Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: A8TOOL on September 16, 2008, 02:28:19 AM
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So the P-51 should have a converg of 350 so Steve says. I know AKDg is also one of the better 51 pilots but I think his is a little farther out. I myself for some reason have a tough time hitting anything with the 50's in it unlike the F4's or F6... I wonder why that is?
The F4 has it's guns a little lower on the wings, the F6 and 51 should be about the same but shoot much different. They all have 50's, why so different?
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The only plane with .50s that I have trouble with is the B and only because it has just four guns. I use the same convergence on all of them because I have the same shooting habits in all planes I fly... which is mostly the D. :D
I like the F6F though. I can fly it land six kills and still have more ammo then the pony carries. :aok
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I usually go for 325 - i like to be close in when i fire.
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My convergence on my B Pony is 400 for the outboard and 375 for the inboard. Works wonders for me. :aok
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400 here.
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I randomly converg all my guns on all my plane between 450-400. The 262 I have them to 375 though because I wait till I can real close to fire.
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So the P-51 should have a converg of 350 so Steve says. I know AKDg is also one of the better 51 pilots but I think his is a little farther out. I myself for some reason have a tough time hitting anything with the 50's in it unlike the F4's or F6... I wonder why that is?
The F4 has it's guns a little lower on the wings, the F6 and 51 should be about the same but shoot much different. They all have 50's, why so different?
I think it because of the speed. Generally your running faster in a "D" so the lead you take on your target will be different. The fastwer your going to less you need to lead.... not by much, but it might be what makes it seem like your not hitting as well.
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Man, I used to keep mine at 200 :O
But at some point, my 'perfect' gunnery went down the drain. So I just went and put it out at 400. 400 works great, if the plane is 400 away, and you arent sure about the shot, just put the gunsight right on it, and you'll hit true to your aim.
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I set the Dpony guns at 425 and the Bpony at 325. My squad co sets his at 250. And he does way better then me. I can get 4 or 5 kills before I run out of ammo, where as SkatSr can manage 8 or 10 kills in a sortie. :cry
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I keep mine at 300. More lead at a closer convergence adds to the devastating firepower of the .50 cals.
Besides, I love the sound of Spit 16 debris hitting my canopy. :D
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450 on all 50's 650 on all cannons.
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425 Inner, 400 Middle, and 375 on the outer guns. Works Perfect for me A8Tool.
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I keep mine at 300.
+1
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There are actually two types of .50s found on U.S. fighters. One is for a normal installation and one is for a synchronized installation. The P-40B uses a synchronized installation which has a lower rate of fire than the normal version. They are still the same in a bullet per bullet comparison.
As for them using different characteristics, that's not how the system works. Lethality, rate of fire, muzzle velocity, armor penetration, etc, is not set on a plane by plane basis. There's a weapon file that is set up with all that information. None of that info is defined in any of the plane files, it just says go use this weapon for this hardpoint. These planes(with the exception of the P-40B) are all set to the same weapon.
Now this is not to say that your perception is wrong. It's just that what you attribute as the cause of your perception may be what's wrong. For example, compare the FM2 versus the P-51B. They have identical guns(I did verify all of these). Yet you note that one is much more effective than the other. What other differences are involved that may account for the disparity? Is it really that you are using different weapons or is it that you are using the same weapons in a different way or against different things?
The only difference between .50s is between ground vehicles and aircraft. Aircraft .50s use a 36" barrel versus a 45" barrel on ground vehicles. That equates to something like an extra 100 fps M.V. for the GV .50s.
That said, the F4U does hit harder on average(not at peak) due to the differences in their ammo loads. If you fire all of your guns together, both planes will have 30 seconds of fire. After about 20 seconds the P-51 will run out of ammo on 4 of its guns and be left with only 2 for the remaining 10 seconds. After about 28 seconds the F4U will run out of ammo for 2 of its guns and be left with 4 guns for the remaining 2 seconds. Over the course of 30 seconds, the F4U will deliver 25% more firepower.
The FM2 has the same number of rounds in all 4 of its guns so lethality remains constant through the entire ammo load when you fire all guns.
