Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: GrimWulf on September 15, 2008, 03:18:50 PM
-
So I'm chasing a jug on the deck in a 109. The jug gets 1.5k in front of me and pulls up slightly...I stay on the deck to keep my speed, and the next thing I know this Jug pulls vertical and rudders over to the left and is now pointing straight down. It all happened so fast that I was still flying straight on the deck and get raked by 8 .50's and lose my engine. I looked back and the jug was able to pull out of it, and egress (this was about the time I hit the water). This jug couldn't have been 50-100 feet off the water pointing straight down when i flew through his guns. This was an awesome stunt and would love to learn it. Can't remember the name of the guy who pulled this off but :salute to you.
-
Did you get it on film? :noid
-
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x108/Mr-Bluntman/no_soup_for_you.png)
-
I've heard of Pony pilots doing this before in WWII. It's a variation of a snap roll, IIRC. I think I heard that they basically do a snap roll, but the instant the roll goes, they snap the stick forward to stop it. I guess it literally makes the aircraft flip around like that. Pretty incredible that he got guns on you though, quite the shot! I also heard that in doing that, the pilot hits his head against the canopy pretty hard... :lol
-
Sounds like a perfectly executed "Sliceback"
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z39/clerick44/sliceback.jpg)
"The Sliceback is an evil maneuver, a dirty trick to pull on a bandit who’s comfortably on
your long six o’clock. It comprises a gentle zoom with an aggressive skid near the top
followed by a nose-low opposite rudder reversal to bring you near head-on with your highly
rattled pursuer. You will need quite a bit of separation for this move since you burn a lot of
energy in the reversal – don’t try it if the bandit is anywhere near guns range. It is best
employed by a fighter with high wingloading and considerable rudder authority, in a situation
where a flat or oblique turn would most likely give the enemy a full planform snapshot. The
maneuver requires a good deal of rudder-aileron coordination and should not be attempted
without first having perfected the technique. The “trick” is to mask the airspeed decrease
with the low speed skid – the follow-up rudder reversal usually comes as a nasty shock.
The sliceback is useful in a standard dogfight as well. If you're energy-rich but
angles-poor in a turning fight, the reflexive behavior is to honk back on the stick and bleed
energy to stay with the bandit. This leads without fault to black-out from excessive gravity
loads, to loss of visual contact and sacrifice of the energy advantage. A more cautious pilot
will normally zoom in the bandit’s rear hemisphere and roll his lift vector onto him for a
high yo-yo. While this is certainly good in most cases, it’s time-consuming and thus allows
the bandit a respite during which angles are lost. The outcome is generally a nose-to-nose
fight where either or both will succumb to head-on shots or collision.
In this situation it is far better to use the vertical and a bit of rudder work. E.g. in a
left turning fight where you have an energy advantage on a bandit who's breaking hard to
left, you nose up and skid right (top rudder) with a bit of left aileron to counter the roll, then
rudder hard to left, nose low while adding a bit of right aileron. This is a sort of vertical lag
displacement sliceback which doesn't cost you much energy and which gives you a low yo-yo snapshot at the bandit (who sustains his left turn). Follow it up with another high sliceback if he keeps up his turn, and with a steep barrel roll (canopy to bandit) if he reverses."
From In Pursuit by JOHAN KYLANDER
Found here in PDF
http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/ (http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/)
-
Can't remember the name of the guy who pulled this off but :salute to you.
I've seen Trotter do that. Very impressive, as you say.
- oldman
-
Clerick that looks exactly like what he did to me. But he never got to the point of HO...He caught me on the downswing :lol ...No, I wish i had filmed it...but i was in the mode of easy kill no need to film :rofl oh well means i gonna have to learn that, because I always seem to get caught on the egress back to base on the deck barely pulling away so something awesome to learn... Thanks again Clerick
-
It seems to work best in AC with good rudder authority. Flying the 38 almost exclusively i find it VERY effective and have used it often to turn the tables on a bandit on my long 6.
-
So that's what happened to my 190 the other day... Thought it was a glitch... :o
-
Think I'm going to have to learn that one of these days. ;)
I remember this fight. I was running from A24 low on fuel on the deck and you were gaining on me. I knew there was no escape but I had a good head of steam going (somewhere over 300). Saw you coming and when you got in the 1.5K range I chopped the throttle and pulled up slightly and a little to the right. Once I was near the top I hit a notch of flaps, firewalled the throttle, and did a snap roll over the top and back to the left. This bled all of my E but got me a fraction of a second to let my 8 .50s sling lead into your flight path as you passed by. I barely pinged you and someone else came along to finish you off. I had a nose low attitude but I was extremely slow which is what allowed me to recover before my Jug became a sub.
