Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Stogie on August 20, 2008, 10:33:57 PM
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My current computer was used to help design the pyramids so I figured I should upgrade. I average 20 FPS in the MA so wanted to improve on that.
I am a tech and have built many computers but not for a very long time and have not really kept up with the technology so I could use some help.
I plan on keeping a few parts from my existing system: IDE drives, dvd, mouse etc.
This system is 1.8 Ghz, 1GB RAM and has a Radeon 1650 512 AGP video.
I'm looking at this for a replacement: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4102233&CatId=332 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4102233&CatId=332)
This video card only has 1 review that I found but looks like it would be at least as good as what I have:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=3529983&sku=V261-2642&srkey=v261-2642 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=3529983&sku=V261-2642&srkey=v261-2642)
The motherboard dosn't have many expansion slots which is fine cause all I would be adding is my sound card so I don't use the onboard sound.
I'm just looking for some advise on this or maybe a better sugestion, money is tight but I don't want to get too cheap and miss a feature I may need or want later.
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What's your budget? And what do you use your computer for? Like 99% AH or do you do some other stuff (or would like to)?
Personally, I don't like barebones kits. I confess that I see barebone kits advertised and I think "that's a good deal." I then check it out and quick move on. A lot of the time in barebones kits you find older/entry level parts. Yes, the stuff you listed above will run AH very well. But, PSU's that come in kits are very cheap and I'm one to never gamble on cheap PSU's. You can generally price out something relatively in the same ballpark as barebones kits, but being able to pick better parts.
But let us know your budget and we can go from there.
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What operating system are you planning on using? Newegg has the Geforce 8800 GT on special for about that same price and IMO its a much better card. Otherwise looks good.
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The most obvious things I see is that with different size memory chips it will default to single channel mode, not dual channel, the motherboard only supports up to 1000 FSB speeds (1333 is the latest standard) and from what I've heard Power Up's are very unreliable power supplies.
Also, you can get an Nvidia video card for the same price that will likely kill the one you've chosen.
I posted this about a week ago and it would provide far better components:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,244173.0.html
Just eliminate the stuff you don't need. I think the pricing works out close to what you're looking at. You could back this motherboard down and still have a great system.
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The most obvious things I see is that with different size memory chips it will default to single channel mode, not dual channel, the motherboard only supports up to 1000 FSB speeds (1333 is the latest standard) and from what I've heard Power Up's are very unreliable power supplies.
Also, you can get an Nvidia video card for the same price that will likely kill the one you've chosen.
I posted this about a week ago and it would provide far better components:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,244173.0.html
Just eliminate the stuff you don't need. I think the pricing works out close to what you're looking at. You could back this motherboard down and still have a great system.
Oh yeah, good system for the bucks. I favor the E8500 or E8400 cpu though but that adds costs.
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If you are intent on an AMD processor this might be a nice alternative motherboard for you:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128014
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What's your budget? And what do you use your computer for? Like 99% AH or do you do some other stuff (or would like to)?
Personally, I don't like barebones kits. I confess that I see barebone kits advertised and I think "that's a good deal." I then check it out and quick move on. A lot of the time in barebones kits you find older/entry level parts. Yes, the stuff you listed above will run AH very well. But, PSU's that come in kits are very cheap and I'm one to never gamble on cheap PSU's. You can generally price out something relatively in the same ballpark as barebones kits, but being able to pick better parts.
But let us know your budget and we can go from there.
I'm trying to keep the cost of the parts I need below 500. Lately most of what I use this for is AH, everything else I do does not require much power, email, light Word processing, light bookeeping some web browsing and light web design running XP home and do not plan on switching to Vista.
Currently the items I plan on salvaging from the old system:
C: Drive 20 GB IDE - has Operating system and some program on it (691 MB Free)
D: Drive 120 GB IDE - has all programs and data (80 GB Free)
I really don't want to have to reload windows and lose all my info and some programs. From what I'm reading though I may not have an option there.
I have to agree with you about the BB kits, though I was looking for a easy way out forgetting the facts that you pointed out. I was concerned about not being able to run dual channel memory, having just heard about it the day before (I really need to refresh my knowledge) I called Tigerdirect and asked when researching the first system, the person there said it would run dual channel in that configuration. I had a feeling that was a incorrect statement cause I was told memory has to be identical.
