Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: apcampbell on August 23, 2008, 12:01:21 AM
-
I swear I saw it coming! :O Excelent job planning and executing your strategy against us Allies. Taking down 3 of our CV's in the north literally left us with no option but to ditch.
With fuel conservation methods, most of us could have made C76 (the A5 and A15 strikes), but the time would have been long expired by the time we got there.
In all, a fun FSO this month. It just looks like us Allies lost the strategy battle :salute We'll get you guys next month!! :devil
-
Agreed, I think every one saw it coming. With the Allied CV's sandwiched between CV's and land bases even forest gump could have taken them out. There was no defense of the bases because it was obvious if the cv's were out the Allied planes couldn't get home and would be lost. Kudo's to the axis CiC for picking it up and correctly planning it. Also kudo's to the Allied CiC's for planning the best possible plan against a set-up slaughter. We still had fun filming almost our whole squad having to ditch, but to the FSO staff, please don't do a similar one sided set-up in the future.
-
Agreed, I think every one saw it coming. With the Allied CV's sandwiched between CV's and land bases even forest gump could have taken them out. There was no defense of the bases because it was obvious if the cv's were out the Allied planes couldn't get home and would be lost. Kudo's to the axis CiC for picking it up and correctly planning it. Also kudo's to the Allied CiC's for planning the best possible plan against a set-up slaughter. We still had fun filming almost our whole squad having to ditch, but to the FSO staff, please don't do a similar one sided set-up in the future.
Not so sure it was 1 sided! I think the planning was a bit off for the allies, The Unforgiven tallied c74 and there were only 3 cons defending it--> :huh < I hope the other cv groups were defended a little better !Anyway it was a good time!! <S> to the staff---> WTG
-
Not so sure it was 1 sided! I think the planning was a bit off for the allies, The Unforgiven tallied c74 and there were only 3 cons defending it--> :huh < I hope the other cv groups were defended a little better !Anyway it was a good time!! <S> to the staff---> WTG
I might have been mistaken. 3 CV's sandwiched by 2 CV's to the east and 6 land bases sets up a very historical scenario. In the last FSO at least they said it was a "what if"? The Allied CiC was also given 5 targets and 5 defensive spots with about 250 planes. If anyone here thought that CV 73,74 or 75 would survive and that their returning planes on optimum fuel consumption could make it south a couple of hundred miles in the 60 minutes allowed. Please raise your hand. Even if they had a chance to make it I'm sure the Axis CO's would recognize that easy kills would be had hovering the fields.
-
Not so sure it was 1 sided! I think the planning was a bit off for the allies, The Unforgiven tallied c74 and there were only 3 cons defending it--> :huh < I hope the other cv groups were defended a little better !Anyway it was a good time!! <S> to the staff---> WTG
I don't see it that way. We (Nightmares) smoked A15 & only saw tops 6 KI-61's defending. I think maybe there might be to much to take into account these day's with the number of squad's involved and the number of target to achieve. It's very hard to defend a target within two sector for sixty minutes with so many rearm bases so close.
The plane set was off, the objectives were unclear, & the Allies had no chance of winning. This FSO was slanted from the start and IMHO fun as hell:) I saw every stupid mistake and in frame one tried to set it up for all the Allies to get in and fight to have fun but I knew we were screwed.
This is a first for me. This was a garbage FSO I managed to have a ball flying??? wtf is that :) I had fun every frame but yet had zero chance of winning a frame.
Plane Set, Plane Set, & then we can think about objectives.
MGD
-
There were few fun moments for me for at least 2 of the three frames. And the second frame saw a little bit of fun mostly due to us getting lucky, and going a bit off orders.
The Allied command decided not to use close escort and use fighter sweeps instead. This only works if your sweeping fighters actually come across the enemy. If they don't your strike packages get bounced. Which we were. Repeatedly. We were never bounced on our way to or from the target. Fighters were always waiting for us at the target. They don't even need to wait that high. They know we have to come down to dive bomb.
In both frame 1 & 3, we were bounced by defending fighters as we came on target. Once bounced it was over and done with. Heavy birds caught low against zeroes and KI's with no high cover. Forgetaboutit. Yeah usually we were able to get our bombs away but you're getting pounced on as you pull up from your dive.
Carrier placement was also a problem. Carriers were placed pretty much in their default starting locations. Not like everyone doesn't know where those are. Third frame we were set to launch INSIDE axis radar. Carrier was right off shore. Would have been simpler for us to just disembark and march to the target base. :) I exaggerate that last point but still. :)
Were there some kind of restrictions placed on the allies that the rank and file don't know about?
