Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jing0 on August 22, 2008, 06:39:24 AM
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Back when I first started playing AH2 a couple of years ago (under the name of reynolds) I spent most of my time in MA...at first I was a N00b and spent a lot of time in the tower, untill i learnt a few tricks and started sending people back to their tower. Sometimes I even got home again. On the few occasions I stuck my nose in the DA I tended to last to just after take off before somebody would score themselves some easy points.
Then I had computer problems, I was outa the game for 8 months before I came back flying as Jingo.
This time things were different: I tried a few sorties in the MA, got pwned, and headed back to the TA. After a while i went for the DA thinking it might help my furballing skills. Again at first I got my bellybutton kicked a lot, but now me and my mk1 hurri are landing the occasional kill.
Anyway just the other night I decided it was time to go back to the real warzone. I flew a number of sorties, flew around trying to find a fight, would spot an enemy plane and be sent to the tower almost immediatly, usually without firing a shot. Did slightly better last night, landing two kills, but after that one good sortie it all went very quickly down hill.
Now I almost exclusivly fly mk1 and mk2 hurricanes, and have done since I started so Its not the plane. So what is it?
What makes the MA and DA feel like worlds apart when your in a dogfight? I am the only person having thos problem? Spend to much time in one and you suck in the other?!
I mean on the face of it there cant be much difference: both arenas have the same plane sets, similar fields, a variety of terrain to fly over, the sky is pretty much identical, and both are inhabited by a selection of pilots who skills range from n00b-dweeb-uberstick.
And yet how well I do (or at least how well I think I do!) in each arena deems to depend on how much time Ive spent there recently.
can anyone shed any light ?
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I havn't spent a lot of time in the DA, but here are my thoughts.
In the old days the DA was used for dueling. The top sticks hung out there and would duel anybody. Duelers not only used skill to get the kill, they used tricks.... low fuel amounts, dump ammo loads to lighten plane, climbed above merge alt and then dove down to get extra speed, also, with all the practice you could get the timing down better so you could start your merge turn that much sooner and be around in your turn before the other guy. Basically it was an arena that some got VERY good at.
Today, the DA is more full of cherry picking, greifers. Those people who can't handle the Mains due to their lack of skill. Now they gang fight in temps and run away when you get an angle on them, basically a bunch of no skilled dweebs.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are still some skilled people in the DA, but its not the place to "hang out" anymore, so there are not as many anymore. So in the old days you would fight top pilots in the DA, today you run into more dweebs.
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What fugitive said in spades.
DA is 20% people working on skills
80% losers who can't cut it in the main.
Hitech really needs to invent a new command for the DA.
.duel gameid works just like the join command only it initiates a duel.
Choice of text accept or pop up box accept just like the join command.
No one in the whole arena takes damage unless they have accepted a duel.
Then damage works between those 2 people, and only those 2 people.
No more confusion, no griefers, no problems.
Ideally it would also work for pt boats, and GV's.
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What fugitive said in spades.
DA is 20% people working on skills
80% losers who can't cut it in the main.
Hitech really needs to invent a new command for the DA.
.duel gameid works just like the join command only it initiates a duel.
Choice of text accept or pop up box accept just like the join command.
No one in the whole arena takes damage unless they have accepted a duel.
Then damage works between those 2 people, and only those 2 people.
No more confusion, no griefers, no problems.
Ideally it would also work for pt boats, and GV's.
Yeah bring the duel "instance" to AH
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DA - Personally, I just love getting into a 1 v 1 (last time was with squaddie to practise) and then get bounced by some numbnut - just gotta ask why
MA wise, there is (sometimes) so much more going on, so more SA required (I could of course be completely wrong - nothing would surprise me today lol..) and the chances of coming across one of the more accomplished pilots seems higher (or I'm flying in the wrong place and getting my backside handed to me lol....)
YMMV,
Wurzel
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Back when I first started playing AH2 a couple of years ago (under the name of reynolds) I spent most of my time in MA...at first I was a N00b and spent a lot of time in the tower, untill i learnt a few tricks and started sending people back to their tower. Sometimes I even got home again. On the few occasions I stuck my nose in the DA I tended to last to just after take off before somebody would score themselves some easy points.
