Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Obie303 on September 11, 2008, 09:45:00 AM
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Does anyone use the new TrackIR 4 Pro? I've been toying with the idea of purchasing this and have some questions about its use in the game.
How easy is it to use?
Does it help with SA better than the default views that are set up on a standard HAT switch?
What type of range of views will I gain or loose?
These are just a few thoughts that come to mind right now. I'm sure I'll have more as I continue my research.
(Yes, I've been to the TrackIR website and I've done a search on the BBS here. I couldn't find any good write-ups on this software.)
I'm looking for honest input from players. :aok
Thanks.
Obie
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TrackIR write-up by Mace (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/Track%20IR%20PDF.pdf)
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Thanks Murdr. I'm also interested in people's opinions. The like's and dislike's about this software.
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No experience here, so I can't help in that regard. Just from observation, some people really take a liking to it while others physically suffer motion sickness from using it, or find they are more comfortable using hat switches. Seems more like a personal preference issue than one being vastly superior to another.
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I've used TrackIr in the past; the unstable view platform while shooting, the lack of beng able to slave the views to where you want to look (ie behind obstructions), and the motion sickness aspect made me stop.
Currently (and imho), the TrackIR isn't worth the time or the money yet.
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What Murdr said is spot on - I use trackir, and now, wouldnt fly without it - to me (and this is just how I see it), it gives you much better SA, tho it does take a bit of getting used to. If your going to buy it, take some time and make sure your profile is set up how YOU like it - basic tip - the more aggressive it is, the better - bearing in mind it will take longer to get used to.
Sometimes, my camera will lose track of me - if I'm not careful in setting it up - once you get used to its vagaries, its excellent.
YMMV,
Wurzel
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I have been flying AH for about a year and using TrackIR the entire time. Never have a problem with motion sickness unless I take an extended break. It only takes about a day or so to get comfortable again. Compared to how I remember AW, my SA is much better. It is much more natural for me to follow a maneuvering target by turning my head than with a hat switch on a joystick.
Using Track IR also makes you realize how obstructed the view is from some airplanes. With the default view system, the head position can be moved around to maximize the field of view. When you use Track IR you can't always move your head to the ideal position to see out and certaintly can't do it instantly.
I do think that Track IR also has an advantage over the default system when riding the edge of blackout. With Track IR I can watch the target in the small area still visible in the center of the screen. Since the target is not always in the center with the default views, you gain a small advantage in not having to back off the g's to see.
Now that I am used to flying with Track IR, I wouldn't fly without it.
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I can't fly without it anymore. It's that simple :)
Advantages:
- Immersion
- The ability to easily look around cockpit frame bars in German planes during a fight, they get less obstructive
- Maybe a minor advantage when doing maneuvers like rolling scissors - smooth tracking of your enemy.
Disadvantages:
- Porked 6 view in F4U's and F6F's
- It's rare, but a few people seem to experience some motion sickness. Most can overcome this by changing certain settings and getting used to it, but a very small players just can't use it now matter how hard they try.
AH's native "hat" view system combined with the ability to freely move and save head position is so good that TIR won't give you any decisive "advantage" - You won't get a better pilot or more succeful just by using TIR.
Concerning the mentione instability during shooting: It's just a setup thing. TIR settings can and should be tweaked alot according to the players preference.
Using Track IR also makes you realize how obstructed the view is from some airplanes. With the default view system, the head position can be moved around to maximize the field of view. When you use Track IR you can't always move your head to the ideal position to see out and certaintly can't do it instantly.
Odd... being able to instantly move my head freely around in the cockpit with TIR is a huge asset to me
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I've used my Track IR since before I flew AH in online mode the first time. So I can't really compare it to the AH view system. I can say that it won't be set up "just right" until you tweak things. For me, it was flaky until I fiddled with the dot sensitivity (can't remember what its really called), allowing the web cam part to finally pick up the IR leds like it wants. Now it works great all the time. As I recall I started with Mace's setup and tweaked things from there.
