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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Toad on August 19, 2001, 09:34:00 PM

Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Toad on August 19, 2001, 09:34:00 PM
Ok, I'm sure you all remember the visual realism example about seeing the numbers on a T-38 tail at 1000 feet.

Here's one related to looking at the ground. Should be of interest to all you Buff pilots and Jabo artistes.

Once again, this is absolutely not a "knock" on AH, WB, AW or FA. It's an example of what current pixel technology can display compared to what you can see in RL.

****

Instrument runways in the US have a 1000' marker painted on the runway 1000 feet from the approach end. This marker consists of two parallel white stripes that are 150 feet long and 30 feet wide. The two stripes are generally separated by about 50-60 feet but this can vary depending on the width of the runway.

When flying over such a runway, be it black asphalt or gray concrete, at what altitude can you easily distinguish both white 1000' marker stripes? (Assumes a relatively clear, cloudless day and a guy with 20/20 vision.)

A. 10,000'
B. 15,000'
C. 20,000'
D. 25,000'
E. 30,000'
F. 35,000'
G. 40,000'

Ok, take your best shot.

Answer after we get a few guess logged in.    :)

<Edited with bold to help Urchin remember the sizes.   :)>

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Tac on August 19, 2001, 10:17:00 PM
25,000 ?
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Urchin on August 19, 2001, 11:07:00 PM
I'd guess 40,000.  Haven't ever actually LOOKED, but aren't those stripes pretty big?
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: SOB on August 20, 2001, 05:15:00 AM
20,000?
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Nifty on August 20, 2001, 02:30:00 PM
30,000 ft
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Baddawg on August 21, 2001, 12:11:00 AM
Heck Toad I work at an International Airport and dang I have trouble seeing them at ground level.  :) just call me Mr. Magoo, honk honk road hog!
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Nash on August 21, 2001, 04:14:00 AM
30k gotta be.
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Mox on August 21, 2001, 10:14:00 AM
30K?
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: DeeZCamp on August 21, 2001, 10:29:00 AM
25k-30k
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Fatty on August 21, 2001, 10:42:00 AM
40k, easily.
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: DeeZCamp on August 21, 2001, 11:04:00 AM
40k would be easy, but would you be able to diferntiate between the lines specifically, or would you only see a larger white mass  ;)

if your talking about just visually aquiring the general picture of the runway, and a coloring of the runway ends (threshold lines) TD markings ans such, ... hell you could probalby see that from 50k .. although you may not be able to visually see the separate lines.

angle also has to do with what you see.. From directly above would obviosuly be the easiest looking straight down.. but the more angle offesst you increase the harder it would be..
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Fatty on August 21, 2001, 11:16:00 AM
Keep in mind you're talking the equivalent of 2 olympic sized swimming pools side by side.  You can even see home pools quite a ways up, and each line is about 10-20 times the size of a normal backyard pool.
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Toad on August 21, 2001, 12:00:00 PM
Dammit, Fatty!   :)

OK, since Fatty pretty much gave it away...

It was very easy to differentiate between the lines specifically at FL 370. It was a bit harder at FL390. (Both my co-pilot and I; old eyes and young eyes.) I didn't get up to FL410 this trip, but maybe next time.

The field elevation for most of the ones we used as a "test" was in the neighborhood of 1000-1500'.

In any event, figure 35,000 feet above it is no problemo. You can probaly even add a few thousand to that.

BTW, Deez, angle didn't seem to matter much. We flew directly over some that had the nav aid co-located with the field. We also flew near some that had nav aids away from the field resulting in a pretty large angle when you looked at the field.
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: DeeZCamp on August 21, 2001, 12:10:00 PM
Angle would come into affect i guess in relation to how far away from the field to right? I mean, that would also increase distance though.. so hmm? idunno..

hey toad when you gonna take me flyin  ;)

give me some visual tests then  :D
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 21, 2001, 12:10:00 PM
I was just thinking about you and your visualization threads yesterday while doing some yardwork Toad.

I heard a plane fly over.  I live well inside Portland city limits and there are minimum alt requirements in the tightly controlled PDX airspace.  A small cessna flew over at what must have been over 5000 feet.  I could see the pinstripes in the paintjob at that altitude.

AKDejaVu
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: john9001 on August 21, 2001, 01:15:00 PM
i can see cars on the road at 30,000 ft
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: AKDejaVu on August 21, 2001, 01:19:00 PM
I can see white cars (or light colored) at 30,000 feet.  What is hard to know is how many you don't see.

AKDejaVu
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Toad on August 21, 2001, 01:31:00 PM
As I said, I'm not knocking any of the games.

I'm merely pointing out that PC display capabilities have a long way to go before they even approach RL.

Here's another of my favorite examples:

While you are out driving on a relatively flat, straight Interstate highway, keep an eye out for the red and blue Interstate highway shield. These shields are about 36" signs... anyway, they are close enough.

When you see the shield and can identify it by the color, red over blue, check your odometer and note the mileage "tenths".

Then check  the distance traveled when you actually pass the sign.

These signs are close enough in size and definitely in color to the RAF roundels of WW2.

Underside of Wing

 http://spitfirecmraaf.tripod.com/images/rafc32inches.jpg (http://spitfirecmraaf.tripod.com/images/rafc32inches.jpg)

type 'C' 32 inches

Red 12 inch diameter

white 16 inches

blue 32 inches

FUSELAGE
 http://spitfirecmraaf.tripod.com/images/rafc32inches.jpg (http://spitfirecmraaf.tripod.com/images/rafc32inches.jpg)


 
 type 'C1' 36 inches

Red 12 inch diameter

white 16 inches

blue 32 inches

yellow 36 inches
 


I think you'll be suprised at how far away you can make it out. Also, remember that usually the air is MUCH more clear at 25K than at ground level and thus you can see much farther. (Some of you may have experienced this effect just by going from the lowlands up into the mountains. Even 5 or 10k makes a difference.)

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: DeeZCamp on August 21, 2001, 03:32:00 PM
Lack of more preveilent atmosphere as you go higher  ;)

I guess space has the cleanest air lol

 :D
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: Pyro on August 21, 2001, 07:56:00 PM
I've been able to clearly see a plane at a range of 65 miles.
Title: "Visual Realism", Part Deux
Post by: DeeZCamp on August 22, 2001, 08:44:00 AM
<-- has sat in backyard on clear night and seen Satellites pass over in extremely perfect straight path.  :eek:

Out in the country where thiers no city lights, the sky is sooooo much nicer  :)

thats freakin cool  :D

speed .... 22 THOUSAND mph.  :D

Indeed Perk it!