I like AMD over Intel because the last system I built Intel was much more expensive for a similar system, it seems that is no longer the case.
Anyway I read your post of the components you sugested and made some alterations and this is what I'm thinking of now along with your list:
This Motherboard along with the Intel E8400 the combo deal saves me 15.00 which doesn't hurt
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337)
The only problem with that board is it only has 1 IDE header so I'm researching that a bit more.
I havn't had time to check the rest of the system, I'll do that later today.
So I think I may have CPU Motherboard and memory picked, now I need case PSU and Video solutions.
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That's (that and it's predicessor) been a very popular motherboard for a long time and is a good choice. Gigabyte seems to own the under $100 quality motherboard market. Be careful on the RAM selection though as some brands have shown compatibility issues with the Gigabyte boards. Go to the Gigabyte web-site and select a DDR2 800 memory (currently the most common and best value) from their compatable memory listings and you won't have any issues.
I dount you'll find a board with more than one IDE header. Everything is moving to SATA which is much faster. I've got two old IDE drives as storage drives on my machine and a SATA boot drive.
You will have to re-install the OS. You'll have driver and other conflicts if you don't.
The E8400 is a great chip but will be far more than you need for AH if you need to keep the price down. You can, if you're comfortable with it, overclock any of the Intel Core2Duo chips up by about half a gig on stock cooling (a gig or more with aftermarket cooling).
If you're going with NVidia for a GPU, stick with the 9600, 8800 or 9800 series. Any of these in your budget range will be more than you'll need.
BTW, here's another thread that might help you out:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241617.0.html
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I must have for once in my life with electronics gotten lucky. You all so say Re-install the OS to avoid driver conflicts; However i went from AMD Athlon 2.2GHz (single core Socket 939), 2.5GB PC-3200 RAM, NVidia GeForce 7100 to AMD Athlon 64 X2 2.3GHz (Dual, docket AM2), 2GB PC2-6400 RAM, NVidia GeForce 7900GS, and all i ever had to do was re-register XP, not any conflicts (Motherboard, CPU, GPU, RAM, PSU, DVD all were replaced). Ether i did something right, or i am lucky :D
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GIGABYTE GZ-X5BPD-500 Black SECC Steel / ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811233039
$32.99
Bought this case for my parents rebuild. Was impressed with it for the price.
GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Free 2GB USB flash drive w/ purchase, while supplies last
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337
$84.99
One of the top sellers on Newegg.
***Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
$169.99
***See next post.
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
$43.99
5 Eggs on 2200 reviews. Lifetime warranty. I use this brand.
Thermaltake Purepower W0100RU 500W ATX 12V 2.0 Power Supply 115/ 230 V UL, CUL, TUV, FCC, and CB certification - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052
$69.99 - $25 Rebate = $44.99
SAPPHIRE 100226L Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715
$94.99 - $15 Rebate = $79.99
Tomshardware.com Best video card for $100. At $130 is the 9600GT
TOTAL AFTER REBATES (NO SHIPPING)
$456.94
+ S/H (Guess?) $50
$506.94
Price before rebates:
$496.94
+ S/H (Guess?) $50
$546.94
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Or save $50 (covers the gost of shipping and would keep it at $500).
Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 Wolfdale 2.53GHz 3MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115052
$120
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I wouldn't bother trying to save your 20gb drive. Not really worth it. You could build your new machine first and then copy everything you want to save off the old machine over the network, or you could build the new machine and hook up the old drive, copy it off into a directory on your new 500gb or whatever drive, and then remove the old drive and put it on a shelf somewhere. The 120 might be worth saving, it's up to you.
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Actually BaldEagl, if you are going to cu corners, it is better to cut the video card side. The game is more CPU dependent than video card dependent. A faster CPU can make up for a slower video card, but the vice-versa is not true at all.
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I seem to have come up with a pretty good system thanks to the help everyone here has given. I'm semi stuck on the video card. The one Fulmar recommended, SAPPHIRE 100226L Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card or a Geforce 9600 GT.