I've never gotten motion sickness and in fact I look all over the place without thinking about it. Its totally natural. I think it really helps when flying one of the birdcage aircraft, as I can easily swing move my head to keep an aircraft I'm tracking out of the frames... or conversely if I'm flying into the sun I can put a frame right there to block the sun out... improvised sunshades. I don't think it affects my aim (although my aim is bad) just because before firing I return my head to a default position which I can tell I'm at based on where the gunsight is. In fact for deflection shots it helps look over the nose.
I hadn't thought about what 4Fox said about riding the blackout tunnel, but he's right, if you don't use a head tracker I bet you couldn't do that quite as well with normal views.
All this said, if I had a bit more time or a little less lazy, I would have tried to make a freetrack device with an old web cam and some IR LEDs. Its cheap enough that I think it would be worth trying out before shelling out over $200. Not that Track IR isn't worth its price... I think it IS worth it... but just that building a freetrack should be THAT much cheaper, if it works nearly as well, which I can't speak on.
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I was mostly referring to the problem with looking back in the F4u.
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I haven't had a proper trackIR, but i did do some experimenting around with FreeTrack and a home-made IR headset 'clip' and a budget web cam. It worked ok, i suspect it is not as smooth as track IR and does take more processor cycles to run etc, but it did give me a taste of what this sort of head-tracking system is like. I know it would take a while to get used to the new paradigm, learning new muscle memories etc, but i just never felt comfortable with it.
My biggest complaint was a lack of tactile reference. What I mean by that is that when you are looking backwards and up with a hat view system, you fingers are pushing the hat switch back and another finger is pushing the up modifier button etc while you are looking at essentially just blue sky. And for each change in view, there's a corresponding change in finger positions which is a learnt position which relates to the view mentally.
So when you are scanning around wildly or tracking a con through the view system you know where you are actually looking based on what you are doing with your fingers (or at least that part is a big help). Often there is no physical reference markers (espc in a P51) like canopy frames etc to know where you're looking, so i rely on what my fingers are doing to cue me as to where im am looking.
Why does it matter? Well, if i know where im looking, i can use that knowledge to make sense of how the world is moving around me in a relative sense, and i use that info to help fly my aircraft while looking, say backwards and up, or left upwards etc. Without knowing exactly where im looking, i find it hard to fly my aircraft while looking in unnatural directions.
I often just simply crashed or got into wierd stalls etc because i couldn't tell exactly what attitude my aircraft was taking. That combined with the less than brilliant performance of my crap webcam, i gave up on it and went back to hat switch. Much more comfortable.
One thing i found that was to disable (or majorly scale down) the roll axis, as i found it not very useful and only ever complicated things. It also took me ages to get a setup/scaling/profile that worked for me. This is what can make or break your experience i think.
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My biggest complaint was a lack of tactile reference. What I mean by that is that when you are looking backwards and up with a hat view system, you fingers are pushing the hat switch back and another finger is pushing the up modifier button etc while you are looking at essentially just blue sky. And for each change in view, there's a corresponding change in finger positions which is a learnt position which relates to the view mentally.
So when you are scanning around wildly or tracking a con through the view system you know where you are actually looking based on what you are doing with your fingers (or at least that part is a big help). Often there is no physical reference markers (espc in a P51) like canopy frames etc to know where you're looking, so i rely on what my fingers are doing to cue me as to where im am looking.
Why does it matter? Well, if i know where im looking, i can use that knowledge to make sense of how the world is moving around me in a relative sense, and i use that info to help fly my aircraft while looking, say backwards and up, or left upwards etc. Without knowing exactly where im looking, i find it hard to fly my aircraft while looking in unnatural directions.
I often just simply crashed or got into wierd stalls etc because i couldn't tell exactly what attitude my aircraft was taking.
I think that may be just a matter of time / practice. I have no problem flying a P-51, I can always tell which way I am looking / what attitude the plane has even without having any visual reference due to the frameless canopy.
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Great! Thank you folks. It's a pretty hefty investment of around $180.00 USD.