-
I've seen Trotter do that. Very impressive, as you say.
- oldman
that's what the "bat-turn" i AW3's P-38 was, more or less. roll one way with alierons, rudder at opposite deflection, often combined with some pitch upwards. i do variations of it in every plane, when trying to force an overshoot, with mostly a roll back onto target at the top, as opposed to turning back down into the con still approaching.
from the OP's description, sounds like it was luckily perfectly executed, lol. woulda been a beautiful film.
-
The film that I would like to see is were a Jug ges up into a stall, three notches of flaps and hits rudder, just before the stall. What it does is a complete 360 and it gives you a wiked snapshot on the guy on your tail.
Anyone have a film?
-
:salute Lilmak
-
It sounds to me like the guy did almost a version of the hammerhead, but you were moving so fast he didn't have time to come back down.... So he just fired on you! I have done this lots of times on people especially if some is diving on me with too much E! P47 and P51 have a great ability to turn around and out dive things Because they are so heavy! I think with out seeing the video that would be my guess:) Learn to do it yourself hope this helps:)
20mmrain
-
It sounds to me like the guy did almost a version of the hammerhead, but you were moving so fast he didn't have time to come back down.... So he just fired on you! I have done this lots of times on people especially if some is diving on me with too much E! P47 and P51 have a great ability to turn around and out dive things Because they are so heavy! I think with out seeing the video that would be my guess:) Learn to do it yourself hope this helps:)
20mmrain
What I did was basically a slow, E bleeding, barrel roll with a snap on top to get a guns solution. It's a risky move because had he not lost his engine to a lucky hit, I was completely deficient of E and at his mercy. Hell, had it not been for my teammate polishing him off, he might have had enough speed to loop over the top and kill me with his engine completely locked up. At high speeds the Jug turns extremely well and will shake a 109 who is nearly compressed trying to catch up. I know that if my Jug is over 300mph and a 109 is walking up my tail I can out turn him easily without even using the 1st notch of flaps. The problem with slowing down in a jug is you have to make quick work of the enemy because he will eventually gain the advantage and the wallowing P-47 will become easy meat.
-
*grabs my soda* Time to start practicing this move. :cool: Well done lilmak, we must fly together sometime sir. :aok
-
Yucca, Nomde, and I went to the train area, just to help me with the move in the jug a couple years ago. That was the first move they showed me and it is Yuccas favorite. When ever I come zooming in on a jug and see that happen. You will notice a bounce and then they go straight up, I know I am going against an very good Jug pilot.
-
*grabs my soda* Time to start practicing this move. :cool: Well done lilmak, we must fly together sometime sir. :aok
I'm probably not a very good wingman as I'm usually buzzing around by myself into large dar bars, picking pickers, and at the front of a long red conga lines. I fly pretty stupid and get myself into situations I probably should avoid. But making it out of dire situations with 6 scalps and holes in my Thunderbolt once every 10 or so flights is where I get most of my AH kicks. Doing this is a great way to get good in the monster though.
I'm always willing to wing up with other Jug sticks and work on it when I can so, if you see me on, give me a shout and we'll hook up. :salute
-
The Thunderbolt is one of my favorites and I hope that this thread has stirred up some more interest in the American Workhorses. LilMak again :salute on a job well done. I did think I was in for an easy kill and you completely turned the tables on me and I must say a job well done. Now that the cat is outta bag I hope that I will recognize this maneuver in the future for what it is and hope I will be able to use it someday. :aok
-
Yea, maybe it will attract some P47 pilots to the 84th FS.... :cool: ( I dare you to click the links in my siggie :t )
-
The film that I would like to see is were a Jug ges up into a stall, three notches of flaps and hits rudder, just before the stall. What it does is a complete 360 and it gives you a wiked snapshot on the guy on your tail.
Anyone have a film?
You talkin bout the one i showed ya?
-
You talkin bout the one i showed ya?
I still don't know it, but yea, that one.
-
Film when Shane is near by or get his humble self to send you some film. I think Drex use to be a master of this as well. Regardless Shane wacked me w/my KI vrs his 47 using this.... <S>