Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on October 02, 2000, 01:54:00 PM
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I have been thinking about how perk planes should be done. What should be perked and what should not. I have come to the conclusion that certain aircraft we already have should be perked as well as some that are being requested. What will happen to the Fw190A-5 and Spitfire MkIX if the Fw190D-9 and Spitfire MkXIV are introduced as non-perks? Just look at the Spitfire MkVb and Bf109F-4 to get an idea. They'll fall into disuse.
The following is a run down of what I would like to see. It includes aircraft that are not yet in AH and have not been announced by HTC. The categories are:
Bonus: Bonus points are awarded for successful actions in this aircraft.
Normal: Normal aircraft can be used at no cost, but successful actions do not have a bonus points.
Perk: Perk aircraft cost some points in order to use.
Ultra Perk Ultra Perk aircraft cost many points in order to use them.
Bonus Units
F4F = Bonus (Not yet added)
Hurricane MkI = Bonus (Not yet added)
Spitfire MkIa = Bonus (Not yet added)
Bf109E-3 = Bonus (Not yet added)
Bf110C-4 = Bonus (Not yet added)
P-40B = Bonus (Not yet added)
P-39 = Bonus (Not yet added)
A6M2 = Bonus (Not yet added)
A5M = Bonus (Not yet added)
Ki-45 = Bonus (Not yet added)
C.202 = Bonus
I-16 = Bonus (Not yet added)
D.520 = Bonus (Not yet added)
Blenheim = Bonus (Not yet added)
Ju87B = Bonus (Not yet added)
He111 = Bonus (Not yet added)
G4M = Bonus (Not yet added)
C-47 = Bonus
M-3 = Bonus
Normal Units
F4U-1A = Normal
F6F-5 = Normal
TBF = Normal
SBD = Normal (Not yet added)
Hurricane MkIIc = Normal (Not yet added)
Spitfire MkVb = Normal
Spitfire MkIX = Normal
Fw190A-5 = Normal
Fw190A-8 = Normal
Bf109F-4 = Normal
Bf109G-2 = Normal
Bf109G-6 = Normal
Bf110G = Normal (Not yet added)
Me410 = Normal (Not yet added)
Mustang MkI/P-51A = Normal (Not yet added)
P-51B = Normal (Not yet added) <Needs to be added>
P-47C = Normal (Not yet added) <Needs to be added>
P-40C = Normal (Not yet added)
P-38F = Normal (Not yet added)
P-38H = Normal (Not yet added) <Needs to be added>
A6M3 = Normal (Not yet added)
A6M5b = Normal
Ki-61 Ib = Normal (Not yet added)
La-5N = Normal
Yak-9U = Normal
C.205 = Normal
Typhoon = Normal
B-17G = Normal
B-25 =
B-26B = Normal
Lancaster = Normal
Ju88A-4 = Normal
SM.79 = Normal (Not yet added)
Pe-2 = Normal (Not yet added)
Il-2 = Normal (Not yet added)
Panzer IV-H = Normal
M3A4 = Normal (Not yet added)
T-34-85 = Normal (Not yet added)
M-16 = Normal
Perk Units
F4U-1C = Perk
Spitfire MkXIV = Perk (Not yet added)
Fw190D-9 (MW50) = Perk (Not yet added)
Bf109G-10 = Perk
P-51D = Perk
P-47D-25 = Perk
P-47D-30 = Perk
P-38L = Perk
N1K2 = Perk
La-7 = Perk (Not yet added)
Tempest MkV = Perk (Not yet added)
B-29A = Perk (Not yet added)
Ar234 = Perk (Not yet added)
Ki-84 = Perk (Not yet added)
Me262A = Perk (Not yet added)
Panther V = Perk (Not yet added)
Ostwind = Perk
Ultra Perk Units
F4U-4 = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
Spitfire MkF.21 = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
Ta152 = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
P-51H = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
P-47N = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
Meteor MkIV = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
P-80 = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
Ki-100 = Ultra Perk (Not yet added)
Under this idea people would be encouraged to fly early war aircraft as well as perform the transport function. It would also have the effect of having the mid-war aircraft form the bulk of the work in the MA. The Fw190A-5 and Spitfire MkIX would not be relegated to the roles of have beens.