From what I'm reading, it looks like it more for the immersion of the game. From the time I started flying sims, I've mainly used the HAT switch and saved views that worked for me in a particular plane. Since I can't fly the F6F or the F4U's anyway (I stink in them), I may take the plunge and purchase the Pro.
Is there a learning curve as to getting used to the views? The reason why I ask is I generally fly between 15 to 30 hours a month in the MA and I do sometimes take a break from flying.
Thanks again. :aok
Obie
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I think that may be just a matter of time / practice. I have no problem flying a P-51, I can always tell which way I am looking / what attitude the plane has even without having any visual reference due to the frameless canopy.
Yer, i suspected as much. But for the life of me i couldn't pin point any real advantages in using such a system, so i stopped.
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Great! Thank you folks. It's a pretty hefty investment of around $180.00 USD.
From what I'm reading, it looks like it more for the immersion of the game. From the time I started flying sims, I've mainly used the HAT switch and saved views that worked for me in a particular plane. Since I can't fly the F6F or the F4U's anyway (I stink in them), I may take the plunge and purchase the Pro.
Is there a learning curve as to getting used to the views? The reason why I ask is I generally fly between 15 to 30 hours a month in the MA and I do sometimes take a break from flying.
Thanks again. :aok
Obie
Hiya Obie,
I built the poor mans version and used it for a month. I fly more than you. but not a lot. I also have a few more years flying sims than you. My problem was I could NEVER get my head in the right positions with the same ease I can with the hat switches. My home built rig worked great and I had no lag issues (pretty strong computer) but I think with all those years of doing it with the hat switches a month still wasn't enough to brake the habit of going for the switches.
Immersion factor was really cool, but when it started getting heavy action wize my fingers are much faster than my head. Again, I've been flying longer than you, so I'm sure the habit is a bit more ingrained in me, also its tuff teaching an old dog new tricks :D again, you have the advantage over me as I'm sure your much younger.
Keep us up to date on how you make out ! <S> we got to get together for a coffee sometime!
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This old dog took to the trackir with no real problems. Sure there was about two weeks where I thought I would never get use to it, then I found out about modifying the profile. Now I can't imagine flying without it. I would like to add one caveat, so far I have had much better luck with the reflectors on the hat as opposed to the trackclip pro (the LED lights). As I'm not flying in the MA atm I've been playing with the trackclip, and I think that I may be able to dial it in where I could use it instead of the reflectors.
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I have the TIR 4 pro rig (about 5 months now)
It takes a bit of getting used to...but holy crap is it worth it.
I have none of the problems with the pro rig (with the leds on the clip that attaches to the headset) that some
others have had. In my opinion that rig is far superior than the reflective hat clip (one comes with the package)
I have become so accustomed to it that;
1. I move my head around while watching films thinking it will move the view
2. I find myself trying to peek around blind spots in other games by moving my head
3. I can no longer fly without it.
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Is there a learning curve as to getting used to the views?
Yes, defenitely. It takes time to get used to it, and then again some time to finally tweak the settings to your personal needs - which is very important.
2. I find myself trying to peek around blind spots in other games by moving my head
Sounds very familiar to me :D
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Thanks again everyone. Your input was very helpful in helping me make a decision. :aok
So, in about two weeks if you see a spit 9 or a pony B spiraling out of control, don't worry. It's just me. :D
Keep us up to date on how you make out ! <S> we got to get together for a coffee sometime!
Definitely Fugi!
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I´ve flown with the TIR4+Trackclip for around a year, and i refuse to live without it anymore :devil
Only gripe is those planes with a lot of steel behind the pilot, its quite hard to get a proper 6 view when in middle of fight.
AH2 has currently the best TIR support in a prop sim <S> HTC for that !
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Disadvantages:
- Porked 6 view in F4U's and F6F's
Thanks Lusche. That's exactly the information I came here looking for. I'm new to the game (less than a month) and I've been using a TrackIR for the last couple of weeks. TrackIR is amazing, and I completely agree with everything that everyone's said about SA... however, I normally fly the F6F and I've found that the headrest is really in my way! I'm glad to see it's more or less a problem with a couple of specific planes...