Then I had computer problems, I was outa the game for 8 months before I came back flying as Jingo.
This time things were different: I tried a few sorties in the MA, got pwned, and headed back to the TA. After a while i went for the DA thinking it might help my furballing skills. Again at first I got my bellybutton kicked a lot, but now me and my mk1 hurri are landing the occasional kill.
Anyway just the other night I decided it was time to go back to the real warzone. I flew a number of sorties, flew around trying to find a fight, would spot an enemy plane and be sent to the tower almost immediatly, usually without firing a shot. Did slightly better last night, landing two kills, but after that one good sortie it all went very quickly down hill.
Now I almost exclusivly fly mk1 and mk2 hurricanes, and have done since I started so Its not the plane. So what is it?
What makes the MA and DA feel like worlds apart when your in a dogfight? I am the only person having thos problem? Spend to much time in one and you suck in the other?!
I mean on the face of it there cant be much difference: both arenas have the same plane sets, similar fields, a variety of terrain to fly over, the sky is pretty much identical, and both are inhabited by a selection of pilots who skills range from n00b-dweeb-uberstick.
And yet how well I do (or at least how well I think I do!) in each arena deems to depend on how much time Ive spent there recently.
can anyone shed any light ?
Heh, it is the plane and the arena.
1) In the DA if you were dueling someone, that someone did stay and fight with a pretty equal plane and e. You were both looking for a fight and not for a kill.
2) If you were in the cherry pick lake, well, you either found someone that did not see you on time, you might have had the advantage, and really the skill level in that lake is below 0.
3) In the MA however, you will most likely meet the professional dweebs lol. These are the guys that have been practicing their tactics of fighting with an advantage for years and know exactly when and how to get you. In the Hurri I, you already gave them the advantage anyway since your plane cannot climb, cannot excel, no HP, no guns etc. All you got is two maybe three turns until you get too slow and then you die
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Even before the DA was adulterated by the griefers it was not a microcosmic representation of the MA. The dueling experience is designed to articulate particular aspects of air combat in isolation, particularly on the mechanical level. In the MA, 1 vs 1 encounters, especially of the Co-E/Co-Alt/Same Plane persuasion, are relatively rare. So, it stands to reason that practicing that rarely occurring situation over and over and over again in the DA will only have a limited degree of applicability in the MA. Conversely, the unpredictable, dynamic and complex MA environment where 1 vs 1 encounters are rare is not going to necessarily magically endow you with the mechanical refinement necessary for dueling prowess.
The MA is 90% mental acuity and 10% mechanical flying, the DA is the opposite, 90% mechanical flying and 10% mental effort. I am generalizing for the purpose of contrast to enunciate the point of why success in one does not guarantee success in the other...This is not a popular assertion among those who measure their E-Peens by their success in the DA then marginalize their relative failure in the MA due to the fact there's few 1 vs 1's.
As rare as 1 vs 1's are in the MA they're still exponentially more common than they were in real life. The 1 vs 1 duel is really a contrivance of gaming with very little to do with the spirit or practice of real air combat in WWII. In WWII if you were involved in a 1 vs 1 both you and your opponent screwed up very badly at some point to even put you in that situation to begin with.
<Waits patiently for the thread stalking Nazi's to come>
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Ok so far the concencus seems to be that I sepnt 6 months fighting dweebs in the MA...went away for 6 months, and by the time i came back all the dweebs had moved to the DA just in time for me to arrive there. :huh
This seems unlikely somehow...
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Nope, the assertion is that the 2 are very different. Whilst you can get in a furball in the DA, its not like a furball in the MA. There are some very good sticks that will da anyone and everyone - who also do very well in the MA's. Then there are those (like me) who 1 v 1 suck badly, but do reasonably well in the MA.
As Zazen said, the MA is more about having your wits about you (ie, good SA), whereas the DA requires more skill flying your individual plane against a single opponent.
Wurzel
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The DA Lake is a furball, and the tactics learned there here don't help in the MA. I think the Mid War is a much better place to learn ACM and flying skills.