-
There were few fun moments for me for at least 2 of the three frames. And the second frame saw a little bit of fun mostly due to us getting lucky, and going a bit off orders.
The Allied command decided not to use close escort and use fighter sweeps instead. This only works if your sweeping fighters actually come across the enemy. If they don't your strike packages get bounced. Which we were. Repeatedly. We were never bounced on our way to or from the target. Fighters were always waiting for us at the target. They don't even need to wait that high. They know we have to come down to dive bomb.
In both frame 1 & 3, we were bounced by defending fighters as we came on target. Once bounced it was over and done with. Heavy birds caught low against zeroes and KI's with no high cover. Forgetaboutit. Yeah usually we were able to get our bombs away but you're getting pounced on as you pull up from your dive.
Carrier placement was also a problem. Carriers were placed pretty much in their default starting locations. Not like everyone doesn't know where those are. Third frame we were set to launch INSIDE axis radar. Carrier was right off shore. Would have been simpler for us to just disembark and march to the target base. :) I exaggerate that last point but still. :)
Were there some kind of restrictions placed on the allies that the rank and file don't know about?
ok well ive been on this so much in fso its jus tthe wway it happens sometimes anyways im glad i was on the giving side this time <S> to all it was fun
-
I don't see it that way. We (Nightmares) smoked A15 & only saw tops 6 KI-61's defending. I think maybe there might be to much to take into account these day's with the number of squad's involved and the number of target to achieve. It's very hard to defend a target within two sector for sixty minutes with so many rearm bases so close.
MGD
You may be correct, although I still find 3 FM2s as fighter cap over C74 extremely inadiquate. I would think DEFENDING the only home you could land on would be somewhat of a priority :aok Also IMHO the plane set was fair and actually leaned toward the allies! Hellcats are murderus little demons.
No matter what the plane set is I believe F S O comes down to planning and execution, and the axis executed in superior fassion in this event! <S> to all who participated.
-
I had fun :D :salute
-
Yeah I do agree about the plane set. I never found it that unbalanced. Though I don't personally like the hellcat it's not too bad.
It really came down to planning and the Axis commanders did a better job of it. I know personally i am taking a lot of lessons away from here to future events.
-
Agreed!
-
Salute Allies. No matter what the results are, if you had fun, it was a success. We had some hairy nasty engagements in every frame. Some small changes on the allies side could have had a dramatic impact on the scoring, but don't loose too much sleep over it, there will always be another one. Just keep making them fun. <S> FSO Staff.
-
Thanks everyone! Glad you enjoyed it :aok :salute
-
The Allied command decided not to use close escort and use fighter sweeps instead. This only works if your sweeping fighters actually come across the enemy. If they don't your strike packages get bounced. Which we were. Repeatedly. We were never bounced on our way to or from the target. Fighters were always waiting for us at the target. They don't even need to wait that high. They know we have to come down to dive bomb.
Carrier placement was also a problem. Carriers were placed pretty much in their default starting locations. Not like everyone doesn't know where those are. Third frame we were set to launch INSIDE axis radar. Carrier was right off shore. Would have been simpler for us to just disembark and march to the target base. :) I exaggerate that last point but still. :)
Were there some kind of restrictions placed on the allies that the rank and file don't know about?
Actually there weren't any fighter sweeps this time around for Allied.
The restriction placed were invisible. When placed in the center of several enemy you have to defend and attack 2 directions from 3 of the 5 bases. That plus the fact that there were 5 targets and 5 defensive points in frame 3 just simply thinned out the group.
On a side note I think something that is definitely needed is a how to guide for CiC's. It should include everything from a check list from start to finish of the week, a list of commands not usually used and possibly not known to the group (such as carrier movement and control), and anything else that might help in the process.
The FSO has grown to something that we all look forward to. Just as any game however I think steps should be taken to protect it and make it better. Small things like dropping bombs on take off to get around the rules is one of a host of small things that can make the game lopsided.
I know that this is getting long but I think one more thing might make future carrier ops interesting. What if the FSO had 2 phases. The first phase would start 1 hour early with the CiC's taking control of the groups and driving them to where they wanted staying inside say a 4 sector box. Phase 2 would start the normal time with planes actually having to find their target.
Looking forward to the next round in September.
:salute
Hamblue
-
Small things like dropping bombs on take off to get around the rules is one of a host of small things that can make the game lopsided.
I don't think that is circumventing the rules. Never seen it as a listed rule.
-
There were few fun moments for me for at least 2 of the three frames. And the second frame saw a little bit of fun mostly due to us getting lucky, and going a bit off orders.
