Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zazen13 on August 28, 2008, 10:50:24 PM
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I have been thinking about this for a few weeks. I would really love to know the rationale behind it from the perspective of HTC. Why not offer a boxed set? Put it the major stores like Best Buy and Circuit City. We have some great artists that could do up a very nice three flapped box art. The price could include one month free subscription.
The problem I have is recruiting people I know and work with in real life. They are the baby boomers with more time and money right now and they are the children of the men who fought in WWII. These types of people don't like buying stuff over the internet, especially being asked for your credit card by a company most don't know.. It would be much easier if I could take Tom over to Best Buy after work and show him the game on the shelf where he can check out the flap art and read the captions...It's then 10 times more like he'll plunk down the 50 bucks and buy the game and enjoy his free month to find his new hobby.
By offering a boxed version it legitimizes the product in the eyes of the consumer. Without a boxed set, a game is like a Movie that went straight to DVD in their mind. Also, the demographics of the buyers of a strictly internet based product are probably quite different from those shop around in Best Buy for highend electronics.
Well ,just food for thought... Maybe give it a try before another marketing attempt on History Channel
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More than likely would need to get the AI working to their satisfaction before going out on that kind of level.
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It doesn't have to contain Combat Tour. Just a nicely done Boxed Set of AHII with a poster of WWII fighters and a free month subscription. Then when Combat Tour comes out it can be added as an expansion.
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I think they should bundle the game with one of the better joysticks. Or all of them.
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Wouldn't they lose money off of it? Unless they are paying a sub still...
EDIT: Oh I thought you meant something like Call of Duty or Flight Sim.
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I think they should bundle the game with one of the better joysticks. Or all of them.
Yea, I that was done at some point, you could get a 50-100$ gift certificate for CH Products
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More than likely would need to get the AI working to their satisfaction before going out on that kind of level.
Agreed. If I went to Best Buy to get a boxed game and all I got were circling drones and a P-51 vs P-51 mission I'd feel ripped off and I'm in that demo.
With a large variety of fully developed AI missions that would provide offline immersion with the lure to play on-line then it would probably work, but that would also require finding an adequate distributor and having the money available to support the product at retail. This isn't a small undertaking. I spent 20+ years in the entertainment industry (consumer music and video) in both retail and wholesale and know fully the challenges this would present.
If not careful, the product returns alone could bury the company.
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Wouldn't they lose money off of it? Unless they are paying a sub still...
It won't change the subscription. It's a marketing thing. They get a gift certificate for a CH stick, a month's subscription, a beautiful poster of WWII fighter planes and well written and bound manual. The big difference is, adults with a lot of disposable income see that stuff and buy it in a store because they enjoy the genre, but aren't necessarily into serfing the net and looking up an obscure game made by a company they've never heard of. Then has to blind punch in their CC# online to try it. Trust me, make a Boxed version that can be held, the flaps and captions read, it will be bought in person by someone who can always afford a nice computer and the gear required.
We simply don't attract/get a lot of new customers along these lines and I think this is one reason. AW never had a problem with it, but they also sold Boxed Sets.
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AW did it with some missions included
The average joe would want to try it - if he/she enjoyed -then would click to a link to online game it - its the way of the online game industry
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Eagl has a valid point. Zazen does too. It's a 50/50 chance. What they should do, is when downloading the game, throw in a bunch of non-bugged, tested and certified AI missions that players have made. No one's going to want to do Pony vs Pony. I understand that they did it quickly and all, but if they see where the AI can do un-real things, they will return it. We need to fully develop the AI first, and maybe update Offline Practice a bit too, having the ability to change the drone's planes, speed, and altitudes. Zazen is right, most guys won't surf the internet all day looking for it, but if they stop into a store and it catches their eye, they will try it, and if they think it's good, plug in their CC number and will probably be hooked. It's a good marketing tool, but the game still needs some work before putting this into play.
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Great idea, Zazen.
The legitimacy of the box is the critical factor here. Obviously putting money down into printing boxes, CD's, posters is an upfront cost, and can be considered a gamble. But think about the untapped consumer base: we all know that guy who, near his computer, has boxes and boxes of random games, some opened, some not, and of no discernible taste in genre. He buys games that catch his eye in the store. In fact, it's not just that guy, its thousands of guys. While they all don't own as many games, they all follow the same buying pattern, and buying philosophy "If it's good, it's in the store. If I see it in the store and it looks fun, I'll buy it"
Many people don't even know a game like this exists! 80 or so WWII vehicles, all human controlled, 24/7 action...people drool over this type of stuff. They end up playing the Battlefield series and CoD because those are what they see in the stores to satiate their urge for this type of stuff.