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Jing0,
Come to the EW arena...it's usually under-populated (sometimes too much so) and relatively easy to find 1v1 or 2v1 fights. Since you fly Hurri-I and Hurri-II, you'll be right at home. Sure, you'll find some dweebs and HO-ers there and the occasional gangbang, but for the most part people are willing to call off their countrymen (or stay out if asked) if there's a good 1v1 fight.
Guys still love to grab bases and "win the map", so if there's a base assault going on, all bets are off and you get what you get.
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In DA, I just work on skill. Practice my 1 v 1 etc. In MA, I'm a land grabber half the time, and half the time I'm furballing at TT.
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Id have thought that the DA furball lake would help with sa and acms...people there might or might not be dweebs/pickers/vulchers/ho'ers etc but given the difference in population sizes Id expect to find a fair number of these in any MA anyway. Its rarely 1-1 (given that bish usually seem to be outnumbered these days its more like 2 or 3 v1!) and theres up to a couple of dozen craft in a furball most nights. Ok so Ive been in bigger MA fights (the biggest probably having about 100 fighters involved not long after i first started...I got shot a lot that day) but usually not much bigger.
I cant see it being the plane. regardless of the arena my hurri gets picked by ponys/38s/yaks/typhie etc whilst twisting and turning on the deck with a corsair/zero/spit...some days its raining aircraft.
I might try the EW/MW see if thats a better step up.
Im wandering if theres some sort of strategic/tactical difference Im not aware of. EG: in the DA/furball u just head for nearest red dot and start shooting whilst trying to dodge the other red dots...in the MA there are other factors; bases to take, ack to watch out for, base taking missions to join/intercept/escort and a variety of other objectives which change the nature of the game.
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Ghost, look for a wishlist topic started by me in the past 10 days :)
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In DA, I just work on skill. Practice my 1 v 1 etc. In MA, I'm a land grabber half the time, and half the time I'm furballing at TT.
and then ther's "dora time"! hee hee :devil
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and then ther's "dora time"! hee hee :devil
Gotta keep all them skill fresh :D
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Everything is greatly concentrated in furball lake. There is also a much higher concentration of both younger and newer pilots and much greater percentage of the "screw living, squirm til someone pops ya" flyin' in Furball lake than there is in the average MA battle. As a result, in the DA you don't have to be a better than average pilot to manage multiple shot opportunities in a sortie.
In the MA, things are spread out, folks are much more focused on surviving the sortie - and as a result your chances of getting a good shot on someone in a POS plane that can't catch squat is about 3% of what it is in the DA if you fly offensively, and if you up for defense over a capped field, your opponents will (generally speaking) have about 5 times as much E-vantage over you than is usually the case on average in the general furball that you are used to in the DA.
SA is very different as well - in the DA, it's such a general cluster that about all you have to do is make yourself slightly less appetizing than someone else to catch a break - what you are mostly concerned with when it comes to SA is making sure that you don't get clobbered by someone you didn't see. In the MA, your SA has failed you long before the time the guy commits to his attack - you have to react to the enemy far, far earlier.
I like the DA - In an hour or so, I can get what would be about a weeks worth of gunnery and handling practice if I were to do it in the MA. Handy when I'm trying to get a better handle on planes I don't usually fly when we're assigned them for FSO's.
But I wouldn't want to fly there all the time.
<S>
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When you're in the DA, you have a 'better' SA. I guess it's because that you already start out at 5k, and the knowledge that almost no one will be higher than you except score tards.
DA=Better SA
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Thats what was great about AW with a relaxed and full realism arena. It gave a place for everyone, while still be "the place to be".
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I agree wholeheartedly Zazen, as one who suffers daily from the affliction of being rather good 1v1, then seeing folks I've DAed with and outflown 1v1 repeatedly landing 10 times the kills I do, primarily because I cannot seem to get the gunnery down and often run dry on ammo while having 1, 2, or no kills.
Even before the DA was adulterated by the griefers it was not a microcosmic representation of the MA. The dueling experience is designed to articulate particular aspects of air combat in isolation, particularly on the mechanical level. In the MA, 1 vs 1 encounters, especially of the Co-E/Co-Alt/Same Plane persuasion, are relatively rare. So, it stands to reason that practicing that rarely occurring situation over and over and over again in the DA will only have a limited degree of applicability in the MA. Conversely, the unpredictable, dynamic and complex MA environment where 1 vs 1 encounters are rare is not going to necessarily magically endow you with the mechanical refinement necessary for dueling prowess.