The Allied command decided not to use close escort and use fighter sweeps instead. This only works if your sweeping fighters actually come across the enemy. If they don't your strike packages get bounced. Which we were. Repeatedly. We were never bounced on our way to or from the target. Fighters were always waiting for us at the target. They don't even need to wait that high. They know we have to come down to dive bomb.
In both frame 1 & 3, we were bounced by defending fighters as we came on target. Once bounced it was over and done with. Heavy birds caught low against zeroes and KI's with no high cover. Forgetaboutit. Yeah usually we were able to get our bombs away but you're getting pounced on as you pull up from your dive.
Carrier placement was also a problem. Carriers were placed pretty much in their default starting locations. Not like everyone doesn't know where those are. Third frame we were set to launch INSIDE axis radar. Carrier was right off shore. Would have been simpler for us to just disembark and march to the target base. :) I exaggerate that last point but still. :)
Were there some kind of restrictions placed on the allies that the rank and file don't know about?
I'm sorry I have to raise the Bulls**t flag here. Yes we took off close to enemy radar this frame, but in all three frames our squadron made it to the target. What happenes once we get there is entirely up to us.
The first frame we ran into every N1K2 that was airborne granted, but we paniced with everyone screaming and scattering different directions at low level making the George pilots job that much easier.
The second frame we did quite well, our biggest problem was people not being able to get their birds safely aboard the CV and up for the second sortie.
The third frame again we got to the target unmolested, we had enemy aircraft engaged below us over the target, My biggest problem was taking ack hits on my bomb run. We lost a couple of guys to flack, early but with the Enemy CAP already engaged we should have gotten in and out regrouping and then be able to fight effectively. Once our ord was dropped we had lost two to flak one blew himeslf up with his own bomb, one to enemy fighters. Guys should have used their energy to climb above the fight regroup and fight the enemy. We had too many milling around low level in the ack and in the enemy fighters.
Our biggest problem is our own inexperiance compounded by our own mistakes. We need to worry about the things we can improve on in our operations not complain about Allied planning, or Axis having it easier than us. Until we improve our flying and operations we'll keep having the old problems over and over. I'd also like to point out we flew Axis last FSO and didn't fare any better than this FSO.
I understand your frustration, but our cure is within us, not the FSO Staff, or the Side CIC.
<S>
-
Well said Shifty.
I have never seen so much blatting and whining about set -ups, CiC strats, plane sets, you name it.
Man up Gentlemen. The reality is the Axis might actually win a few now and then.
From my persepective this was one of the most fun FSO's in a while. All three frames saw lots of air combat. (for my Unit).
Shifty is on the right track. All three frames saw my squadron engaging Allied forces that outnumbered us, and often had the advantage of altitude as well, but we came out on top each engagement. The enemy showed no cohesion, tactical deployment, and trickled into the fight one or two planes at a time. The conclusion was forgone.
Also, and I can only speak for the Axis, but Local Kommand was outstanding on our side, with excellant communication, and co-ordination between the squadrons making up the local groups. There was never any doubt, who was where, in what strength, where the targets where, and their situations, etc...That in itself can tip the scales for the side that employs it to the best benefit.
A most enjoyable Operation.
Well done Staff, and all.
-
For a future scenario like this one, I wouldn't mind seeing the rules adjusted so that pilots who lose their cv have time to fly home to a land base (provided that they have the fuel).
The enemy...trickled into the fight one or two planes at a time.
I'm still scratching my head over that. :confused: We frequently saw 1 or 2 allied pilots break away from their main group and fly into superior numbers of enemy. Maybe it was frustration, but pilot discipline made a decisive difference from my point of view.
Good luck for the next event everyone. :salute
-
Hey that's the down side to command. You get torn apart in the AAR. :)
I'm still scratching my head over that. :confused: We frequently saw 1 or 2 allied pilots break away from their main group and fly into superior numbers of enemy. Maybe it was frustration, but pilot discipline made a decisive difference from my point of view.
It's possible that squadron took it on themselves to assign a couple of their own guys to escort duty. There were no allied squadrons assigned to cover the strike groups. Those groups were expected to get to and from the targets on their own, and the returning strike groups were then supposed to CAP for the carriers.
There was not a lot of pre planning on how to get the groups to and from the targets. Not in frame 1 & 3 anyway. In 1 the groups came in one at a time and got torn up one at a time by the defenders. Frame two though was different. The attack groups we were with in frame 2 stayed together on their way in, and on their way out. Worked it out together at the squadron level. Frame 3 for us was like frame one. Hit the target in small waves, with no real plan to get out. From the outside looking in the plan seemed to be mass as many attackers on the target as possible in the hopes that the bombs will get through and the majority of the pilots will escape to get home.