You might argue that HTC wants to keep a more "pure" customer base, and avoid the masses of completely inexperienced players who would come pounding on the server doors. I would argue that this game already has a great system that eliminates players who won't be a good "fit for the game. It's called getting the plane off the ground. People who are best suited for Battlefield games will find out within 5 minutes of playing this game that it's not right for them. They may return the game, yes, and then that would be no different than someone not subcribing after a free two week trial. But don't underestimate the large percentage of those who are well enough off with money and simply won't be bothered to return it. That's profit right there that would never have been made by the two week trial system. And of course the increased profit from a larger market goes without saying.
Making the game more accessible to the "traditional" buyers is only a good thing.
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Aside from the extra development work required don't slight the business realities of introducing a retail product.
First of all, no major retailer is going to buy directly from HTC, especially if they are a single product company. The business is too small for them to even bother setting HTC up as a vendor, therefore HTC needs distribution. No distributor want's to deal with a single product company either. If they ship the product to retail and pay HTC within a reasonable time (say 60-90 days) they are exposed to all future product returns without additional products coming down the pipe to offset that exposure. So in the real world, HTC has to fund thier product for 12-18 months without payment from retail or distribution until everyone is satisfied that the product has sold through or been returned.
Now on to selling through. Putting a product on a shelf doesn't guarantee sales. To bring in a new product, the retailer wants to see (and so does the wholesaler) commitment from the manufacturer. They want to see general market advertising as well as funding to support the retail FSI's, endcaps and/or other programs. With no skin in the game there won't be much support and little chance of success.
There's still other issues/considerations but there are the biggest initial hurdles.
As you might be able to see, the financial investment by HTC to roll a product out to 200+ Best Buy stores or 1300+ Wal-Mart stores in sufficient quantities to be meaningful to those retailers is huge and comes with no guarantees.
If it works it's a marketing coup. If not it might be the end of HTC.
[EDIT] I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. I've been there, done that. Just telling it like it is.
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the downside risk is someone buying the game.. using the free month (or part thereof)... returning it, or better/worse yet, exchanging it ("it didn't download properly, can i get another of the same?")..
wash rinse repeat ad infinitum... or until the store(s) wise up to the miserly cheat.
so there's a very real financial risk... but there's potential for great reward, too.
i agree the "offline" stuff would have to be up to snuff first.
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If it works it's a marketing coup. If not it might be the end of HTC.
HT could always pawn his rv-8
:noid
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You have to get publishers involved and that's a whole mess, it also takes away some of the control HTC would have because then it's the Publisher releasing the game. HTC would never get it in stores with out one of the big publishers, the big boys have all that stuff locked up real well. The only real option, would be to do some deals with companies like Saitek who already have product placement and give the game away on CD with the 2 week trial in their joystick packages.
Better yet don't even give away the CD, just have a nice fancy looking coupon included with the joy sticks with the link to D/L the game. I'm surprised HTC doesn't do this with CH products because at the very least that's a somewhat smaller company, that a deal like this could likely be done with. Maybe give a promo code so they get 3 weeks free or something.
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Yeah its a huge mess for a small time operation to try and get their stuff on the shelves. There was a time when "shareware" and "freeware" CD-ROMs could get on the shelves in a huge bin and sold for a dollar or two each, but those days are long gone.
That's why I think making a deal with joystick manufacturers is the best idea. You're going to need a joystick to enjoy Aces High anyways. These guys already have distribution deals. Get them to put Aces High on their driver / manual CD, or give them a CD of your own to include in the box, and bam... lots more potential customers with very little risk and no costs other than what it takes to bribe the joystick manufacturers to play along.
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Aside from the extra development work required don't slight the business realities of introducing a retail product.
First of all, no major retailer is going to buy directly from HTC, especially if they are a single product company. The business is too small for them to even bother setting HTC up as a vendor, therefore HTC needs distribution. No distributor want's to deal with a single product company either. If they ship the product to retail and pay HTC within a reasonable time (say 60-90 days) they are exposed to all future product returns without additional products coming down the pipe to offset that exposure. So in the real world, HTC has to fund thier product for 12-18 months without payment from retail or distribution until everyone is satisfied that the product has sold through or been returned.
Now on to selling through. Putting a product on a shelf doesn't guarantee sales. To bring in a new product, the retailer wants to see (and so does the wholesaler) commitment from the manufacturer. They want to see general market advertising as well as funding to support the retail FSI's, endcaps and/or other programs. With no skin in the game there won't be much support and little chance of success.