In the past it was sort of a given that ATI worked best with AMD and NVidia worked best with Intel. Not sure if that is the case anymore, does anyone know about this? (could have been a myth).
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I have an AMD CPU and NVidia GPU and they work great together. Never tried ATI with it but would be hard to work much better than this.
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In the past it was sort of a given that ATI worked best with AMD and NVidia worked best with Intel. Not sure if that is the case anymore, does anyone know about this? (could have been a myth).
Maybe in the past, but it hasn't mattered for a while. ATI or Nvidia is going to design a card that is going to work on the best on either platform. Neither would gamble on promoting performance on one CPU over the other, they're both optimized as best as possible.
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I have this system figured out. Thank you everyone for all your help, I'm amazed at how much I have fallen behind with the technology after working with computers for over 30 years. I did learn alot going through ordeal. Thanks again
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According to this article on the 9600GT (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-9600-gt,1780.html) the 3850 does an excellent job of holding it's own against the 9600GT. Some games the difference is only 1-2 FPS (depending on resolution and settings). Either card will do justice in AH hands down.
I've had more luck with drivers on Nvidia's side over the years than ATI, but that's my opinion and you can call me an Nvidia fanboy. Like I said, both cards will work flawlessly for you
Now if you have $10-$20 to play with in your budget, I wouldn't hold yourself to that exact 'brand' of video card. Sapphire offers a 2 year warranty and Chaintech offers 13 months. I recommend cards that offer lifetime warranties. Off the top of my head, I know EVGA and BFG do, PNY maybe? IMO it's worth it. I've dealt with BFG a few times before - great tech support. My dying ti4600 was replaced by a 5900XT, free.
BFG Tech BFGE96512GTOCE GeForce 9600 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail - Overclocked card.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143130
$119.99 - $30 Rebate = $89.99
So after rebate, this Nvidia card is $10 more and has a lifetime warranty.
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I have this system figured out. Thank you everyone for all your help, I'm amazed at how much I have fallen behind with the technology after working with computers for over 30 years. I did learn alot going through ordeal. Thanks again
Lets see what you're going with.
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Lets see what you're going with.
Its gonna cost me slightly more than I budgeted but that is cause I needed to get a DVD. Here is what I'm gonna order:
Case
COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel , SECC Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068)
PSU
Thermaltake Purepower W0100RU 500W ATX 12V 2.0 Power Supply 115/ 230 V
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052)
Motherboard
GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337)
Processor
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037)
RAM
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098)
Video
SAPPHIRE 100226L Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715)
DVD
LITE-ON Black 20X DVD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106263 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106263)
I know I should get a 250 GB sata drive for 60 bucks but I can always get that later. In case I decide to do that now which will make transfering easier from my old drives I figure this one will do fine.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148262&Tpk=n82e16822148262 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148262&Tpk=n82e16822148262)
Total with shipping and not the Hard drive is $550. I think it's a great deal!
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Nice build for the price. It will be a big improvement for you. Let us know how it works once you get it done.
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I seem to have come up with a pretty good system thanks to the help everyone here has given. I'm semi stuck on the video card. The one Fulmar recommended, SAPPHIRE 100226L Radeon HD 3850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card or a Geforce 9600 GT.
In the past it was sort of a given that ATI worked best with AMD and NVidia worked best with Intel. Not sure if that is the case anymore, does anyone know about this? (could have been a myth).
If memory serves correct. and someone correct me if Im wrong. The ATI card tends to run on the hot side.
For myself on my current build I am leaning to an NVidia card for primarily that reason.
I dont want to have to add any more fans then I have to.
More fans usually means more noise.
And I HATE a machine that sounds like a shop vac
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The 2900HD hogs power and runs hot, the 3850 is more power efficient and runs cooler.
If I was building that box I would get a 4 gig ram set from G.skill instead - it will only hurt you 20 bucks but it will give you ram overhead for every possible scenario considering you run 32 bits.
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If memory serves correct. and someone correct me if Im wrong. The ATI card tends to run on the hot side.
For myself on my current build I am leaning to an NVidia card for primarily that reason.
I dont want to have to add any more fans then I have to.
More fans usually means more noise.
