Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Sonicblu on September 02, 2008, 09:33:03 PM
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Would like some help understanding the reason and the why and when a spiral climb is good with an opponent on your six.
Do I have the definition right? It is just a nose up flat turn.
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Would like some help understanding the reason and the why and when a spiral climb is good with an opponent on your six.
Do I have the definition right? It is just a nose up flat turn.
it can not be a flat turn if it is climbing nose up (Spiral Climb ).
it is a nose above horizon spiraling climbing turn in either the left or right direction....with the rate of climb varying depending on the circumstances.
to drain your opponent of their E, and to cause them to stall out so you can roll in for the quick kill...that's it in a nutshell.but to be proficient at performing this tactic, one must have a good grasp on recognition of energy states ....between themselves and their opponent.as well as closure rates and distances of angle off
hope this helps........
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good example:
109K4 pulling this maneuver on a spit V
bad example:
spit V pulling this maneuver on a F4U-1
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Just to add to what TC has already mentioned, the short answer as to the 'when', is you do it when you are sure that you have a sufficient energy margin and/or a large climb-rate advantage over your opponent such that you can spiral climb higher than your opponent and yet stay far enough ahead and up of their nose as to avoid them getting a shot on you.
Assuming they blindly follow, you will be in a good position when they stall out underneath you to kick some inside rudder and drop down on their stalled crate and blast it. The key is that they run out of energy before you do, otherwise they will just pull up behind you and knock you off your perch.
The real answer is knowing not when in terms of timing, but in terms of relative energy and relative positions to each other.
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good example:
109K4 pulling this maneuver on a spit V
bad example:
spit V pulling this maneuver on a F4U-1
freakin 109s always gets me on that move.. (me on a P47) now when i see one happening.. i tend not to climb after him.. unless i am coming in from a dive, cuz then ill reach him fast and get a shot sometimes from even 800-1000 ft or yrds or whatever it is away.. (only cuz of the great fire power of the thunderbolt)
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another aspect is torque, I've found that the Boston is particularly effective in a climbing right hander vs planes like the F4U and 109 that have a lot of torque...I'll see if I can find a clip or two from this weekend and snip a spiral climb or two out.
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to bait them up in the spiral climb, you must give the appearance of giving them a shot...as they pull harder lead to get that shot, they lose E. That is the way I view it as I do it to others.
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to bait them up in the spiral climb, you must give the appearance of giving them a shot...as they pull harder lead to get that shot, they lose E. That is the way I view it as I do it to others.
Correct. Properly done they pull a higher climb rate than you do trying to stay inside your turn which causes them to bleed E even faster. The potential trade off is you burning E turning vs them burning E climbing harder.
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to bait them up in the spiral climb, you must give the appearance of giving them a shot...as they pull harder lead to get that shot, they lose E. That is the way I view it as I do it to others.
Yep, I always start my spiral climbs a little wide to sucker the other guy to follow. As I climb, my spirals grow progressively tighter, forcing the other guy to pull more lead to get the angle and blowing his energy state in the process.
ack-ack
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Correct. Properly done they pull a higher climb rate than you do trying to stay inside your turn which causes them to bleed E even faster. The potential trade off is you burning E turning vs them burning E climbing harder.
As well as them burning e trying to pull lead for the shot. They must turn tighter than you to pull lead.
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The spiral climb is a great choice of maneuver when:
1. Your opponent's aircraft turns better
2. You have a significant edge in sustained climb rate
The spiral climb is de rigueur for any 109 pilot, but it doesn't work so well against the Spit XVI (which accounts for more than half the spitfires flown in the main arena).
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Basically you're trying to use your air speed and climb rate (better know you got more then ur opponent duh). Let him get on your six, drag him upward. Then pulling G as you go up, so you won't be staying in his piper. As he try to follow those G, he'll bleed out and stall and that's when you kick hard rudder nose down and go for the kill=)
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I fly the F4U's most the time and use this quit a bit with success. Had a Ki-84 surprise me the other day cause he was able to continue to climb behind me but wasn't able to get a shot but wasn't stalling either. I was able to hang around long enough with a 51D that tried it on me a week ago, didn't climb to him and even went a bit level for a bit to get enough speed till he stalled.
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a right spiral climb that starts about 2k per min then grows tighter and steadily increases to 3/4k per min is deadly to other crates when done by a 109 (esp K4)
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Got advice to use this manuever early on cuz I drive the spit16 a lot...
One thing to do is take a look through the climb rate data for each plane in the list...see which ones have high rates of climb, which ones don't...
I found that a good place to practice this is when you're down around the ground taking out a base (pre-vulch) and they're upping a lot of planes to defend...they're slow, they're climbing out, and you can usually start out with a small energy advantage in that situation...
Just another thought tho, you have to watch SA doing this...it's easy to be looking in the mirror watching for that "best time" to turn on your opponent and get picked when you're in a low E state...high picking pony, typh, or LA, coming down on you typically, cuz you're looking back and down :salute.
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This isn't something that I have yet learned to use. As it happens, my favourite ride is the Ki84, which would seem to be a pretty good candidate to utilize a climbing spiral.
I was wondering if anyone has any film of this technique in action? I'd be really interested in seeing somebody who knows how to use it put it into action.
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Thanks for all the help much appreciated.