There's still other issues/considerations but there are the biggest initial hurdles.
As you might be able to see, the financial investment by HTC to roll a product out to 200+ Best Buy stores or 1300+ Wal-Mart stores in sufficient quantities to be meaningful to those retailers is huge and comes with no guarantees.
If it works it's a marketing coup. If not it might be the end of HTC.
[EDIT] I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade. I've been there, done that. Just telling it like it is.
And unfortunately, that is the reality for small independent game developers.
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And besides, do you think that AH could cope with potentially thousands of new subscribers? From what i can see (sorry if this is wrong Mr HiTech) the capacity just isn't there. For example, whenever Titanic Tuesday comes on, people constantly complain of warping.
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And besides, do you think that AH could cope with potentially thousands of new subscribers? From what i can see (sorry if this is wrong Mr HiTech) the capacity just isn't there. For example, whenever Titanic Tuesday comes on, people constantly complain of warping.
Skuzzy has repeatedly posted that Titanic Tuesday does not tax the servers at all.
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Might not tax the servers but how about the connection into just 1 server?
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I'm certain the server has more than enough bandwidth to handle whatever is thrown at it. Skuzzy is smart that way. :)
The way I see it, marketing the game in a store is a bad idea from a support standpoint. You would have people that have never played an online game purchasing the program and asking all sorts of basic questions. Much more than there is now.
The way it is marketed now gives some assurance that the user knows how to access the internet, knows how to download a file and knows how to install the game and/or updates to their computer. That eliminates the very basics right there.
(And I'm in that Baby Boomer group mentioned in the original post. So watch it! ;) )
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When they released a boxed version of WB after Wildbill took over it had "marketing committee" written all over it. The hype made people think they were getting way more than they actually did, with the idea that they would buy an online subscription and try out the arenas.
I agree with some of the others that you'd have to include CT so that it was a stand-alone sim with the option to fly online if you're going to make a boxed version.
As for baby boomers not being comfortable with the internet, my experience is otherwise. Maybe that's from living most of my life near Silicon Valley?
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As for baby boomers not being comfortable with the internet, my experience is otherwise. Maybe that's from living most of my life near Silicon Valley?
Ya think?!?
I live in the deep south. There's a lot of military types here with long, distinguished family military traditions, especially in the US Army and Air Force. But, they tend to be very leery of making purely online purchases from an unknown company without the benefit of some sort of "hands-on" product they can evaluate in a concrete way . Not only that, but they aren't the types that would be surfing the net looking for a game to begin with in order to stumble upon AH accidentally. They would definitely notice it and pick it up in a store though. This game and company are actually pretty obscure and not overly easy to discover or find out about if you don't already know what you are looking for. Most of us aren't objective about this fact, as we've been involved in the genre for many years. But, I have many Air Force friends, pilots, test pilots, navigators and the like that have never heard of HTC/AH, but are intrigued when I tell them about it.
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Might not tax the servers but how about the connection into just 1 server?
Most likely it is taxing the FEs
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To make AHII sell as a boxed game, it must become entirely viable as a stand-alone sim.
To do this would involve adding a ton of stuff to do off-line, improving the graphics, tweaking some elements to be more realistic, adding, um, video and storylines, other "candy", and otherwise massively revamping.
People playing AHII tend to be HARD-core into either the ACM, GVing, or the land-grabbing game, or all three. We don't give a darn about graphics when we get into a dogfight. We don't give a darn about the historical nature of what we are doing except once a week on Fridays. This is the BEST ACM sim out there but not nessecarily the best "immersion" sim. And the latter is what would sell on store shelves.
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To make AHII sell as a boxed game, it must become entirely viable as a stand-alone sim.
I do not believe that. There's lots of games on the shelf that are purely or almost exlusively for online play.
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I do not believe that. There's lots of games on the shelf that are purely or almost exlusively for online play.
How much competition did Air Warrior have when it was free with the purchase of a CH products yoke?
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K, one problem with these idiers. There is a cost with doing all this, especially when you add a free subscription or $100 gift certificate. That is like a year of free subscriptions. Then, HT may have to add some more people for support etc. So, how long does the average subscriber stay hooked? Maybe HT has figured out all this and it may not be worth the trouble
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K, one problem with these idiers. There is a cost with doing all this, especially when you add a free subscription or $100 gift certificate. That is like a year of free subscriptions. Then, HT may have to add some more people for support etc. So, how long does the average subscriber stay hooked? Maybe HT has figured out all this and it may not be worth the trouble
HTC already has the infrastructure in place to handle a lot more people. The gift certificate idea would be considered under the assumption that CH would comp or at least subsidize it as a joint marketing venture to increase sales of its product.