And I HATE a machine that sounds like a shop vac
Both Nvidia and ATI cards run hot (65-70C idle) as they default to ~30 something % fan speed. Once built, download RivaTuner and turn the cards fan speed up. Problem solved.
I run my 512 8800 GTS at 65% and never exceed 55C.
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And I HATE a machine that sounds like a shop vac
You'd hate my computer. Since my 3 internal HD's block a good portion of my front air flow, I have to rely on my side window case. The stock 2x120mm's weren't getting it down as they RPM'd about 1000-1200. The new ones I have run about 1900-2000 and are the loudest fans I've ever witnessed, but they move a lot of air. I'll probably be in the market for a fan controller in the near future.
My 8800 GTS 640mb used to run idle at least 60C. With the new higher RPM 120 next to it, it's down to 53C.
I have 1 80mm intake, 1 120mm intake, 1 120mm exhaust, PCI slot fan exhaust, 1 80mm exhaust at the top, PSU has a 140mm fan, i have 2 x 30mm fans on my northbridge and I have an Arctic Freezer 7 HSF.
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Hmmmm,..The only think I might have a concern about is the power supply. 500W just seems to be barely enough. If you get above 80% of the power supply maximum output the power will start to get 'dirty'.
You are also handicapping the E8400 CPU using PC6400 RAM. Is it that the motherboard only supports PC6400? I did not check it.
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"If I was building that box I would get a 4 gig ram set from G.skill instead - it will only hurt you 20 bucks but it will give you ram overhead for every possible scenario considering you run 32 bits."
Same goes for 64bit. Had 8Gb and took off half of it and I've still never ran out of mem (and that with Vista).
"500W just seems to be barely enough."
It depends:
Q9300 2.5GHz
GF 8800GT
2x2Gb 800MHz DDR2
3 HDDs (one active during test)
1 DVD-RW
X-Fi Soundblaster Extreme Music
120mm case fan, G15 keyboard, wireless mouse controller
430W Antec NeoPower HE
"Balanced" Vista64 power scheme
Idle 117W, 150-180W during AH, peak consumption during 3DMark06 (result 10450) 200W. Got it to peak at 260W running WW2Online (one core at 100% load all the time).
It does not hurt to have some reserve watts , though. Meaning that even with such low consumption I would not put a smaller PSU in my comp in any case. I'd also like to point out that both my CPU and GPU are made with smaller chip technology than previous models further reducing their power consumption.
-C+
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It is not the total power, and I should have clarified that. If 90% of that power draw is from one rail then that rail better be really beefy. The power supply he is choosing is around 70% efficiency, so a 30% overhead is needed to provide clean power.
The 3.3V for that supply supplies 22A (max). That is only 72.6W. The one 12V rail for the CPU is rated at 14A, which is 168W and the other 12V rail is rated at 15A, which is 180W.
Those are maximum ratings. Now at 70% capacity which is the true maximum before power is not clean anymore, it goes down to the following maximums.
3.3V = 50.8W
12V1 = 117.6W
12V2 = 126W
The Radeon HD3850 draws 95W peak power off the 12V rail. In my opinion that is getting very close to the edge. It just does not leave much overhead.
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My E6400 at stock speeds, 4gb DDR2, 2x250gb Maxtors, 1 500gb Seagate, 88000 GTS 640mb, SB X-FI, USB PCI card, 2 120mm fans, 2 80mm fans, PCI fan, DVD drive, a few USB devices.
Runs about 260W (taken via the Kill-A-Watt) at 80-100% load on both cores and a good load on the video card. I run a 600W PSU, but a lot of what I need in needed on the amperage of the 12V rail.
When I listed that Thermaltake, I really didn't take a close look at the power requirements for the 3850. I would go with Skuzzy on the PSU concerns.
On the RAM note, the E8400 runs at quad pumped FSB at 1333mhz. Essentially it's 333mhz (quad pumped). So to maintain a 1:1 ratio of FSB:RAM, DDR2 needs to be at least 667mhz (2x333mhz), or PC5300. So PC6400 at 800mhz (2x400mhz) would more than do the job at stock speeds. Overclocking...is a whole different ball game.