What do you guys think?
Sisu
-Karnak
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higher number for the Ki series doesn't neccesarily mean better aircraft, the Ki 84 was superior to the Ki 100.
Btw Me 262 is also better than Meteor...
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(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/Stab%20JG77.gif)
Stab/Jagdgeschwader 77
"Herzas"
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 10-02-2000).]
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Nath-BDP,
I did a more time based system. I figured two things about the Me262, A) That I should give some credit to the Germans and B) that the LW fans would squeal like stuck pigs if I had it some other way.
From what I've read, the Ki-100 was better than the Ki-84, if the opposite is true then they should be reversed.
Sisu
-Karnak
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P51B non perk and P51D perk?...
P51B was lighter, better fighter than D version. If you are going to perk the 51, perk ALL of them, or let all of them alone.
Of course that will make P47s, Fw190D9s and spits XIVs normal planes, too.
It is a good idea, karnak...but I doubt it will work.
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<--- gets on fire suit and smears gel liberally.
In my opinion there is no need for perk aircraft. If the player is having a great streak, fine. Why make it easier for that player to make kills. Just leave planes available for all players. Or if a perk must be added make it a weaker plane like the Brewster Buffalo.
<loads fire extinguisher.
Mav
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Originally posted by Maverick:
<--- gets on fire suit and smears gel liberally.
In my opinion there is no need for perk aircraft. If the player is having a great streak, fine. Why make it easier for that player to make kills. Just leave planes available for all players. Or if a perk must be added make it a weaker plane like the Brewster Buffalo.
<loads fire extinguisher.
Mav
So you want to punish everyone who doesn't want to fly very late-war aircraft? This is why we need a perk system; to prevent people from using Ta-152s, P-47Ns, and Spit XIVs, on every single flight. You think the whining is bad now? Just wait until HT throws in a P-51H or a Tempest V and doesn't perk it. You'll see every hard-core pilot here screaming his lungs out about it.
This is a bad recipie for disaster, Mav.
Karnak, nice work but it needs some further tinkering. I can see where you're coming from, and that you're trying to get more early-war aircraft here. By using your system as it stands, that's what you'll do. However, perking aircraft like P-51Ds or P-47Ds isn't a good thing. They're good planes, just not bad enough to perk. P-51Hs and P-47Ns should be perked, as should the Me-262, Ta-152, and Spit XIV.
Basically anything that will out-perform typical aircraft flown, or that might seriously upset the main should get perked. An example:
P-51D and Fw-190D9 are nearly on even terms, so neither should get perked. However, if you throw a P-51H against that same Dora it'll be a hands-down P51 victory. The aircraft itself is the problem, because it'll out-perform alomst anything normally flown in the MA.
A perk plane system is supposed to make it more a measure of pilot skill than aircraft performance. It can't be biased, it can't be done arbitrarily, and it HAS to work perfectly the first time. If anything goes wrong, consider your hearing gone and your patience history. Every whiner will strike the General Discussion board at the same time. They'll scream about anything and anything until everyone, maybe even HT, has had enough.
I'd change it around a bit, personally. Ultra-Perks are aircraft like Me-163s, He-162s, Me-262s, Ta-152s, SpitXIVs, etc... Those are obvious; the rest, well. You're trying to turn most of the future plane-set into one giant perk system. Don't. There should be very few aircraft perked, or the MA will just be Spit Is and Bf-109 Bs. F4Fs or Betty's are the only A/C you can earn points in?
Try this. Take your Bonus Points and Normal Units and stick them together. Now come up with a point system for each aircraft. One number is how many points someone else gets for killing it, the other is a modifier.