Sorry for late response been away for a few weeks.
S all
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I use is alot when I have a diving con, on my six. I begin with a typical, left or right turn, the sicisor up, back to the right or left. I then go back up to the opposite direction and keep going up in the same direction, but thats if the con is still chasing on my six. Once I reach my peak, I pull some down and keep doing that, or depending on what I'm flying, I pull them into a vertical siscor.
They usually only get one shot in the vertical climb, just whe your going into it. They still have enough E to turn with you, and they are tring to get back up into the BnZ. They usally aren't looking for what you are about to do, but its still a good snapshot on someones wing.
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It might be useful to understand the just what you are looking at when you perform a spiral climb with the enemy on your 6.
There are a lot of visual clues which provide you with positional awareness in relation to your opponent. For instance, the 3 types of pursuits allow you to compare your nose position with that of the enemy. We'll use the gunsight as reference point.
In pure pursuit you put your gunsight on the turning planes tail. This allows you to maintain the same distance and speed in relation to the dude you are pursuing. In lead pursuit, you may put your gunsight on the turning dudes nose or even a plane length or more ahead of him to increase the closure rate. In lag pursuit, you may place your gunsight either on a point behind him or perhaps a little above his tail feathers. Lag pursuit requires you merely ease some of the G pressure off the stick. Ok, 3 different situations with 3 different views although you are using the gunsight as an alignment tool.
<exit back to the spiral climb with the enemy on your 6>
There have already been lots of good info posted here on the subject. Energy or speed differences, zoom climb ability, and how some folks go about their personal tactics to accomplish it have all been touched on and good points, too. I will add the visual clues you may want to be seeing as you perform the maneuvers. To do this I will touch on the 3-9 line.
The 3-9 line is actually numbers on the clock as it relates to your plane. It's easy to understand when you hear "break hard, there's someone on your 6". Bullets zipping by your canopy brings home what "your 6" is quite dramatically. Well your 3-9 line is merely views to the left and right of seat in the cockpit, 3 being your right side view and 9 being your left side. Simple, right? In fact, most folks are saying, "I knew that...it's nothing new". Ok, let's put it to use to determine the positional difference between your plane and that dude out there who's trying to kill you. Or to put it more simply, just who's behind who? I'll bet you've flown around with some other dudes in the arena and you've seen them rolling their wings to the left and right to about 70-90 degrees. You figured this out...hey, they're looking down to see who's below they might be able to jump. Did you know that if you roll your wings and look down and note if the guy is ahead of your 3-9 line then you are behind him? That's kinda cool info to have if you plan to get in on him. You end up on his 6 instead of him pointed right at you with a possible HO situation.
Ok, a quick review. The 3-9 is an invisible line you draw from your eyeballs (in the cockpit) out to the center of each wingtip and from there out into infinity (as far as you can see). Anyone you see ahead of the invisible line is in front of you. Anyone you see behind that line is in back of you. Remember this...AHEAD of line and you're BEHIND them. BEHIND the line and they're BEHIND you. The only that is not true is when you are head on at a merge.
Putting the 3-9 line into real time spiral climb tactics, and you can use any of the previously mentioned ways others have mentioned in this thread, and you use your views to take the dude behind you into a spiral climb until you have turned around him in the climb enough to get behind him or place him in line or ahead of your 3-9 line. At that point your merely roll over and pull right onto his 6. Simple and effective but it must be practiced. It was also mentioned if you can place the dude at your 3-9 line in a turn he cannot "pull" enough to get his guns on you without stalling away. BTW, the spiral climb might also be called, "the rope a dope" manuever because folks fall for it over and over without realizing they're being set up to get sent to the Tower.
Hope this helps.
Ren
Aces High II Training Corps
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Thanks Ren for the visual this helps me alot. Off to practice
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A nifty and easy tip is missing from this thread. To give your opponent the mirage that he can get a shot you can start your spiral climb at a shallow angle, let him close the range but not under 800-1k. Then steepin your climb enough to be able to match his climb speed as you tighten the spiral(turn radius) to keep him trying to pull lead.
Here's the learned part: learn to judge E states so you know when to drop down for a gun solution. The trick is to begin to drop down on him before he stalls out, yet after he can pull his nose up for a gun solution of his own. This way, by the time you have your solution, his nose is falling and you have a nice top shot of a slow helpless plane.
This is my favorite tactic. Since the 51 climbs so unremarkably, most pilots will assume they can get up to me(most guys are not great at judging E states), so I spiral rope often.
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Here's a film of one.
http://files.filefront.com/FW+190D9+v+LA7+0000ahf/;10033213;/fileinfo.html
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Yep, I always start my spiral climbs a little wide to sucker the other guy to follow. As I climb, my spirals grow progressively tighter, forcing the other guy to pull more lead to get the angle and blowing his energy state in the process.
ack-ack
Film!!! LOL. one of the best ways to rope... :aok
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The spiral climb is a great choice of maneuver when:
1. Your opponent's aircraft turns better
2. You have a significant edge in sustained climb rate
The spiral climb is de rigueur for any 109 pilot, but it doesn't work so well against the Spit XVI (which accounts for more than half the spitfires flown in the main arena).
I fly the 16 alot, and when I fight 109's I try and go left. Depending on the pilot I can usually maintain advantage to the left, to the right they seem to hold their own.