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On the RAM note, the E8400 runs at quad pumped FSB at 1333mhz. Essentially it's 333mhz (quad pumped). So to maintain a 1:1 ratio of FSB:RAM, DDR2 needs to be at least 667mhz (2x333mhz), or PC5300. So PC6400 at 800mhz (2x400mhz) would more than do the job at stock speeds. Overclocking...is a whole different ball game.
If synced (CPU and RAM clocks both at 400) at 1600 FSB with (IIRC) a 9 multi that would put that chip at 3.6Ghz, probably as far as you'de want to go on stock air. If clocking higher with aftermarket cooling then getting faster RAM might be worthwhile.
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In the words of BaldEagl and Getback...
"Building a computer?
MUST....OVER....CLCOK"
:p
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It is not the total power, and I should have clarified that. If 90% of that power draw is from one rail then that rail better be really beefy. The power supply he is choosing is around 70% efficiency, so a 30% overhead is needed to provide clean power.
The 3.3V for that supply supplies 22A (max). That is only 72.6W. The one 12V rail for the CPU is rated at 14A, which is 168W and the other 12V rail is rated at 15A, which is 180W.
Those are maximum ratings. Now at 70% capacity which is the true maximum before power is not clean anymore, it goes down to the following maximums.
3.3V = 50.8W
12V1 = 117.6W
12V2 = 126W
The Radeon HD3850 draws 95W peak power off the 12V rail. In my opinion that is getting very close to the edge. It just does not leave much overhead.
I looked at the PSU last night and at first had similar concerns. The problem is, in that price range there's not a lot of better options. Even the PCP&C supplies in that range are lower in amperage on the 12V rail(s).
While it may be close, I think it will work for him. I'd give it a try.
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EMAIL UPDATE:
My daily Newegg newsletter told me that the exact motherboard we picked out and the E8400 are on a combo sale (save $15).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337
You have to go to "Combo Deals" on the bottom left corner of that page and check mark that combo to get the discount.
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Also, some larger power supplies are on sale.
http://promotions.newegg.com/NEemail/Aug-0-2008/Promo082208in/index-landing.html?nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-email-_-E0C-_-Moredeals
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Also, some larger power supplies are on sale.
http://promotions.newegg.com/NEemail/Aug-0-2008/Promo082208in/index-landing.html?nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-email-_-E0C-_-Moredeals
The Coursair and OCZ PSU's both look like they'd do the job and net out around the same price as the Thermaltake.
We knew you were good for something ;)
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Not sure where you got the idea that DDR2-800 is clocked at 400Mhz. It isn't. The memory bus clock rate for DDR2-800 (PC6400) is 200Mhz. The I/O bus clock rate is 400Mhz.
DDR2-1066 (PC8500) is runs at a memory clock of 266Mhz and an I/O clockrate of 533Mhz. Turth is, DDR2-1066 is not fast enough to match the memory bus speed for the E8500, but it is good stable RAM and the system will run faster with it, if the memory controller supports the higher speed memory bus.
For DDR2 RAM, the I/O clock is always double the memory bus clock speed. That may be where the confusion lies. If you want to read more about how DDR2 RAM works, here is a decent explanation (http://www.lostcircuits.com/memory/ddrii/) for it.
Now you want more confusion? DDR3-800 is clocked at 100Mhz with the I/O bus clocked at 400Mhz.
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I haven't ordered this today yet. Power supply is a concern so I am going to be changing that to something higher. I've seen what dirty power can do. Seems like this is one of Skuzzy's pet irritants. How high wattage should I go for this setup?
I can always add or change memory. I chose the G.Skill Memory cause it was part of a combo and runs with this setup. I'm open for suggestions but do want to stay as close to budget as possible but not at the expense of crippling a new system.
I have absolutely no plans to Overclock this machine ever.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR2
You're confusing Memory clock with Bus clock. That article is I believe old and busted. If 100mhz were true, than almost every computer out there, even your Dell/HP would be running at less than a 1:1 ratio, almost a 1:2.