The MA is 90% mental acuity and 10% mechanical flying, the DA is the opposite, 90% mechanical flying and 10% mental effort. I am generalizing for the purpose of contrast to enunciate the point of why success in one does not guarantee success in the other...This is not a popular assertion among those who measure their E-Peens by their success in the DA then marginalize their relative failure in the MA due to the fact there's few 1 vs 1's.
As rare as 1 vs 1's are in the MA they're still exponentially more common than they were in real life. The 1 vs 1 duel is really a contrivance of gaming with very little to do with the spirit or practice of real air combat in WWII. In WWII if you were involved in a 1 vs 1 both you and your opponent screwed up very badly at some point to even put you in that situation to begin with.
<Waits patiently for the thread stalking Nazi's to come>
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Everything is greatly concentrated in furball lake. There is also a much higher concentration of both younger and newer pilots and much greater percentage of the "screw living, squirm til someone pops ya" flyin' in Furball lake than there is in the average MA battle. As a result, in the DA you don't have to be a better than average pilot to manage multiple shot opportunities in a sortie.
In the MA, things are spread out, folks are much more focused on surviving the sortie - and as a result your chances of getting a good shot on someone in a POS plane that can't catch squat is about 3% of what it is in the DA if you fly offensively, and if you up for defense over a capped field, your opponents will (generally speaking) have about 5 times as much E-vantage over you than is usually the case on average in the general furball that you are used to in the DA.
SA is very different as well - in the DA, it's such a general cluster that about all you have to do is make yourself slightly less appetizing than someone else to catch a break - what you are mostly concerned with when it comes to SA is making sure that you don't get clobbered by someone you didn't see. In the MA, your SA has failed you long before the time the guy commits to his attack - you have to react to the enemy far, far earlier.
<S>
Hmmm that sound about right. I will ponder this furthur. :salute
When you're in the DA, you have a 'better' SA. I guess it's because that you already start out at 5k, and the knowledge that almost no one will be higher than you except score tards.
DA=Better SA
considering how low I fly my Hurri that makes everyone in the DA a score tard :lol
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I havn't spent a lot of time in the DA, but here are my thoughts.
In the old days the DA was used for dueling. The top sticks hung out there and would duel anybody. Duelers not only used skill to get the kill, they used tricks.... low fuel amounts, dump ammo loads to lighten plane, climbed above merge alt and then dove down to get extra speed, also, with all the practice you could get the timing down better so you could start your merge turn that much sooner and be around in your turn before the other guy. Basically it was an arena that some got VERY good at.
Today, the DA is more full of cherry picking, greifers. Those people who can't handle the Mains due to their lack of skill. Now they gang fight in temps and run away when you get an angle on them, basically a bunch of no skilled dweebs.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are still some skilled people in the DA, but its not the place to "hang out" anymore, so there are not as many anymore. So in the old days you would fight top pilots in the DA, today you run into more dweebs.
This first half of your post is exactly why I don't dual. Dueling in the DA allows far too many things that somewhat game the game IMO. You can't fly on 25% fuel in the MA or fly from 3rd person. In the MA you aren't running into the other con at co alt and be able to make that same practiced move time and time again, simply because you know what the merge will be. In short dueling in the DA isn't random and IMO not as challenging because you already know what to expect in the fight.
To me that's not a good or accurate challenge to a pilots skill set. In the Ma you may have just leveled off at alt and maybe slow or have almost 100% fuel while the other guy might be on a light fuel load and have more E stored up. Much less you have no clue what the other guy will be flying, which ends up causing much more random fights. This IMO is more of a challenge and a better test of skill.
The sad part is you can almost never find good one on one fights in the MA, as for the furball lake, that place is a total joke.
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BTW what is a greifer? thats a new one to me....
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BTW what is a greifer? thats a new one to me....
A griefer is someone who performs an action not for any sense of self-fulfilment, but for the sole express purpose of ruining the fun for others. Think of it like a fun vampire, your pain is their pleasure and your pleasure is their pain.
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okay, and how do u identify one?
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okay, and how do u identify one?