To say it a different way. The downfall for the allies was that not enough effort was put into protecting their assets. Most of the planning went into how to destroy the axis. Defense wins championships. :)
-
The 13MPG wants to thank all of the special events teams for the event. Also want to thank The DFA, Air Mafia, and others for fillin our slots..
Had Alot of fun frame 3. Our Zeke's dove onto c76 first after Akamixer spotted the ship. We lost a couple to compression issues on our dives :rolleyes:. Made some decent hits and returned to rearm on land. Salute to those guys for rearming and finishing that cv off. Salute Mayo, 007Rusty, and all the other 13mpg who finished the job.
Thanks Guys. TUK151 :aok
-
The FSO has grown to something that we all look forward to. Just as any game however I think steps should be taken to protect it and make it better. Small things like dropping bombs on take off to get around the rules is one of a host of small things that can make the game lopsided.
I know that this is getting long but I think one more thing might make future carrier ops interesting. What if the FSO had 2 phases. The first phase would start 1 hour early with the CiC's taking control of the groups and driving them to where they wanted staying inside say a 4 sector box. Phase 2 would start the normal time with planes actually having to find their target.
Dropping bombs on take-off has been done for as many years as I've been a part of FSO. If a squad drops its ordinance on take off, thats less the other side has to deal with in the first wave as attackers. Hardly has much effect on the frame.
I am a Setup CM and you are talking my language with CV's. Think about this with your suggestion for a minute....How many of the near 500 weekly players of FSO come in the arena on the wrong country? I would bet the number is high. Placing CV's anytime other than the last wee minutes before take off would most certainly give away their positions. Is that a fair alternative? No.
$.02
-
Small things like dropping bombs on take off to get around the rules is one of a host of small things that can make the game lopsided.
You seem to be misunderstanding the point of this practice.
Bombs are armed and dropped on the runway so that you can complete secondary objectives with them, since you can not change your loadout on the rearm pad and you can not replane in FSO.
-
That is why I suggested stopping the practice. If FSO is supposed to be closer to being historic and not MA, then please explain where dropping bombs on take-off makes any sense? What the practice does is to allow for fighter sweeps with follow up bombing runs. To me the fact that the staff does it means that there is a weakness in the set-ups or that the seniors recognize an easier path to winning. technically a side can attack with a single plane with the rest dropping bombs and flying sweep. After all enemy are cleared you simply re-arm with bombs and attack un-opposed. Yes it's legal but it's also gaming the game. The CiC's that try to do the right thing and follow orders get their buts kicked for doing so. I as others here have been in the military and can tell you that there is no armed force in the world that would go through the trouble and expense of arming any platform, and then disposing the ordinance after taking off or leaving port. Call it legal, call it whatever, I call it bs and think it should stop. Think of someone running around with a 45 shooting pilots, not realistic either, but possible in the game, so why ban it?
As far as players being in the wrong country, that's a game thing too. It seems like staff has been on top of that weakness in the game and has done a good job adjusting. It has nothing to do with CV location and making attack squads work for a living.
-
I don't think that is circumventing the rules. Never seen it as a listed rule.
Never seen people runnign around with 45 shooting pilots on pad as listed rule in the past. Didn't make it right.
-
So you're saying it's unhistorical for a fighter to take off lightly armed, come back, get rearmed, and go off on a different mission this time with bombs???
:uhoh :confused:
Duuuude.... That's all I gotta say. Duuuude...
-
Never seen people runnign around with 45 shooting pilots on pad as listed rule in the past. Didn't make it right.
Sorry, People have been dropping bombs on the tarmac since FSO was called Tour of Duty. It is a valid tactic here in FSO and is used by both sides.
Rambo Chute Tactics and dropping ordinance are two totally different things, If we had the ability to change ordinance on rearm then maybe I could see an issue, but we can't, so the arming of bombs and then dropping them is going to be a normal routine until that aspect is changed.
-
That is why I suggested stopping the practice. If FSO is supposed to be closer to being historic and not MA, then please explain where dropping bombs on take-off makes any sense? What the practice does is to allow for fighter sweeps with follow up bombing runs. To me the fact that the staff does it means that there is a weakness in the set-ups or that the seniors recognize an easier path to winning. technically a side can attack with a single plane with the rest dropping bombs and flying sweep. After all enemy are cleared you simply re-arm with bombs and attack un-opposed. Yes it's legal but it's also gaming the game. The CiC's that try to do the right thing and follow orders get their buts kicked for doing so. I as others here have been in the military and can tell you that there is no armed force in the world that would go through the trouble and expense of arming any platform, and then disposing the ordinance after taking off or leaving port. Call it legal, call it whatever, I call it bs and think it should stop. Think of someone running around with a 45 shooting pilots, not realistic either, but possible in the game, so why ban it?