Not as technical, but cements my idea about the numbers we're running here.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/240001-29-howto-overclock-quads-duals-guide
"3. Memory
You will need memory that can keep up with your overclocked system. Again, I’m not going to keep a list. You’ll see RAM listed with timings and speeds that I’ll decode for you using the following examples: "
DDR2-800 (PC2-6400) 4-4-4-12
DDR2-1066 (PC2-8500) 5-5-5-15
The first part is self-explanatory (DDR2 memory).
• The number after it is the data transfer rate. Simply divide it by 2 to get the maximum FSB speed for which the module is rated. Example: 800/2 = 400 MHz. Therefore, DDR2-800 can work on systems with a FSB of up to 400 MHz (anything more and you’re lucky).
• The PC2-XXXX is designation denoting theoretical bandwidth in MB/s. Some memory manufactures use this instead of the DDR2-xxx designation. You can calculate it for any FSB you want by simply taking the FSB and multiplying by 16 (rounded in some cases). Example using a 400 MHz FSB: 400x16=6400. So you’d need at least PC2-6400 to run on a FSB of 400 MHz.
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When I go into my BIOS and do an auto-sync feature (1:1) with FSB/RAM. My E6400 with a 1066mhz FSB is bumped to 1333mhz because I run 667mhz DDR2.
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According to Newegg's spec sheet, the motherboard will support DDR2-1066 memory as a standard RAM speed. It shows DDR-1200, but only for overclocked systems.
Power supplies are a big hot button of mine. I cannot tell you how many times I see people put together nice systems only to be screwed by using the wrong power supply. I have a guy I am dealing with right now who has lockup problems out the wazoo. His systems requires more power than yours, but the builder put some 500W no-name power supply in it. Runs Word and Excel just fine, but every DirectX app just locks the computer up.
The Thermaltake unit is on the edge. I would probably bite the bullet and go ahead with the 610W PC Power and Cooling Silencer (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005). It costs more, but it should handle this system just fine.
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Skuzzy I compared the power supply that you linked to this one:
OCZ GameXStream OCZ600GXSSLI 600W ATX12V Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341001&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-PowerSupplies-_-L2A-_-17341001 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341001&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-PowerSupplies-_-L2A-_-17341001)
About the same price but there is a special on it which would save a little cash, one thing I saw was the OCZ has 4 rails where the one you linked had one. Would the OCZ work as well?
As for memory I guess I want to look at is DDR2-1066 (PC2-8500)?
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Ok Fulmar, let me try a simpler approach.
PC2-6400 (DDR2-800 SDRAM); Clock Speed: 200MHz, Data Rate: 800MHz, Through-put 6400MB/s
PC2-8500 (DDR2-1066 SDRAM): Clock Speed: 233Mhz, Data Rate: 1066Mhz, Through-put 8500MB/s
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DDR2-800, 200mhz would be the memory clock speed. 400mhz would be the bus clock speed.
DDR2-667, 167 mhz memory clock speed, 333mhz bus clock speed -> E8400 bus speed 333mhz (quad pumped to 1333mhz). 1:1
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Ok Fulmar, let me try a simpler approach.
PC2-6400 (DDR2-800 SDRAM); Clock Speed: 200MHz, Data Rate: 800MHz, Through-put 6400MB/s
PC2-8500 (DDR2-1066 SDRAM): Clock Speed: 233Mhz, Data Rate: 1066Mhz, Through-put 8500MB/s
OK. The point I was getting at is that linked and synced CPU to RAM he'd need to get to a 1600 FSB to match his DDR2 800 RAM (my mistake... matching I/O bus clocks, not core clocks at 400).
I don't see what buying even faster RAM does for him unless he were going to clock even higher.
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Ok I changed the Memory and the Power Supply
Memory
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231144 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231144)
Yes I know I should go with 4 GB Ram but I can always add that later. I have been using 1GB and that has worked well for what I use this for. 2 GB should be fine for me for awhile.
PSU
OCZ GameXStream OCZ600GXSSLI 600W ATX12V Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341001&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-PowerSupplies-_-L2A-_-17341001 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341001&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL082208&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL082208-_-PowerSupplies-_-L2A-_-17341001)
There is a sale going on for the OCZ PSU and I saw that it had 4 rails instead of 1 that the one that Skuzzy linked. I did read a post that Skuzzy made about marketing ploys that some PSU vendors use so I'm not real sure that this PSU is the one to use. If not I'll just use the one that Skuzzy linked.