Horns, a forked tail, a sociopathic personality disorder, no sex life, no friends, yellow teeth, stained underwear, an offensive body odor and a tendency to cackle uncontrollably when people lament publicly about their lame behavior... :aok
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<-- likes to greif NOE missions and goons
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okay, and how do u identify one?
Someone who flies to a GV-only section of the Dueling Arena to harass a group of people who put together a GV-only event.
Someone who will sink a carrier or destroy the fighter hangers at a base to break up a good furball when there is no intention to capture said base.
Etc., etc.
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Eh, I know I'll take flak for this, but in my book people who hit the HQ to take away bar dar are griefers. :furious I simply move to another arena so I can find the enemy with a reasonable amount of effort. :aok
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Jing0, if you're having problems with 1v1's in the DA, you may want to make sure your opponent is following basic Duelist Rules.
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Rules! What flipp'n Rules? :rofl As far as Im conserned, combat has no rules :salute
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Accepted Duelist Rules (http://www.dfcah.com/duelist_rules.htm).
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Rules! What flipp'n Rules? :rofl As far as Im conserned, combat has no rules :salute
Duels do. They are staged engagments.
Not every area of aces high is intended to be a free for all. If you test that concept in a structured arena in the presence of someone with CM privs, you'll likely find yourself looking at your desktop unexpectedly.
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For duels with dissimilar aircraft types, this rule handicaps the aircraft with higher wingloading, doesn't it?:
# If you get more then 2.5K from your opponent while your plane's nose is pointed away from him, you lose that round. If both contestants are nose away, that round is forfeit. This includes altitude.
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For duels with dissimilar aircraft types, this rule handicaps the aircraft with higher wingloading, doesn't it?:
It was 2.0 originally but was extended to 2.5 because of the turn radius of some aircraft. I can't think of any good E-fighter that needs more then that, if so then they are running and not fighting. Remember, this is for duels and you only have one opponent to deal with.
P.S. Plus those rules were set up for similar aircraft. Everything should be equal but pilot skill.
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I agree wholeheartedly Zazen, as one who suffers daily from the affliction of being rather good 1v1, then seeing folks I've DAed with and outflown 1v1 repeatedly landing 10 times the kills I do, primarily because I cannot seem to get the gunnery down and often run dry on ammo while having 1, 2, or no kills.
Yup, I have a very good friend like that. He's a DA God and a MA pelt dispenser. Of course if he gets a 1 vs 1 in the MA he's golden, but the chance of finding five pure 1 vs 1's in the MA in one week let alone one sortie is something very close to nil.
Gunnery is very important in the MA as ammo conservation and killing quickly equals greater effectiveness in a very direct way. In a 1 vs 1 duel your ammunition is, for all practical purposes, infinite as you only need to drop one guy and you're done. So, gunnery is relatively unimportant so long as you're wise enough to not give up serious angle for any one shooting opportunity in a duel.
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Yeop That's why i can take 5-20 rounds to kill anything in a D9, where I'd miss all 65 tater on an a20 =)
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P.S. Plus those rules were set up for similar aircraft. Everything should be equal but pilot skill.
Ok, that makes sense.
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You can't fly in the DA with the rule book, unless you use it to chalk your wheels.
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Accepted Duelist Rules (http://www.dfcah.com/duelist_rules.htm).
Tolet paper
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Jing0, if you're having problems with 1v1's in the DA, you may want to make sure your opponent is following basic Duelist Rules.
No im not having problems in the DA, 1v1s are fine. its the MA im struggling with. And I dont follow rules.....
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As far as I'm aware, there are no rules in the MA's - I choose not to do certain things (unless someone fires first, then all bets are off). Other than that, fly what you like, when you like, how you like - it makes things far more interesting.
Wurzel (it should be born in mind I'm a tiny bit drunk right now)
:D
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And I dont follow rules.....
Then you may not be as good as you think in a 1v1 if you depend on something other then your skill.
P.S. But then again you could go up against someone like creton and get owned no matter how much of an advantage you started out with.
P.P.S. Note: I'm talking about a duel and not something that happens in the furball area of the DA.