Aircraft .50s have a fire rate of 800 rpm. FM2's duration of fire in minutes would be 430/800 = .5375 minutes or 32.25 seconds.
BTW, another difference between the .50s in the aircraft and GVs is rate of fire. The aircraft .50s have a higher rate of fire.
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nice find Slappy
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This could be a contributer to why when fairly equal-on-paper forces met in the recent Rangoon scenario, the Allies generally shot the Axis out of the sky... the average player was familiar with the Allied 50 cal armament and "just knew" how to lead their shots, from all their experience with 50cals in the main arenas (albeit in different aircraft).
The average player wasn't familiar with the guns on the Zeros.
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This could be a contributer to why when fairly equal-on-paper forces met in the recent Rangoon scenario, the Allies generally shot the Axis out of the sky... the average player was familiar with the Allied 50 cal armament and "just knew" how to lead their shots, from all their experience with 50cals in the main arenas (albeit in different aircraft).
The average player wasn't familiar with the guns on the Zeros.
Players who are used to the 6x.50 cal armament are frequently befuddled with cannon armaments other than hizookas.
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If you're shooting outside of 400 yards, you don't really have a shot.
You ever wonder why you can land hits on a target out to 800 yards but you never do much damage? Because bullets lose a lot of impact power the further down range they fly. Dispersion also has a major effect. It might take you 800 rounds and 100+ hits on a target at 800 yards before you bring it down. At 250 yards it would take 100 rounds and maybe 30 hits to do the same.
Set your convergence for the range you KILL at. Not the range you think you want to hit at. Doesn't matter if you spray at cons at 800 yards, so you set guns to that hoping for long range kills. What matters is once you're done tickling the bugger, and he breaks into you, or another con engages you, and after a fight you get a kill shot, what range is that?
99% of the time it will be under 400 yards, so setting your guns out further just screws you over when it comes time to get the job done, and done quickly.
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425 Inner, 400 Middle, and 375 on the outer guns. Works Perfect for me A8Tool.
Not really.
4.36 hit %
Staggered convergence just doesn't work as well in AHII
Tool, I set mine at 350 but it isn't the magical setting.. I've considered setting them to 300 or closer at times.
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If you're shooting outside of 400 yards, you don't really have a shot.
Hmmm... I've been flying American F and P series planes the past week or two and I've gotten quite a few kills at 1000 yards (tracking shots with convergence set to 650). Not only that but, until last night when I was straffing ground targets in fighter mode with a Jug, my hit % was still in the mid 9's. I was suprised to find that at 1000 yards I didn't even have to elevate the pipper to hit solidly. Those .50's are lazer guided compared to the axis cannoned birds.
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I think Rogent told me one time he set them at 200 so deflection shots were easier. :salute
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Hmmm... I've been flying American F and P series planes the past week or two and I've gotten quite a few kills at 1000 yards (tracking shots with convergence set to 650). Not only that but, until last night when I was straffing ground targets in fighter mode with a Jug, my hit % was still in the mid 9's. I was suprised to find that at 1000 yards I didn't even have to elevate the pipper to hit solidly. Those .50's are lazer guided compared to the axis cannoned birds.
I've read on these forums that the game doesn't model diminished hitting power at long range on ground targets like it does on air targets.
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Ground targets don't react the way they should -- there's no penetration power at all.
This is with structures, mind you. Against vehicles it's all taken into account.
Not a failing of the ammo itself, a failing of the damage model on the item being hit.
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I use the Bravo more than the Delta.. Either way, I use the 4 gun package on the Delta to make things interesting...
For me, I set 4 50's no more than 250 out... I try not fire until I'm less than 300 yards away from the target..
Even with 4 guns, at 200 yards, it's usually a lethal burst.. With 6 50's, even more so...
I have found that a staggered convergence is more or less useless as all your doing is peppering your target but not actually making any significant damage..
Fact of the matter is that a closer convergence setting will give you much more lethality when fired at or near the convergence point more so than that of a farther convergence point hitting at or near convergence..
My gunnery sucks horribly, so when I fly planes other than the usual P-38, I set 'em in close... Usually not more than 300 or 325..
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I've read on these forums that the game doesn't model diminished hitting power at long range on ground targets like it does on air targets.