As far as players being in the wrong country, that's a game thing too. It seems like staff has been on top of that weakness in the game and has done a good job adjusting. It has nothing to do with CV location and making attack squads work for a living.
This is like saying that "en passant" in chess is gaming the game. Look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En_passant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En_passant) Dropping bombs on takeoff is a way to simulate what could actually happen in combat, i.e. you go up without bombs, come back and load bombs, and leave again.
Both are a way to keep the rules of the game the same to what preceded them.
-
Have to agree. Ham that's not gaming the game at all.
-
Also keep in mind that taking bombs and dropping them, handicaps those rides as it cost around 8 mph in max speed. As discussed above, it's a compromise brought about by the limitations of the game, and allows for continued action for those that survive past the 60 minute mark.
-
:salute Sir cant wait for the next round :aok
The 13MPG wants to thank all of the special events teams for the event. Also want to thank The DFA, Air Mafia, and others for fillin our slots..
Had Alot of fun frame 3. Our Zeke's dove onto c76 first after Akamixer spotted the ship. We lost a couple to compression issues on our dives :rolleyes:. Made some decent hits and returned to rearm on land. Salute to those guys for rearming and finishing that cv off. Salute Mayo, 007Rusty, and all the other 13mpg who finished the job.
Thanks Guys. TUK151 :aok
-
It's always been this way and it's necessary since we can't tower out and don't have a group of load toads waiting for us at the hot ramp to load our next mission requirements.
-
Also keep in mind that taking bombs and dropping them, handicaps those rides as it cost around 8 mph in max speed. As discussed above, it's a compromise brought about by the limitations of the game, and allows for continued action for those that survive past the 60 minute mark.
Not for those rides that have permanent bomb/dt racks, e.g. the Ki-61, F4U, etc. It's typically the German fighters that are handicapped after dropping bombs, e.g. 109 series, 190A5/8/D9 (not the 152 or F8), because they didn't have racks for bombs as a standard configuration.
-
I think almost all American planes are always equipped with racks, beside the P39 and P40.
-
That's good to know. My testing has always been with LW rides.
-
Sorry, People have been dropping bombs on the tarmac since FSO was called Tour of Duty.
Yup. About 8 years for those of you who have not been around long.
I can remember reading stories of a squads flying out, spotting targets of opportunity, returning to base and then head out in the same day with bombs and or rockets for some more fun that involved ground pounding.
Hamltnblue if the CM's had the tools they might stop that practice, but currently with one life players are stuck with what ever ordnance they took off with in the first place. If you took off with bombs you get more when you rearm, if you had none, you get none when you rearm. If you tower out and rearm you are breaking the rules. CM's track lives and if players towered out to change ordnance it would greatly increase their time spent pouring over the logs to make sure players used only one life. CM's work with what tools they have. Dropping ordnance for an initial sortie so you can have the option to use them later is not only reasonable, but understandable.
Oh, I think the plane set was spot on. :aok
-
Anyone remember when the "RJO" was renamed from the FSO? Originaly the FSO was the name GD used to form the Rook joint operation's. I remember the post's in the squad forum when we were asked to stop using the FSO name & even more when HTC asked us not to run the FSO/RJO event on Sunday night's :)
Those were the day's!
MGD
-
Oh, I think the plane set was spot on. :aok
Agreed. F6f is a hell of a ride.
-
In the right hands........ :noid
-
i.e. "Not Krusty's"
-
Agreed. F6f is a hell of a ride.
It sucks when there isn't a base or carrier to land at. :salute
-
It sucks when there isn't a base or carrier to land at. :salute
Agreed, but hardly indicative of a plane set imbalance. <S>
-
On a side note I think something that is definitely needed is a how to guide for CiC's. It should include everything from a check list from start to finish of the week, a list of commands not usually used and possibly not known to the group (such as carrier movement and control), and anything else that might help in the process.
Already started a couple of weeks ago. At this stage, its merely a shell, but by the end of the year, I hope to have this fully fleshed out and completed. You can take a look at the outline (which may expand as we go). Thanks to ForHim and the rest of the CM staff for their effort and input.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/FSO_CiC_Training
-
Cool beans Stoney.