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HTC already has the infrastructure in place to handle a lot more people. The gift certificate idea would be considered under the assumption that CH would comp or at least subsidize it as a joint marketing venture to increase sales of its product.
LOL! Knowing Chuck Hayes, CH won't subsidize squat. He never did it when I worked for him and I don't think he'll start doing it now.
While HTC might have the infrastructure in place to handle more customers does he really have one in place for increased employee numbers? He's going to have to create a dedicated support center to handle all of the tech support calls not to mention account/billing calls. HTC support in its current state would get easily swamped by the number of calls.
Also, as Dedalos pointed out, what about the costs? Not just the costs associated with bundling your product with another companies but also the costs associated with having to increase your employee base. Then there is also the development costs, marketing, manufacturing and distribution.
The reality in the gaming industry is that it is very difficult for small independent game developers to get their product out to the retail masses. It's another reason why digital distribution is far more appealing to the small developers and why a lot go that route.
Quite a few of you really seem to think that all HTC needs to do is print up a few thousand boxes and CDs and just drop them off at retailers to be sold and that's it.
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The Linux distribution sets are a good model for retail AHII.
The packaging cost from a firm (Silicon Valley) familiar with software packaging could be kept down, reducing the expense which can be recouped in the sale, and the free service term would cause no cash outlay on the part of htc.
With htc's usual IP address tracking, and an account password for the one-time free term included in each set, repeated retail returns would have no benefit to the kids trying that approach as an IP attempting to use the free service more then once would be denied access regardless of password. The box could be freely given to anyone else and the standard 2 weeks free trial would be in effect at any second IP if accepted as the IP of a new customer.
I do agree that some caned practice missions would need to be included.
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Why do you think EA is so succesful? It's certainly not the quality of their products.
They have deep pockets, a continual flow of new product, a huge mass market advertising budget and know how to play at retail.
HTC is the polar opposite. They have a quality product appealing to a specialized niche market and are distributed directly to their consumers via the Internet.
No doubt both are succesful but what you're suggesting is a fundamental change in the business plan and culture of HTC. HT has clearly stated that they wish to remain a small, highly dedicated company. This would change all that.
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To make AHII sell as a boxed game, it must become entirely viable as a stand-alone sim.
No. Just look at the broad MMO market (cause AH2 is a MMO, just one that's very unlike the others, who are all MMORPGs). They're all on the shelf at Wal Mart, but have no non-online gameplay.
That's missing the point though, those games have huge budgets, distribution deals, etc, etc, etc. HTC can't afford to do the same thing as them. And besides that, they shouldn't do it, as the games are very different. What you're talking about is hugely expensive. A better cheaper way, which by the way HTC also shouldn't do, would be to go all AOL on everyone and send a CD in the mail to everyone in the country.
But the fact is you need a joystick, and good one, to play this game. And now-a-days, very few people have even a bad one.
But I've already posted that idea twice now.
My other idea is that HTC should put print ads in PC gamer magazines. Yes, the kiddie percentage will increase. But if they can buy the mag, they have the money to buy a joystick. And if there's gamer mags that specificly target MMORPG gamers, they should put the ads in those mags. The roleplayers will be your future scenario players. The PvPers are DYING right now to play a game that takes skill instead of gear, and AH is just such a game, only MMORPG players have never heard of it.
Put this simple ad in World of Warcraft Gamer Monthly (if such a mag exists):
"Tired of Arena matches where you have no chance to beat the other team because of your class or their gear? Want to play a game that actually takes SKILL to win? Fly Aces High!"
And HTC will get all kinds of new subscribers practically overnight.
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I have been thinking about this for a few weeks. I would really love to know the rationale behind it from the perspective of HTC. Why not offer a boxed set? Put it the major stores like Best Buy and Circuit City. We have some great artists that could do up a very nice three flapped box art. The price could include one month free subscription.
Why?
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My other idea is that HTC should put print ads in PC gamer magazines.
Yep and continue their commercials on the Military Channel and maybe expand them to the History and Discovery Channels as well. HTC would probably drum up more customers that way than they would with a box version and at a dramatic cost reduction.
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It doesn't have to contain Combat Tour. Just a nicely done Boxed Set of AHII with a poster of WWII fighters and a free month subscription. Then when Combat Tour comes out it can be added as an expansion.