What's that got to do with shooting down airplanes at 1000 yards?
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Thanks guys. The thread was more about me wondering why .50's fire differently in different planes. Firing rounds off in the 51 is much different than the F6, Fm2's and F4U's.
Fugitive, I thinking speed has a lot to do with it also. It also seems slight movements of the stick can easily throw your aim off as well....probably again do to speed
It just shoots so much different than the F6.
I think it because of the speed. Generally your running faster in a "D" so the lead you take on your target will be different. The faster your going to less you need to lead.... not by much, but it might be what makes it seem like your not hitting as well.
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I had all of mine set to 350.
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I think Rogent told me one time he set them at 200 so deflection shots were easier. :salute
That might help a little ... deflection shots using .50 cals is no where near effective as deflection shots with cannons ... regardless of .50 cal convergence.
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If you're shooting outside of 400 yards, you don't really have a shot.
You ever wonder why you can land hits on a target out to 800 yards but you never do much damage? Because bullets lose a lot of impact power the further down range they fly. Dispersion also has a major effect. It might take you 800 rounds and 100+ hits on a target at 800 yards before you bring it down. At 250 yards it would take 100 rounds and maybe 30 hits to do the same.
Set your convergence for the range you KILL at. Not the range you think you want to hit at. Doesn't matter if you spray at cons at 800 yards, so you set guns to that hoping for long range kills. What matters is once you're done tickling the bugger, and he breaks into you, or another con engages you, and after a fight you get a kill shot, what range is that?
99% of the time it will be under 400 yards, so setting your guns out further just screws you over when it comes time to get the job done, and done quickly.
I don't agree with that at all. All my .50 cals (F4U, F6F, FM2) all have the convergence set to 450. I get plenty of kills beyond 450 and many more kills inside the 450 range ... with most kills coming at 250-300. Inside 250, I sweep at little left and right when on someone's 6 to lay bullets from both wings on the target.
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D set at 325. B set at 300.
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If you're shooting outside of 400 yards, you don't really have a shot.
800 yards -- about 30 rounds fired... engine 1 and headshot...
http://www.vimeo.com/1727530
Its all about knowing the plane and programming that 'muscle memory.' I will agree with you that at 800 yards from astern you are wasting your time shooting.
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The exception that proves the rule. I've nailed planes just as far with just as few rounds (I once hispano sniped somebody outside of 800 yards with 2 bursts, and got his wing), but these are not the norm. They are so exceptional and easily remembered because most times when you take shots like that you don't do anything.
I still maintain: Set the convergence to the range you get kills, not the range you want to vainly shoot at escaping targets.
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800 yards -- about 30 rounds fired... engine 1 and headshot...
http://www.vimeo.com/1727530
Its all about knowing the plane and programming that 'muscle memory.' I will agree with you that at 800 yards from astern you are wasting your time shooting.
You knocked the CH out of that Nit.
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I leave mine set for 275.
When the Icon counter flips from D400 to D200, your actual range is 299yds. So when I see the counter switch to D200, I finalize my aim and fire, which means I'm about as close to hitting the enemy plane at my convergence distance as possible, maximizing the damage my F4U's .50's will inflict.
Quick shots at that range are really all you need to cut a plane in half or saw a wing off. A little tickle performs like a chainsaw.
I'll fire at planes as far as D600 at times (to get them to turn), but I don't get serious until he gets to D200. At close range your bullets do more damage, the target appears larger, and your required lead is less. It makes it easier to hit and kill.
Those are important considerations when you realize that unless you're wings are level, and you're flying level at 1G, your gunsight is "off". If you're pointing your nose up or down, you'll shoot "high", banked left you'll shoot low/left (which may appear high/left from your perspective), banked right you'll shoot low/right, and inverted you'll shoot quite low (which will appear quite high from your perspective). Pulling G's while firing adds more deviation.
Setting your convergence closer and firing closer will also minimize some of those effects, where setting your convergence further out and firing further out will increase some of those effects.
