Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: vega on December 22, 2001, 01:42:00 PM
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We all know the reason that HiTech put killshooter into operation in WarBirds and carried it into Aces High. Yes, there was, and still could be, a problem with immature and irresponsible freaks just blasting their own guys for the simple fun of creating havoc in the game. No doubt these individuals are still around.
But we don't need killshooter to eliminate the problem. We already have messages coming up in our faces about profanity and too much stick wiggling. The same technology could send a similar warning to someone (and eventually throw them off) if they persist in shooting up their own side.
One of our guys spent nearly a month getting 200 perk pts. to fly the Me262. He finally goes out and flys the jet, but just as he squeezes the trigger somebody tries to steal his kill and pops down in front of him.....causing his 262 to be destroyed by killshooter. This, to me, is patently wrong. If anyone deserved to be a victim of friendly fire, it was this kill-vulcher. Friendly fire is a fact of war; look at recent news from Afghanistan.
We say get rid of killshooter and solve the problem with the msg and boot system used for profanity, etc. Then the game is more realistic and prevents the stealing of kills that are continuing, unchecked.
(http://www.bombergroup.com/bg/DHBGcard.jpg)
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First, if someone "popped down in front of a 262"... the 262 pilot was definately doing something wrong.
Secondly... you take a single incident... or even a few indidents and use it as a reason to do away with a system that prevents several thousand incidents.
AKDejaVu
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why don't we have the one that TFC uses? ie. when you shoot a friendly, no damage is applied to the shooter, or the person taking hits
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Originally posted by BenDover:
why don't we have the one that TFC uses? ie. when you shoot a friendly, no damage is applied to the shooter, or the person taking hits
Because then every dweeb out there will try to steal your kill by spraying wildly all around you, just as you finally get a firing solution on a bandit that you chased down from 20K.
If you want to have everyone able to blast away with impunity, that is exactly what they will be doing. NO THANKS!
There is nothing I hate more than seeing 5 sets of tracers go flying past me as I am trying to shot down an enemy plane.
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Because then every dweeb out there will try to steal your kill by spraying wildly all around you, just as you finally get a firing solution on a bandit that you chased down from 20K.
Make it that when you hit a friendly, you can't shoot for 10 seconds. No more spraying dweebs shooting over your shoulder, no more accidental deaths... any drawback?
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if someone "popped down in front of a 262"... the 262 pilot was definately doing something wrong.
Obviously not, any diving plane, another 262, etc.
Vega, agree 100% with you. IMO, actual kill shooter is one of the worst features present in AH. A possible "fix" to the problem would be empying the shooting plane ammo. That is, you hit a friend, your ammo counter drops to 0 with no other effect.
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Heh Mando, te gané por 3 minutos ;)
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Originally posted by vega:
We all know the reason that HiTech put killshooter into operation ........ No doubt these individuals are still around.
One of our guys spent nearly a month getting 200 perk pts. to fly the Me262. He finally goes out and flys the jet, but just as he squeezes the trigger somebody tries to steal his kill and pops down in front of him.....causing his 262 to be destroyed by killshooter. This, to me, is patently wrong. [/IMG]
And just what is going to be gained by making it easy for some bozo to kill your 200 perk point plane and only risk getting a
WARNING :rolleyes:
At least you have control over your own trigger. In the entire time Ive flown AH (since the beta mind you), I've killed myself a max of 10 times with killshooter, and half of those times where about a year ago when there was an entire squad of morons that would park their GVs in enemy hangers.
Sure its not perfect, but it prevents:
A dweeb killing his countryman because he is ignorant a dildo or both
Bozo firing through you, near you, whatever, making you lose the con your saddled up on because you have to check 6 to see if them tracers are NME
Endless flames, whines and squeaking
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How much fun would AH be if killshooter was off and a dweeb was in a field ack while an enemy raid was inbound, someone who wanted to stop furballers from furballing or furballers who couldn't wait to go to an enemy field.
There was a cartoon about killshooter on this BBS some time back that explained why killshooter was on very well. (can' find it yet but looking still)
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Been flying AH for about a year and I killed myself twice with kill-shooter. The last time this happened I was shooting a con with a hovering friendly in between and I knew the risk very well I was taking.
Broes
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The killshooter feature works nicely as it is.
Should be a serious penalty for blasting carelessly into friendly planes.
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While I understand the reasoning behind killshooter, I cannot agree with its affects. Lately, it has happened to me over several days, and three times in one afternoon. It is a royal pain in the arse, especially when I turn out to be the victim. There are dweebs who think nothing of flying directly of you when you are on an nmez tail firing away. These guys do not respond after you die either; they knew exactly what they were doing and didnt get the short end of it. It is not ALWAYS due to spraying and praying when a person gets shot down due to killshooter. Somehow the person who causes this to happen ought to be penalized, and not just the one who gets blown up.
The argument that every dweeb then will go hogwild and shoot countrymen down can also be applied here. What is to prevent dweebs from diving down and flying in front of another to steal a kill knowing that killshooter will affect the other guy? IMO, it can and ought to be adjusted.
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Both you and 98 mention good options. Which means they'll be ignored, undoubtedly. ;)
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Vega, agree 100% with you. IMO, actual kill shooter is one of the worst features present in AH. A possible "fix" to the problem would be emptying the shooting plane's ammo. That is, if you hit a friend your ammo counter drops to 0 with no other effect.
