and then leaving the rudder input in to drop the opposit wing, then reversing, and so on.
It's an aerobatic manoeuvre and is not generally taught to flight students. It's not required for any rating other then an aerobatic rating.
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Thanks fellas for getting some info on this for me.
Traveler, I have also found similar descriptions as you describe. However your is the closest to what I think the move is. Where did you get the info..link?
I am beggining to get a picture of how this should be performed and also for how it can be used as a combat maneuver. I believe the Japs practiced as a way to control the stall in maximum performance maneuvers. I am not sure if it was an actual overshoot maneuver or not.
Crocket describes a similar move but not the same. I do this as well but it is always to the right..mostly but sometime to the left. This is a flat induduced stall maintained by oppisite rudder and tork of the engine. Not quite the same but close.
The other move I do close to it is the side slip scissor. Pulling hard rudder and oppposite aileron while reversing these two controls back and forth. This is not stick stirring as it might sound like it. It creates a false tracking for guns and can be converted into an overshoot if done with enough speed. It also masks your real speed somewhat and gives the impression of a slower plane when you are really going much faster.
I have semi perfected what I would call a "falling leaf reverse". It works best by going up vertically. But can be done in a dive. I put the nose up to a slight climb reducing throttle to create closure of the con behind me. I begin a turn to the right with hard right rudder and holding the turn and go up about 45 degrees. Bring the con in to a possible guns solution then power off stall nose up and begin the falling leaf. I feather the throttle on and off to keep speed and stall as described using the rudder to slip back and forth. If the bait works the con usually chops throttle to atleast get a tracking shot. When he goes by he is slow and I have enough speed to catch him on the wingover he has to do or be caught hanging on the prop.
My move is not really a falling leaf because I am doing it going up. But the maneuver uses the exact same technique of rudder control of the stall.
I also did the true falling leaf against a zeek in my 109. I had him slow....real slow on my six after a hard verticle break turn. I dragged him up then chopped on the top stall turn. That made if come over the top after me and not turn to me for guns. I nose down and around to the right with power off pulling hard up to stall then started the rudder work. He was nose down on me and he just flew right by and into my guns. Boooom.
It's a dicy move for sure but works like a charm if you are close and slow. It especially works on the best turning planes. The others just blow by and to verticle.
Film coming soon.
BadDuck sent me this video a stunt pilot. The commentator calls it a falling leaf
It's starts around 8.30 min mark
http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/view.php?v=24a4d8e5
Agent360
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Thanks fellas for getting some info on this for me.
Traveler, I have also found similar descriptions as you describe. However your is the closest to what I think the move is. Where did you get the info..link?
My Dad flew P47's and P51's in WWII, He didn't like the idea that the FAA gave me a license with out me ever have to actually spin. So he taught me how to spin in an old J3 Cub and Scared the daylights out of me but taught me how to spin, left, right, rightside up and upside down, inverted, flat and fully developed. Then he borrowed a friends T6 and taught me all over again. One of the things he taught me was the falling leaf, both versions. I was 17 and thought I was hot stuff, man did he teach me a lesson. He never talked much about combat flying except that speed was life. He actually played AirWarrior a few times, when visiting he'd use my account. Even played Aces High a few times. He thought the P47D model was pretty close. He went in his sleep a few years back