Your bullets will also "cease to exist" in AH at varying distances, depending on altitude. Your bullets "cease to exist" at closer ranges the lower you are, and will "exist" longer (fly further) at higher altitude. If I remember correctly, it is flat-out impossible to hit a target on the deck at 1000yds (900?)(because your bullets no longer exist), but you will still punch holes through the target at 1200 (or more) yards at 8K or so. That's really just some interesting trivia, more than anything helpful...
You can test these ideas using the .target command. Keep in mind that "groups" fired at this target will look better than they really are. The rings are 10 feet apart, which means that the center ring is 20 feet in diameter. So a group that patterns in the bottom of the "bullseye" or "10" ring is actually 8-10 feet low, and could be printing an area the size of your living room wall. Hardly a "tight" group, that will do maximum damage with bullets that simply punch holes in things (like .50's). Putting your shots in the "8" ring? WTG! You're 30 feet off! Hehe! On a target that isn't even moving...
If you hit the bottom of the 10 ring, that's like shooting 5 feet under the plane in front of you (with him on autopilot, hehe!) (Look at the picture in Shatzi's "Convergence" article on the Trainers page)
A good testing technique I found was to point at the target on "Auto-level", and fire when my speed was up to normal. Use trim to fine tune your aim. At first it will probably appear that all your shots are "good", until you zoom in on it and take into account the scale/size of the target. If you want to fire inverted, I needed to manually trim my plane to get decent fairly accurate results. And getting accurate "banked" shots is tough too (to see the effect of banking on aim-point). Using opposite rudder to hold "knife-edge" actually skews your results...
You can also see the results of firing while pulling G's using that target.
MtnMan
Wonder what the average hit% is in the MA... Gunnery is more complicated than most realize.
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Looks like this one was well covered already. I personally have my guns at 200; Being that I'll try to get into turn fights with better turning planes such as Spits, I set them like that for quick snap shots. I actually have more difficult time Boom and Zooming with that close of range (so that is why i miss sometimes normally easy b/z shots) but if it turns into turn fight, I have better chance. That and I can't hit D400 too good anyway :D
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Test of P-51 D using the .target command offline.
I set all guns at 325 then tried 425. I went from 200 out to 500 out for the 325 converg but did not risk target reset by adding the 500 to the 425 converge.
It seemed the closer was better.
My test is not exact as i did rush it a bit but you will notice that at 425 the bullets were consistently cylindrical in shape while 325 was more linear and concentrated.
Last I shot from 100 above and below the plane so you could see how big the tartget really is and where the bullets would hit at that distance.
Using an F4U i received different results and like them at 375-400 staggered.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/Converge.jpg)
From top to bottom on the target i used the inside guns first then the outside then used both at the same time for the third tier down.....in case you were wondering.
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Wonder what the average hit% is in the MA...
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9706/clipboard01hq1.jpg)
Arithmetic mean was ~ 3.5%
Zazen did a similar analysis a few years earlier with basically the same results.
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:aok I'm a better shot then I thought :D 14.4 hit% for tour 102, but 389 fighter rank. So why such crappy rank with such good hit % ?
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Uptown4 ,You flew 35 sorties and got 31 kills with only three deaths, Very good but it took you forever to get them. Your score says you fight scared when in fighter mode and pick from alt possibly taking on bombers only when there are others around to be used as bait. Just a guess but i bet I'm right on. Another word for scared might be cautious or smart.
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MtnMan, I believe bullets "live" about 1.2k or so at low alt. With the thinner air up at alt, they travel further. I'm not sure if they have a "timer" or if they expire after passing below a hitting-power-threshhold or whatever. Note cannon rounds (especially larger cannons, 37mm for example) "live" longer. I have sniped B-17s at 25k in a yak9T at almost 2k range, and landed hits. Took a lot of trial and error and wasted a lot of my ammo but I popped one of the B-17s' wings off from outside range of their guns.
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Well .. as the great ones said .. fill your windscreen with the enemy . . fly close to your man ..then of course he will go down.
I set all my guns at 250 .. as has been said, now an then I will send some rounds out there to see if the guy will turn . . if he wont, I will work on a wing root with one set of guns (right or left wing, as the other wings guns will be off target entirely).