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Some definitions of the word duel:
Duel-As practiced from the 15th to 20th centuries in Western societies, a duel was a consensual fight between two people, with matched deadly weapons, in accordance with rules explicitly or implicitly agreed upon, over a point of honor
Duel-A prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honor.
Duel-prearranged armed fight with deadly weapons, usually swords or pistols, between two persons concerned with a point of honor.
Prearranged? formal? rules? Obviously people that don't do that do not use the Dueling Arena for it's intended purpose. That's ok. They have an area of the map marked "furballing" to occupy those boneheads so they are kept busy and not bother those who do wish to use the DA for its purpose.
It is sad though that there are utter noobs beginning to belive it is an institutional FFA arena.
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No im not having problems in the DA, 1v1s are fine. its the MA im struggling with. And I dont follow rules.....
It's a completely different mindset. You have to think outside of the box in the MA, but at the same time be able to integrate your actions seamlessly, at the spur of the moment, with the friendlies in your area without losing your SA or blowing your E. In the DA, it's you, yourself and I against a single known quantity. There's obviously no integration with other random people required in a duel. In the MA you must be able to adapt and change your "plan" in a dynamic way at any instant. That unpredictability means keeping your options open is paramount. The less options you leave yourself the less likely you will be in a position to adapt to the changing situation and you will die and/or fail to kill.
The worst bad habit people make when transitioning from the DA to the MA is target fixation. They can't "let go" and get "married" to a single bandit, terminal target fixation is really what a 1 vs 1 duel is in essence. But, that's a recipe for disaster in the MA, you have to learn when to "get off" a bandit and switch to another or consolidate E/Alt/Position. I've written articles on MA Strategy, cooperative tactics and setups available on Netaces and my squadron's website...I've had a lot of very positive feedback from those, see if reading them helps...
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You can't fly in the DA with the rule book, unless you use it to chalk your wheels.
BS. Have fun in your little world however :aok
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Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:
1) People making JABO runs
2) People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3) Vulching
4) People bothering to land kills
(OK the last one I get a little)
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Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:
1) People making JABO runs
2) People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3) Vulching
4) People bothering to land kills
(OK the last one I get a little)
Hehe, I was practicing in the Ki-61 tonight just before FSO and I landed kills simply because the perked-bandits all ran away. ;)
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Its better punctualize what really is SA to avoid certain nonsense I've read here.
When you begin your action, having SA is not only tracking your enemy in 1Vs1
Sa means having consciousness of your alt, your speed and potential, having planned in a second your position to attack, the position of ALL the contacts near you, their speed their E ,directions, potential of threath and the point of your egress or escape after the action (that do not means to run, but find the convenient position to repeat/reprogram your attack.)
Not to mention the consciousness of the landscape under you, tha can be useful in case things are not going right.
Its rediculous thinking of SA as a scanning a bit the sky above and then happily slip in a turn 'n' turn in 1vs1 ad libitum.....
Your SA improves and its heavily proved when the situation around you is total chaos, enemies are over, under around, and they attack you without no rules , no mercy, ready to pick you ( yes pick!!!) at your minimal error, at your first distraction, when you are drooling for a kill target fixating.....
All the rest is speculation on the way to intend flying and fighting....but this is a neverending debate.
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You can't fly in the DA with the rule book, unless you use it to chalk your wheels.
Tolet paper
It's a shame a shades account has been wasted on someone such as this. Sweet spelling btw! You know those "Suffocation Warnings" on plastic bags? Ignore em and go for it!
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Four things happen in the DA furball area that I just can't understand:
1) People making JABO runs
2) People with bomber formations dropping ord on bases
3) Vulching
4) People bothering to land kills
(OK the last one I get a little)
5) People climbing to 10k or higher
6) People flying together and being gangtards, then calling it squad tactics
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Got here late on this one.
But the main difference of the DA and MA besides the aformentioned "cherry picking, griefeing gangbangers" is this:
I think JingO was talking about the difference in mechanics of the planes. I am comparing Furball lake to any other furball in the MA.
At furball lake all bases are at 5k. So you take off with much more engine performance and get to target speed much faster because of this. It takes half the time to get to 10k and and at max cruse speed or your intended Alt and speed what ever that is. Therefor you will immediatly find yoursefl with all the speed and alt you need in almost any plane no matter how slow it is. There is no terrain over the lake and you get to use all the alt you came in with.