Example:
Hurricane IID [twin 40mm cannons] blows up an Ostwind.
Hurricane IID [5 death points, .5 modifier]
Ostwind [10 death points, .3 modifier]
Since the modifier is .5 the Hurricane pilot only gets 5 points for killing the Ostwind. Now if he'd done it with a Bf-110 C4 [25 death points, .6 modifier] he would've gotten 6 points. See? This is the system Pyro had/has in mind for the perk system.
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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I'd save the perks for things that barely saw combat (appeared after 1/1/45) and the ultra-perks should be jets and planes that didn't make it into combat.
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Agree Funked. Also I don't want too many perk planes as that would mean a lot of work going into planes that 95% of us would never get the chance to fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
'Nexx'
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I still personally think the perk system is BS. It gives the very people who *dont* need the best planes, aircraft that will easily outperform 90% of the aircraft in the arena who, by the very nature of the system, will mostly be the 'less able' pilots. Seal clubbing anyone?
As for the augument that eveyone will fly the newer models then so be it, this is exactly what happened in RL.
I can see both sides of the argument, but why introduce a system the keeps most people flying obsoleted planes while the top 10% of pilots get to fly monsters????
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Or if a perk must be added make it a weaker plane like the Brewster Buffalo.
Ohh, gotta start collecting points right away! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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barely saw combat (appeared after 1/1/45)
Barely saw combat? Oh so the war was over at that point?
{Sore point, rant mode=ON}
Tell that to all the families of the men that died at Iwo Jima, Okinawa, the battle for the Phillipines, the B-29 crews over homeland Japan, and all the men who died to Kamikazes.
This attitude of "Oh it didn't really count after the fall of 1944, because the Luftwaffe virtually didnt exist" is pure crap.
Some of the heaviest American casulties came in 1945. And there were continuous airbattles in the Pacific up until the very day of the Surrender, and if you want to push the issue, I will post them here.
Yes, the results of the war were a foregone conclusion, but the Japanese were going to make us pay, and we paid heavily in blood.
To suggest that "it didn't really count" is a serious insult to the men, and their families, that paid the highest price.
{Sore point, rant mode=OFF}
Come on Funked you know better than that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Vermillion,
I see your point, but Funked has a point as well. Most of the fighting in '45 was done in aircraft that were introduced in '43 and '44. Don't make the mistake of thinking that an American airman who was killed in '45 was flying a '45 aircraft, he probably wasn't. Thus we still have the situation where aircraft introduced after 1/1/1945 did not see nearly so much combat as those introduced even by 6/1/1944. It takes a good bit of time after the first production examples roll off the assembly line until there is a substantial number in combat.
We should certainly not forget those who died in the last year of the war though.
Replicant and others,
You guys make some good points about my idea having too many perk planes. Ah well.
Hopefully when the system is introduced it doesn't end up meaning Hangtime in a P-51H, Torque in a F4U-4C and Fishu in a Me262 along with others in their skill rank while the rest of us slog on with 1942 stuff.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I hate the thought of perk planes. My $29.95 is just as good as anyone elses.
Better yet, why not have some method of controlling the spawn rate for each plane?
Base it on production numbers, uberness or something, just don't limit my access to it because I suck or don't fly enough.
Sour
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Everyone's saying it would limit you to fly a certain AC, but by the original post I don't see that.
He was merely suggesting a point system that could give or make you loose points for actions in the newer model planes.
Overall it's not a bad problem as long as you don't have to have x number of points to fly that AC. The only problem with adding vehicles is that everyone flocks to the new AC.
There does need to be some workable solution to it, and all games suffer from it.
I like flying the 109F and 109G2, though I do fly the 109G10 when I think buffs are in the area. Ppl that fly the older model AC are constantly running into much older AC that are no longer a match but highly superior, thus forcing most players to eventually grab a late warbird them selves.
