Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Maverick on January 04, 2001, 05:09:00 PM
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This is historically correct. We need some kind of range finder. Example the guns on a cruiser (and other boats with cannon) had a rangefinder to be able to get close to the target. If you are shelling a base you need to be able to range to a hanger or something to get an initial spot and start to fire. This crude guess and fire isn't working well particularly with the lack of ground hit sprites. Gunning smaller boats from a fleet unless they are manned is a guessing game. These guns were very accurate and they need a range finder for the player.
Mav
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RTFM !
Click on the clipboard map will give you range and bearing...
Saw
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Also, as stated in Pyro's notes, a observation plane makes this pretty easy.
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I've done the click thing, but still never hit anything on a base. My problem is that even though I zoom in to the max, I still don't know exactly where to click. The base "icon" is quite large when zooming in, and I don't know exactly where the base sits within that icon. It may be a big secret how to do it correctly, but I will find it out one of these days!
Fury
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I'm with Fury here... can't really see where a base is on the map... and spotters don't work. For one... they can't really see where your round is hitting... and secondly, so many guns are firing they'd never be able to tell which one is yours. I've fired 1000's of rounds and never hit anything on the ground. Even when the fleet is 4K away from the shore I can't see where my rounds hit. Guns would be fun... but without being able to see or know where your rounds are hitting... it is useless. We even tried having a fighter fly right over the middle of a base... (squad member with squad highlight on so I knew it was him) and I zoomed map all the way in... click on him when he said he was right over the base to get range and elevation... and I still never hit anything. HOWEVER... I have heard that others have somehow managed to hit objects on bases... so maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
[This message has been edited by Paxil (edited 01-05-2001).]
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Yer not doing niothing wrong, its just a big apin in the bellybutton to hit anything, i have tried with very minimal success, I do pretty well against ships when they get in visual range because i can see the splashes, but the main thing i think makes it hard is the fact that the big guns dont dispers any, therfore if you dont have yer shot aimed PERFECTLY you get a total miss.
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Originally posted by Saintaw:
RTFM !
Click on the clipboard map will give you range and bearing...
Saw
Saw,
Get up off the floor. Enemy fleet does not show on clipboard map. Neither do PT boats or any other ground / water vehicle. Only on the maproom map for the fleet and it is wildly inaccurate for shellfire. Range estimation is not likely without some way to use a range finder as was done in the real deal.
Mav
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I have done the map click to get my estmated range and bearing. THe problem is you don't know if you are hitting anything that doesn't die with one shot. I have killed a couple of gun emplacements, but that is about it. Who knows, I may have hit a hanger or something else, but if it doesn't die when you hit it, you would never know.
A range finder is most definitely needed. Enemy ships should also show on radar when you are manning the fleet guns also.
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Actually the guns on these ship weren't extremely accurate. I'm and old board gamer (Oh ye who are to young to remember the days before the PC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )and the guys that made those board games were just as into there realism as the computer jocks. Your hit percentage counted on several modifiers (some of which we don't have to deal with because we fire the guns) that most of the time brought the hit percentage down below 10%. It takes a lot of rounds to sink a ship normally just do to the fact that you miss a lot. Not that first salvo kills never happened but it wasn't the norm. One of the things that effects the accuracy of shore bombardment is the lack of a good spotting system. During shore bombardment your using indirect fire most of the time (meaning you can't see the target). It's in those cases you need spotter planes, vehicles, or people. Without spotters (as in real life) your just firing at an estimated target pint on the map for effect. Of course if you can directly fire on the target you can spot your own rounds.
I'll give you a list of modifiers from an old board game that will give you a feel for the accuracy of the naval guns:
Ship type, bigger ships are steadier gun platforms
Gun type, main guns had the best fire control and secondary guns were poorly equipped relatively speaking.
Main gun fire control will suffer if one of the gunnery directors is knocked out.
Nationality, different countries had better optics and radar.
Crew quality.
Crew fatigue.
Salvo count, simply with each round you fire the accuracy of or targeting goes up.
Visibility.
If your doing evasive maneuvering or just making a turn.
Sea state, how rough the sea is.
Size of the target ship.
The number of ships firing at the target ship.
Aspect, the angle that the target ship is at retaliative to you.
Speed.
Turning.
Information level, meaning have you determined what ship it is.
Again I'll say that after adding up these modifiers your chance to hit would drop to 10% or less most of the time. Again don't discount it because it's a board game. The navies of the world used the same type of system to simulate battles for strategy and planning before the computer. Like I said we don't have to deal with many of these because we fire the guns and there's no sea conditions.
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Its the same thing with the tanks, guys.
THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD!
This is a flightsim, not a combined arms sim. The ships are intentionally simple, and less effective than airplanes.
I don't agree with those decisions to keep the army and navy portions of the game secondary, but I'm not Pyro or HiTech. I think if your going to add something, do it right, not half way.
So, this is as good as it gets for now.
Hans.
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Does anyone here remember how the big guns were aimed in Task Force: 1942?
Simple, and over time, accurate. In short, don't put the players in the turrets, put them in the gun directors.
That's what I'd like to see here. Just a suggestion, of course.
-Smut
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Originally posted by Smut:
Does anyone here remember how the big guns were aimed in Task Force: 1942?
Simple, and over time, accurate. In short, don't put the players in the turrets, put them in the gun directors.
That's what I'd like to see here. Just a suggestion, of course.
-Smut
Oh yes very well. Setting down at the old 386 (w/math coprocessor and 2 mg of RAM!) looking thru the gun directors slot and dueling with the Mighty Mo vs the Yamato. LOL
I think your on the right track. One guy controlling the Main and secondary guns on the CA. Individuals can grab the tertiary AA guns (<5" guns). This would allow for greater concentration of fire. The CV guns could all be individually controlled. Generally the full set of main batteries on any ship (DD thru BB) were concentrated on one target. Not that they couldn't be individually targeted they just weren't normally. The secondary batteries were generally use to fire at DD's and anything that got close as in AA defense. For close off shore bombardment or a close range ship to ship battle being able to direct the fire of both primary and secondary guns on a target would be nice.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-07-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-07-2001).]
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If I could have implemented the gunnery, I would have had the controls in the gun director station, up on top of the superstructure, and a target data computer (TDC). You set in the targets range, speed, and heading and the guns will aim for that spot (taking into account your own movement).
Getting the data set correctly would be your problem.
Get rid of the "click on map" feature. If you want to see if you shells are hitting over the horizon, get a spotter to fly over there and see.
But, that could mean the guns could be used to bombard targets far, far too easily.
I like sims, not just flight sims, and I am itching for the full sim with all three branches done in full detail, like WW2 Online will have. I think if HTC wants to compete, they should make the navy ships and ground war detailed enough that you don't have to fly a plane if you want to play.
Hans.
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All I've managed to get so far are two Bomber Hangars destroyed. Then again, I had 2 Spotters over the field and I was the only one manning Guns on that Fleet (5" 's). Don't be far (I got an ESTIMATE of the Range by clicking on that Clipboard that's lyin' on the floor with me). Give it quite a lot of lead (at X2 Zoom I was using half a screen of Lead!). Shoot in the water 1st, so that you clearly see what BEARING you need to give in and increment the RANGE by 200yds did it for me.
Now, i someone has the answer to the Follwing please (Backed up with Data would be nice): What was the Precision in Square Yards of these Rangefinders between 1940-45 ?
Thank you,
Saw
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simple: make the guns have different color effects when they hit. This will allow spotters to ID what gun it is (aka, gun #1 fires white tracers that make white hit sprites when they hit the ground or the target, gun #2 has black, #3 has cyan, etc).
OR dont put people "in" the guns but rather on the CON TOWER of the ship. From there they can aim the guns and fire. They will have a much higher point of view and thus better ways to calculate range.
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The idea that heavy guns were or are not accurate in the real world is at best, preposterous. For an idea please consider that the same guns of WW2 vintage were used as close support shellfire in VietNam. This was at a range up to the max range of the guns. It was the same guns, same gun computer and firing on the move in response to calls for fire.
The reason battleships like the Missouri had cruise missiles added was not because the guns were inaccurate but because the missiles have long range.
For ship to ship battle as well as in visual range shore bombardment the cruisers in the game need a range finder.
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 01-08-2001).]
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Maveric, your refering to my post.
I didn't say REAL guns were inaccurate, I said the Aces High guns are inaccurate on purpose. They are supposed to be bad shots for gameplay reasons.
To keep the flightsim part of the game the main show.
I don't like it, but thats what we have.
Hans.
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Sorry Hans, thought you meant in the RL arena. Sorry.
I still want a range finder however! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mav
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firing single round slavos like the 5 inch guns are now capable of with the 8 inch guns would help alot.
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Note, I'm not in the arena, but do HTH so bear with me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Remember, the range and bearing info is for a point source (my guess would be the tower)
there's a lot of dead space around the tower, which means if you are on target, you're hitting nothing, I usually deviate either range or bearing, and change it every salvo, maybe I'm being lucky, but it gets results.
(Hehe ask the Army how arty works) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"