You typically can in about 2 min find yourself over the furball with tons of smash to dive in with and you didnt have to avoid anyone to get there.
If you are in a slower plane like the hurri you can have almost endless energy due to this. You will just be able to use your zoom and turn to max effect against an even faster plane trying to slow down enough to get a shot.
You can up with 25% fuel and still have plenty of flying time therefor you are meeting enemies with light weight fuel or even light gun packages.
Third person view is enabled. That never helped me but some people can fly like that real good. So this gives them a better SA component if you dont fly in third person.
The radar always shows where the cons are. So its easy to set up a climb or dive to a DOT and merge with whatever speed or alt you need or want.
In the MA it takes time and fuel to climb then you have more time to get speed and during that time you may be forced to deal with the enemy and so you wont have all that smash if any. Fuel loads are heavy etc.
You can easily get addicted to the speed you have in any plane in the DA. Then you go to MA and find that you cant quite get that kind of advantage very easily. YOu have to take time to get to alt, take the right fuel load, and avoid higher cons while you are climbing to your alt. Then you cant see the dots outside of your base radar so you cant make a pre decision on how to engage until you are in icon range.
I think its mainly the 5k base and short time to max speed before you engage. IF you are lower you can just dive to get speed immediatly and then set up. ITs just alot easier this way. The MA doesnt give you any of this on take off.
Agent360
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I'm rather suprised at some of the responses from certain people regarding this... Especially when those responses are:
- Duels are predictable; and
- Duels don't help the MA fight because so few are coalt co-e in the MA
A good dueler is unpredictable... And, as such, a good dueler is not always co-e.
I've found that spending time in the DA has given me the confidence to turn around and take on any bandit on my six, regardless of plane matchups... I don't win them all, but I darn sure think I will, and have a fun time trying... That's a big (and important, IMO) difference between me now, and when I started. That whole "darn there's a lala on my 6... He's gonna catch me" situation is no biggy any more. It used to be a very bad thing.
IMO the things you learn in dueling (edge, timing, maneuver, etc.) are all *very* applicable in the MA...
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Rules! What flipp'n Rules? :rofl As far as Im conserned, combat has no rules :salute
You're acting like KILLERg after I pwnt his butt in 3 fights. :noid
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I'm rather suprised at some of the responses from certain people regarding this... Especially when those responses are:
- Duels are predictable; and
- Duels don't help the MA fight because so few are coalt co-e in the MA
A good dueler is unpredictable... And, as such, a good dueler is not always co-e.
I've found that spending time in the DA has given me the confidence to turn around and take on any bandit on my six, regardless of plane matchups... I don't win them all, but I darn sure think I will, and have a fun time trying... That's a big (and important, IMO) difference between me now, and when I started. That whole "darn there's a lala on my 6... He's gonna catch me" situation is no biggy any more. It used to be a very bad thing.
IMO the things you learn in dueling (edge, timing, maneuver, etc.) are all *very* applicable in the MA...
Well, a single guy you know will be in a certain plane, at a certain alt, at a certain place, while possibly unpredictable from that point forward within that limited scope and context, is nothing close to the unpredictability presented in the MA. Also, as someone who prides himself on surgical tactical and strategic precision I can tell you categorically that I end up forced to fight in unfavorable circumstances a lot in the MA, so it would be even more common for someone not so "surgical" in their overall approach. On average at least once a sortie I am oblidged to do something like force an overshoot and gank someone trying to run me down or bounce me that has a significant E and maneuverability advantage. So, the MA is a potentially valid place to learn how to fight in a much wider variety of situations and scenarios.
What the MA isn't is a particularly good place to learn and master a "merge move". You will very rarely get to practice and articulate a same plane/Co-E/Co-Alt merge move in the MA. So, if you are ever faced with that situation you have a wonderful chance of blowing it if the other guy knows his stuff...That is really the value of the DA and what primarily distinguishes a great dueler from a mediocre one, the refinement of various "merge moves", which represent only a minuscule fraction of what comprises an accomplished MA fighter.