I've always found the better I shoot .. .the less I have to manuever -evil grin-
(my direct quote from the lil brown books of Air Warrior long ago)
-GE
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Uptown4 ,You flew 35 sorties and got 31 kills with only three deaths, Very good but it took you forever to get them. Your score says you fight scared when in fighter mode and pick from alt possibly taking on bombers only when there are others around to be used as bait. Just a guess but i bet I'm right on. Another word for scared might be cautious or smart.
well, that's pretty much sums it up :lol :cry :salute
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MtnMan, I believe bullets "live" about 1.2k or so at low alt. With the thinner air up at alt, they travel further. I'm not sure if they have a "timer" or if they expire after passing below a hitting-power-threshhold or whatever. Note cannon rounds (especially larger cannons, 37mm for example) "live" longer. I have sniped B-17s at 25k in a yak9T at almost 2k range, and landed hits. Took a lot of trial and error and wasted a lot of my ammo but I popped one of the B-17s' wings off from outside range of their guns.
I suppose different ammo may "live" longer. In my most recent tests I was able to get hits on the dot target at 1050yds at 100ft ASL, 1110yds at 7500ft, and didn't feel like going any higher. I wasn't able to get hits at ranges greater than those at those alts. I started with the target further out (on auto-pilot) and brought it in in small increments (5-10 yds) until I could get a few marks on the paper.
I also took some screenshots to show the effect of firing at convergence vs beyond convergence. Here's a picture of my plane super-imposed over the target, to show size relationship.
(http://www.mediafire.com/?jpddydd0daa)
Here's a picture showing a 300yd shot at 300yd convergence, both with and without my plane in the picture.
http://www.mediafire.com/?laxjdl5xqex (http://www.mediafire.com/?laxjdl5xqex)
http://www.mediafire.com/?alblai5l5ze (http://www.mediafire.com/?alblai5l5ze)
And a 600yd shot with convergence set to 300yd. Note instead of a nice solid group, the pattern is divided into two points, which are also "looser", and in this case are also hitting 5-6ft low. Even if you raise your point of aim, you'll still miss with far more bullets, (even if your aim is correct) due to the greater spread. Also note that in-game performance will be less than these shots suggest, since you'll both be maneuvering. Group size increases with range, even if you have your convergence set further out. This will make hits more likely, but make catastrophic damage less likely (with bullets). Hitting closer targets with closer convergence settings can drastically increase the amount/percentage of bullets hitting the target. It gives the visual effect of hitting the target but not killing it, leading some to doubt the effectiveness of their bullets.
http://www.mediafire.com/?oxa5heeexwd (http://www.mediafire.com/?oxa5heeexwd)
MtnMan
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(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9706/clipboard01hq1.jpg)
Arithmetic mean was ~ 3.5%
Zazen did a similar analysis a few years earlier with basically the same results.
Thank you sir!
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MtnMan, with LOD distances you may land hits but be too far to see the hit sprites.
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MtnMan, with LOD distances you may land hits but be too far to see the hit sprites.
Nope. I had at least 4-5 1000 yard kills this camp with .50 cals and could see the hit sprites every time. You do have to "pour it on" though.
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Staggered convergence just doesn't work as well in AHII
I agree. The one exception being the 262. I put one set of guns far out and one pretty close in to get a "shotgun" effect, seems to work pretty well in the jet where concentrated firepower is not a necessity. Can't remember the distances i use.
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I have all of my air to air aircraft with wing mounted weapons, regardless of caliber, converging at 350. The only exceptions are those planes I go bomber hunting with, they are set to 650.
I have all of the aircraft with center mounted weapons I will stretch them all the way out to 650 (Mossi/P38/109). If I have a "combo" aircraft with both center and wing mounted guns the setting is at 350.
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MtnMan, with LOD distances you may land hits but be too far to see the hit sprites.
I was measuring using the .target, and moving it in closer after I shot at it to check for "holes". LOD would not be a factor, from what I can tell. The bullets didn't get to the target at ranges greater than I mentioned. And they didn't go under it either. Lots of hits at 1100 yds, at 7500ft, a few at 1110, but none at 1120. I was flying on auto-level, with the sight in the center of the bullseye, and zoomed all the way in. I simply moved the target in and out by typing...