I would like to add one caveat, so far I have had much better luck with the reflectors on the hat as opposed to the trackclip pro (the LED lights).
I couldn't agree with you more. I ponied up the extra cash for the LED headset and found it to be annoying. It got in my way every time I took my headset on and off. Now I've clipped the old "reflective hat clip" to the top of my headset and I couldn't be any more pleased (aside from the whole can't see my 6 in an F6F... but who needs to live, right?)
Thanks,
Tim
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Thanks Lusche. That's exactly the information I came here looking for. I'm new to the game (less than a month) and I've been using a TrackIR for the last couple of weeks. TrackIR is amazing, and I completely agree with everything that everyone's said about SA... however, I normally fly the F6F and I've found that the headrest is really in my way! I'm glad to see it's more or less a problem with a couple of specific planes...
I couldn't agree with you more. I ponied up the extra cash for the LED headset and found it to be annoying. It got in my way every time I took my headset on and off. Now I've clipped the old "reflective hat clip" to the top of my headset and I couldn't be any more pleased (aside from the whole can't see my 6 in an F6F... but who needs to live, right?)
Thanks,
Tim
Actually, I get the same 6 views in the F6F and F4U that anyone else can get. I just use the hat switch to look directly to my 6 and then shift my head left or right to see around the seat. It comes naturally with practice, but the best comes from the immersion of the TIR4. I wouldn't play without it. It does take some getting used to, but just leave your hat switch enabled and slowly acclimate yourself to it. Soon you won't be using the HAT much, and you'll have a comepletely immersive experience. Also, for new TIR4 users, plan to spend an hour or two just tweaking the settings of the software to get you the profile you are comfy with. It'll go a LONG way for comfort. I've got mine tweaked so I don't get any lost tracking, and can look anywhere from the cockpit I want with relative ease.
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Actually, I get the same 6 views in the F6F and F4U that anyone else can get. I just use the hat switch to look directly to my 6 and then shift my head left or right to see around the seat. It comes naturally with practice, but the best comes from the immersion of the TIR4. I wouldn't play without it. It does take some getting used to, but just leave your hat switch enabled and slowly acclimate yourself to it. Soon you won't be using the HAT much, and you'll have a comepletely immersive experience. Also, for new TIR4 users, plan to spend an hour or two just tweaking the settings of the software to get you the profile you are comfy with. It'll go a LONG way for comfort. I've got mine tweaked so I don't get any lost tracking, and can look anywhere from the cockpit I want with relative ease.
Whom better to reply than my very own Squad leader! <S> Chapel.
I too use the hat to look directly behind me and then slide my head left and right to see around the seat... it's the only reason I still have my primary hat programmed for views. It's a bit of a clumsy workaround when you're getting started though. I can do it easily when flying with my wingman and I'm casually checking in on him, but in the heat of battle I tend to rely too much on the kindness of allies to tell me when the bandit is "in" and when he's "out" because at my newbie skill level - too much time spent looking backwards means that my nose is going to find itself pitching up or down... (remember when you learned to drive a car, and looking over your shoulder for a lane change would actually cause you to drift that way? same same.)
I have two possible solutions that I'm going to try once the wife lets me play again... One, someone mentioned earlier, leaning inward and down before you "center" the TrackIR, then sitting upright will raise your head in the canopy - and I imagine give you a much better perspective overall.
The other thing that I'll try is to set the "X" scaling in the TIR software so that it doesn't require such drastic movements to move the camera left and right. I have to lean my whole body to one side or another, which tends to cause my stick to drift as mentioned above.
Thanks,
Tim
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1. I move my head around while watching films thinking it will move the view
:aok me too!
Sometimes while driving I move my head very slightly, thinking I'll be able to see side-to-side just so easy. :lol
For the F4U's I find that if you "center" your TIR view in a way so that you wind up sitting very "high" in the cockpit, you can see aft quite well. Then, when you get saddled on someone, just recenter TIR for normal height view and you can see your sight normally.