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What the MA isn't is a particularly good place to learn and master a "merge move". You will very rarely get to practice and articulate a same plane/Co-E/Co-Alt merge move in the MA. So, if you are ever faced with that situation you have a wonderful chance of blowing it if the other guy knows his stuff...That is really the value of the DA and what primarily distinguishes a great dueler from a mediocre one, the refinement of various "merge moves", which represent only a minuscule fraction of what comprises an accomplished MA fighter.
I think you are selling dueling short for it's usefullness in other situations on one point. In the context of AH air combat is a 3d chess game to get your guns on the other guy without exposing yourself to his guns (or at least minimising your own exposure). Through dueling one can expose themselves to a myriad of different 3d positioning and find the right and wrong way to respond to them. At any point in a dynamic engagement presenting a BFM problem, if one of the opponents can say "I've seen this before and I know what to do next", that is an asset on their side. The better pilots can go a step further than that. They can look at positioning and say "This looks failure...If I just adjust my position and attitude slightly I can turn this into...I've seen this before and I know what to do".
This experience can be gained in a far more time efficient manner through dueling than without. While there are other skills needed to be effective in the MA, this skillset can be applied regardless of relative E, dissimilar/similar aircraft, and number of opponents on hand. One can get by without it, but they will at times have less options available to them in a given situation.
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This experience can be gained in a far more time efficient manner through dueling than without. While there are other skills needed to be effective in the MA, this skillset can be applied regardless of relative E, dissimilar/similar aircraft, and number of opponents on hand. One can get by without it, but they will at times have less options available to them in a given situation.
Yup, I agree with that, especially if it's "setup" for variety rather than just the traditional format to settle a grudge. It is especially true for newer players who have not completely mastered, to the theoretical maximum of their innate ability, the mechanical fundamentals. But, the average player flies 30-50 hrs per month in the MA, some many, many more than that. It's a certainty, even if they never touch the DA, they will get a thorough education in what planes/pilots can/will do and what to do against them in any given situation over a reasonable length of time.
Obviously, the biggest distinction between real-life and the game is, we don't die. We have literally thousands of times more flight hours of experience in our cartoon planes than even the most experienced real world combat aviators had. So, the diminishing returns of repeating the same or very similar thing over and over is relatively quickly achieved. Once the fundamentals have been repeated so much they are indelibly etched into our instinctive playbook, further reinforcing them in condensed fashion has very little impact on our overall net performance. A player is probably as good as they are going to get at any respective aspect of the mechanical fundamentals at that point. From that point on developing the mental aspect, for which the MA is far more useful and "condensed", is the realm in which continued development is likely to be achieved in accelerated fashion.
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Nope, the assertion is that the 2 are very different. Whilst you can get in a furball in the DA, its not like a furball in the MA. There are some very good sticks that will da anyone and everyone - who also do very well in the MA's. Then there are those (like me) who 1 v 1 suck badly, but do reasonably well in the MA.
As Zazen said, the MA is more about having your wits about you (ie, good SA), whereas the DA requires more skill flying your individual plane against a single opponent.
Wurzel
Yah, I do tolerably well in MA (the afore-mentioned 'SA' part) but I cant fight my way out of a paper bag :frown:in a standard merge-type duel, even against other jugs--very few of the things that help in 1 area apply to the other
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Yah, I do tolerably well in MA (the afore-mentioned 'SA' part) but I cant fight my way out of a paper bag :frown:in a standard merge-type duel, even against other jugs--very few of the things that help in 1 area apply to the other
Many are like that, I am like that. I realized after my 5,237th duel that it was doing nothing for me. I was not improving or learning anything I didn't already know. I would estimate I've literally had 15,000+ Hrs of cartoon air combat experience. The limiting factor for me is not lack of experience in any particular form, it's simply my innate ability and aptitude for it being currently "maxed out".
However, my "mental" game has never stagnated, I continue to grow in that respect. There are a few people that are equally accomplished mechanically and mentally, but it's pretty rare and no different than someone who's a gifted musician or artist. For the rest of us common plebes our natural aptitudes and personality are going to make us better at one than the other to varying degrees, regardless of "play-mode", after a certain "critical mass" of air combat experience.
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BS. Have fun in your little world however :aok
I understand about rules in 1 to 1 dueling, I was mostly talking about dogfighting over FurBall Lake.