Affecting how your rating's look (by loosing or gaining points) is a nice start, though not the final solution.
Wingnut
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Lucky that 360mph Kawasaki is an ultra-perk, cause that's pretty quick... for a motorcycle.
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I don't like the idea of perked planes. I do, however, think there needs to be some balance between early war planes and late war planes.
The easiest way to do this is to have seperate arenas for each year and allow planes from + or - 1 year. I don't think that this is practical, though.
HTC could limit the arena on a weekly basis (eg Week 1 has planes from 1939/40, week 2 has planes from 42/43, week 3 has planes from 44/45, week 4 has immediate post-war and 'what if' planes), but this would upset those who want to perfect one plane.
Perhaps the best solution would be to amend the scoring, such that a 1945 plane shooting down a 1939 plane does not get as good a kill score as the reverse.
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I like the idea of points to be able to fly certain aircraft.
"Perk" planes would be the unbalancing planes like the 262 and Chog (109G10 perk? Dude it takes SKILL to fly that thing!). "Perk" planes would require the burning of points to fly them, would take away 2 points when you die in them and you gain 1 point per every 2 kills scored when flying them. Give 1 point per kill of perk plane when flying these planes.
"Bonus" planes would give extra point per kill you achieve in them. Logically, the early war planes and other underperforming aircraft like the 202 and P-38C (37mm cannon.. me want! heehee) would be in this category. Say, "Bonus" planes would give 2 points per kill and take away no points when you die in them. Give +3 points if you kill a perk plane in it.
"Normal" planes would give 1 point per kill and would take away 1 point when you die in them.Gain +1 point if you kill a perk plane.
That way we will see a nice balance of early war and late war planes in the arena. And there will be no greater pleasure than shooting down a Perk when in a "bonus" plane!
It could also give people a reason to fight agressively while avoiding death.. that MAY mean less ho'ers and ackrunners (if the ack gets the credit for the kill that is!).
What say ye to this HTC?
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Vermillion I was just throwing a date out there. I'm talking about Ta 152H and stuff like that, planes that fought in miniscule numbers.
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He 163? Us Luftwabbles will be happy with all our late-war toys that Allies can't counter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Flakbait,
You missed the entire point of my post. Spatula and Sourkraut got it. I am not in favor of the idea of "perk planes" at all. I do not think that giving more capable planes to already high performing pilots is justified. It unballances the play and makes it even harder for new people to gain skills.
I have posted before that dividing up the arenas in terms of "era's" would work. That way an early war arena wouldn't have the 51's the 190D's etc. but would only have 1939 to 1941 planes. The same for a mid war, early planes plus 1942 to 1943, and a last arena for 1944 to 1945.
If you want to consider this to be "sour grapes" that's your problem. I doubt I will ever be interested in trying to go for a special plane. I haven't even looked at the dueling ladder in the BBS much less thought about trying it. I am interested in a more or less level playing field in the MA.
It is obvious that any change n the FM spawns an observable response in the planes that are flown. It used to be practically nothing but 109's and 190s with some F4Uc's before the FM change gave T&B planes a chance to be competitive. Now Spits are far more prevalent.
Mav
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Seems to me that as the planeset really grows up into the 50+ range that we're going to have two choices.
You can have separate arenas by "war period" however that gets divided up. This ought to make a semi-level playing field.
You can have a "anything goes" MA. The field will NOT be level, perk or not. Anyone in something like P-51H is going to slice and dice a Hurricane I, if he knows his business at all. Even if he blows it, he can disengage at will. As someone pointed out earlier, that's half the battle right there.
So, if you don't perk an "anything goes" then most guys will gravitate towards the late war stuff. Not much point in even spending development time on the early war birds.
If you DO perk, there's the risk of running off the "average joe" pilot that gets sick of being in the "underdog" airplane all the time.
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My problem with what most people think perking will be:
Campaign starts, people start to accumulate points.