They could pre-order Combat Tour with a 2 week guaranted delivery :D
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They could pre-order Combat Tour with a 2 week guaranted delivery :D
hehe
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The post started with the idea of boxed sets in the super stores and computer stores.
I can see this as a major undertaking too major at the moment with out good Ai missions.
But what if there was a boxed game with good Ai missions and it was sold at Air shows?
IF HTC had a stand with some linked computers for lan play and some playing Ai missions then once the bug had bittern they
could buy the box set and take it with them?
It wouldn't have to be a as large a undertaking as puting it in the big shops but it is a idea to go with.
Some well apointed box sets with a good show stand at a airshow could boost the memership numbers.
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If the problem is that people are leary of giving a credit card number to an small unknown online company, I'd point out that the HT home page says you can try the program without a credit card. The whole point to AH is online interactivity, so sooner or later they are going to have to give a credit card number to a small online company, even if they bought a boxed version.
If the problem is visibility then I think that, as already mentioned, advertisements in game magazines, and maybe even warbird flight magazines, are a good choice. A flyer inside joysticks is probably a good idea too. But if the joystick box had a small AH image and a "free flight sim" offer blurb on it, I think that might cause negative reaction as AH doesn't really stand alone apart from the online game play and buyers would feel "cheated". So I am not sure that route for getting AH visibility in big box stores would work out well.
Air Warrior did sell a boxed version (I've got it right here), but I think that for AH to try that would probably be a big mistake for the reasons mentioned by BaldEagl and others.
I have a question. How big a potential market is there for AH do you think? I don't think you can compare it to CoD or Battlefield:xxxx. Aren't those mostly FPS games? It's more comparable to IL2-Sturmovik isn't it? How big a market is IL2?
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Nothing irritates me more than buying a boxed set only to find out I can't play until I've downloaded a huge patch.
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IF HTC had a stand with some linked computers for lan play and some playing Ai missions then once the bug had bittern they
could buy the box set and take it with them?
It wouldn't have to be a as large a undertaking as puting it in the big shops but it is a idea to go with.
Some well apointed box sets with a good show stand at a airshow could boost the memership numbers.
Great idea roger.
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Hi everyone. I'm DMBEAR, and I'm a recovering consoleholic. I used to only play games on Nintendo,PS2, etc. Just like my love life, I was only playing with myself. I never played an on-line game before AcesHigh. Now i don't own a console. Luckily, I had a brother who's been trying to get me to fly on-line since Warbids. Besides him there is no way I would have even tried the game.
I don't think the commercials do the game justice, but a display in store could. Think of a monitor with an on-line pilots view, the text buffer running(obviously not tuned to 200), and a headset. The first 20 seconds would capture a bunch of people. :aok
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Honestly, from what I've heard here, a boxed set is a 50/50 chance, and it'd be a chance HTC would have to be willing to take. As people have said, and now I'm leaning towards, more advertisements on TV, websites, and such would benefit the company more than taking a chance at boxed sets would.
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Wouldnt a free cd with 2 weeks sub put in mags like WW2, and Aviation work ok?
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Wouldn't a free cd with 2 weeks sub put in mags like WW2, and Aviation work ok?
Nice idea but really the market of people that would play this and read real aviation magazines is tiny and I doubt they would have a CD for a game attached to their mag. You could use some PC Aviator mags, but those guys are use to looking at FS9/FSX screenshots. You'd have a bigger response using a small banner add on a porn site. Cheaper too. :lol
AH is great but it's just too small a target for marketing to be cost effective. Especially with the current graphics, most players are drawn by the latest and greatest graphics first, hard sell for an online game when they compare it to their favourite offline ride. Yes we know about the community,gameplay etc but eye candy is unfortunately what draws people in and makes the first impression.
Plus PC games are now completely dominated by WoW and Sims, most new titles are now cross platform or they don't get built. You only have to walk into a local game store to see the ever shrinking size of the PC Shelf compared to the ever growing consoles shelf. Only PC games at my local store are all in the bargin bin, bar a few first person shooters,Sims addons and WoW.
I wouldn't be suprised if the next version of MSFS was also X-Box ready...(http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL1132/3985165/18938532/328017757.jpg)
<S>...-Gixer
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I haven't seen Zazen13 wrong yet.............999000<---------goes to vegas to place his bet!
<S>999000
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Wouldnt a free cd with 2 weeks sub put in mags like WW2, and Aviation work ok?
Or get it in those CDs that come in gaming magazines like Game Informer or PC Gamer.
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I haven't seen Zazen13 wrong yet.............999000<---------goes to vegas to place his bet!
<S>999000
There is a first time for everything.
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