I really want to get this ordered today but the power supply choice is the only thing holding me off.
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Stogie, DDR2 800 will work just fine. It's $6 difference between 800mhz and 1066mhz. You can purchase either or, but you won't see any performance difference. The faster ram would let you overclock to a faster speed, but you don't seem like the overclocking type.
And that is a better choice on a PSU. OCZ is a pretty good brand and that would be adequate power for either video card you choose.
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Fulmar, how about a more practical test as I am not getting through.
I took an E8400 CPU in an ASUS P5Q. Everything running stock and tested PC6400 versus PC8500 using a simple benchmark as I did not ave time to do anything else.
PC6400: 1675MB/sec
PC8500: 2025MB/sec
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Man,now you gotta make me dig for sources :)
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Fulmar, how about a more practical test as I am not getting through.
I took an E8400 CPU in an ASUS P5Q. Everything running stock and tested PC6400 versus PC8500 using a simple benchmark as I did not ave time to do anything else.
PC6400: 1675MB/sec
PC8500: 2025MB/sec
What are you running to benchmark those numbers? If it's a synthetic benchmark, it's really not worth it's weight. I'm still looking for the article I read a while back on ratios and performance.
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This is an older article (2006)...still looking...
"Depending on CPU clock frequency, tight timings have a performance advantage over relaxed timings in CPU/memory intensive applications, ranging from 2% at 2 GHz to 6% at 2.6 GHz."
"When leaving the timings untouched at a CPU clock of 2 GHz or 2.6 GHz respectively, DDR600 performs 2% or 5% better than DDR400 in CPU/memory intensive applications."
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/tight-timings-high-clock-frequencies,1236.html
For $6 difference, I guess it's worth it for a hypothetical 2-5%. I guess I missed the memo when 1066mhz DDR2 wasn't $80 for 2gb. But the 2-5% performance gain would be in a application that requires maximum memory utilization. If it was a $40 difference, the money would be better vested in a faster CPU or better video card.
From that aside and from possibly giving Stogie a headache, go with the 1066.
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I figured for the extra $6 I might as well go for the pc8500 memory. I think I am gonna go for the OCZ PSU as well. Some reported that it was noisy but the manufacturer stated that was not normal and to RMA it. Seems that they keep up with their products and offer decent customer service.
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Actually BaldEagl, if you are going to cu corners, it is better to cut the video card side. The game is more CPU dependent than video card dependent. A faster CPU can make up for a slower video card, but the vice-versa is not true at all.
Ah... so am I correct assuming the order of importance bewteen these three components:
#1 = CPU
#2 = RAM (DDR/DDR2)
#3 = Vid card
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# PSU ... the heart of your machine
## MB ... the skeleton
then your list
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The Thermaltake unit is on the edge. I would probably bite the bullet and go ahead with the 610W PC Power and Cooling Silencer (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005). It costs more, but it should handle this system just fine.
Newegg currently has a promo code deal going on on this PSU
But must order by Sept 17th
$109.99 (after instant Rebate)
-22.00 Promo code
$ 87.00 (after promo code Not including local sales tax. 7% here in NJ)
- $20.00 Mail in Rebate
= $67.00 Total After Mail in rebate.
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geeez for that money you can almost buy ne comp[uter (duo core)
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=GX611AAR&cat=SYS&cpc=SYSbsc
^^^^^$460 and a nvidea 9600 card and you may be at around $600
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geeez for that money you can almost buy ne comp[uter (duo core)
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=GX611AAR&cat=SYS&cpc=SYSbsc
^^^^^$460 and a nvidea 9600 card and you may be at around $600
Part #: GX611AAR
Warranty: 90 Day Direct
Condition: Refurbished
I'd pass.
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Built it and it runs great.. Huge difference from what I was using.. FR used to be in the 25 to 32 range. This machine I'm at 75 smooth and solid. Lowest I've ever seen it go is 69 and that is only in a HUGE furball. Now if I could only hit something.
Thanks for the help guys this was well worth it.