A week later, Joe Pilot flies his first sortie of the new campaign, having not flown for the past week.
Now, instead of a level playing field, our hypothetical pilot has to deal with much much better planes than he is able to fly, because he doesn't have perk points yet and everyone else does. So, instead of having fun, Joe Pilot gets shot down in his Hurricane over and over by P-51's and FW-D9's until he finally gets PO'ed and logs off.
Having to use "points" to "buy" a perk plane is not fair to people who can't fly every day, unless everyone starts the campaign with enough points to "buy" a plane or two.
Unfortunately, then nobody would ever want to get shot down.
My biggest fear about perking, is that "Points Dweebs" will become utterly dominant in the arena. Nobody will want to risk death, for fear of losing their perk ride. It could, potentially, do more damage to the game than good.
AH already has a minor problem of some people being overly obsessed with K/D ratio. Now, imagine what would happen if the game actually rewarded people based on score. Score would go from being an unimportant number, to the POINT of the game.
Not at all a good thing for gameplay. Unless, of course, you like AltDweebs, Runners, and Ganging. Making score important will encourage those things to be more common than they already are.
I can only hope HTC has thought perking out REALLY well, and come up with a good way to implement it.
J_A_B
[EDIT: This post was written at the same time as the one above. LOL!]
[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 10-04-2000).]
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Sorry Mav, I didn't read any other posts of yours about creating other arenas. I thought you meant let anyone fly anything they want. My mistake. Creating other arenas would definitely work, but until we get the planes it's another idea that goes in the "For Later" box. Then you've got the "not enough peole for it" argument that goes on and on and on......
I'll most likely fly perk planes, both offline and H2H. Aside from a real thrill flying NOE in an Me-262 or Ta-152H, I doubt I'll use them on any regular basis.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
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JAB, Perk planes would be the me 262, f4u-c, 163, meteor,p-38k *grin*, and other fighters that would seriously unbalance the game if they would be released in the MA right now.
That people wont want to die in fear of losing their points, I say thats GREAT! That will at least simulate human self preservation instinct. You not tired of kamikaze buffs or HO'ing & crashing chog dweebs?
Perks would burn points, which means people EARNED the right to fly them. And when they fly them they will still have to ACM good in them if they want to keep the perk and have fun. On the other hand, those wanting to get a perk plane or points for them would be flying either the early war planes for extra points (and more challenging dogfights) or the "normal" planes like P-51, 109's and stuff.
I do not consider P51D or 109g10 to be perky because right now in the MA they hold their own and are not uber. Sure, a 109g10 would probably chew and spit out a P-40 , but hey, if its a good P40 pilot he wont be able to. How many people see the 202 as an easy plane to kill? That slow little bugger, although its practically toothless, it does give you a good ACM.
'nuff said
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Tac,
Actually I think that Perks will cause more than was true prudence. There is nobody here who is going to cout-marshal you and send you to the stockade for failing to do your duty. Your buddies aren't actually going to die if you don't try to save them even if it means some risk to you.
There also seems to be an ongoing myth that WWII pilots didn't HO. They did. They didn't like it, but you can find numerous accounts of it. Bob Tuck's 2nd kill was done by HOing with a Bf110C-4 while flying a Spitfire MkII (8 .303s against 4 7.9s and 2 20mm cannon).
Sisu
-Karnak
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Yes, HO's did happen. But you see in the MA and H2H a lot of people who just who with no regard to anything else. Sort of like the crowd that come from arcade sims. I never said this would cure HO's, all I said is that if someone wants to have a chance at a perk, they will definetely have to watch out for themselves.
BTW, ground kills and strat kills would also give points.
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Tac,
You're right that HOs happen too often in AH right now. I don't like doing them, but I will use one if I think it is my only shot (I've won fights doing that, such as when I was bounced by a Spit IX and I was in a 109G-2). Any other way to get him is preferable though and I will try to do that first.
Sisu
-Karnak