Originally posted by DA98:
Make it that when you hit a friendly you can't shoot for 10 seconds. No more spraying dweebs shooting over your shoulder, no more accidental deaths... any drawback?
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So tell me again how that solves anything at all Arlo...
Then we would have to put up with constant whines about a guy flying in front of you and keeping you from shooting a con. This would be just as bad as kill stealing. For example, you see a friendly chasing a con, you swoop in front of said friendly taking fire from said friendly. Said friendly will be forced to stop shooting or will have all his ammo taken. You are then free to shoot down the con without worrying about your buddy that you just swooped in front of killing himself with killshooter.
What exactly does this solve?
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Having problems with killshooter? Start working on your SA. You should NEVER be so focussed on a kill that you don't check your six. If you are doing so you will see the friendly that is swooping in to steal your kill. What do you do then? Ease off the trigger and wait for the dweeb to miss his pass and then you can finish off your kill at your leisure.
I have only died from KS once when I took a front quarter shot at an enemy being chased by a squaddy. I knew he was there but I still took the shot, missed the con and nailed my squaddy, sending me down in flames. I have no problem with that, my fault for missing my shot.
Killshooter is the best compromise I think we will see. Look around you once in a while when saddled up on a bad guy and you won't suffer from it. I have regularly flown within feet of other friendlies when taking shots and not had problems...
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Oh yeah, getting killed because someone got in front of you to steal a kill is a much better option than either of those. (Solves dying from someone else's mistake or selfish tactic - even if it costs you the kill.) Besides, since when has anyone jumping in front to get the kill ever WORRIED about killshooter? Don't all the practitioners of that tactic all speak up at once, now. :)
But if you have an option you want to share ...
Originally posted by sling322:
So tell me again how that solves anything at all Arlo...
Then we would have to put up with constant whines about a guy flying in front of you and keeping you from shooting a con. This would be just as bad as kill stealing. For example, you see a friendly chasing a con, you swoop in front of said friendly taking fire from said friendly. Said friendly will be forced to stop shooting or will have all his ammo taken. You are then free to shoot down the con without worrying about your buddy that you just swooped in front of killing himself with killshooter.
What exactly does this solve?
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I dont see anything here that is better then killshooter.
Warnings are out of the question. The 262 in question would be dead and a warning issued? I think Vega would be more pissed about that.
The current system puts an over whelming onus on the shooter to be sure he is clear to fire. How can we make it better then that?
I have died enough times to kill shooter. 90% of the time I had not timed it quite right and paid the price.
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I did share my option Arlo....the current system works just fine. Like Mako said, if you arent situationally aware enough to not see the guy swooping into your line of fire, then perhaps another game is better for you...something like Tetris maybe. :)
The only time killshooter has ever killed me is when I do it on purpose to scare the toejam out of a squaddie and accidentally hit him...or when I drop bombs and happen to hit a friendly ground vehicle parked in a hangar or something.
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LOL sling, Tetris! I can see the Tetris-shooter whines now: "That green block jumped in front of my red block when I was about to land it! Waaaaaaaaah!" :D
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Hell, just turn it off altogether. The guy persuing his kill shouldn't hafta add in friendly obstructions to his SA equation unless it's a bonafide furball, that's silly. The guy thinking he can slip in there and take the kill when it's clearly a situation under control should. Running into your stream should be penalty enough for such behavior.
Frag happy kids on the rampage? I think there's a better solution there as well.
"Frag me once, shame on you .... frag me twice ..." ;)
(ShruG - try it for a week ... if you're not 100% completely satisfied with the product then whine until it's turned back on.) :D
Disclaimer: Just a suggestion - don't make more of it than that.
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Arlo,
wait until you see a good MA furball.
Most of these guys whining about KS are usualy to be seen at 2 feet off the deck as # 4 or 5 in a gang banging conga line.
Ignore them, pass them over and look for a fight in place of a kill, and suddenly KS isn't a problem.
I've been killed ONCE by KS in almost a year - and I'm virtualy the worst virtual shot in this virtual universe.
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Good point, my opinion needs physical verification. :(
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Only time I've died killshooter is whe I've been protecting a bomber and the tgt gets between me & said buff I'm supposed to save (not shoot :).
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Just quoting Ben. This is actually probably the best option ... for those that want an option (if it also means the ability to shoot through to the target, maybe even better).
Some may say it's better ... some may say it's better than nothing .... some may not. Lord knows if there's a way to abuse the system, experienced simmers/gamers CAN and WILL find it. :D
*ShruG*
Originally posted by BenDover:
why don't we have the one that TFC uses? ie. when you shoot a friendly, no damage is applied to the shooter, or the person taking hits
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Arlo ]
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Originally posted by sling322:
So tell me again how that solves anything at all Arlo...
Then we would have to put up with constant whines about a guy flying in front of you and keeping you from shooting a con. This would be just as bad as kill stealing. For example, you see a friendly chasing a con, you swoop in front of said friendly taking fire from said friendly. Said friendly will be forced to stop shooting or will have all his ammo taken. You are then free to shoot down the con without worrying about your buddy that you just swooped in front of killing himself with killshooter.
What exactly does this solve?
This is happening a fair bit already. I'm seeing a few players use it as a tactic a bit too frequently to be coincidence. But then that's one of the fundamental flaws of killshooter...it always assumes the shooter is at fault and applies a VERY extreme penalty on the heals of that.
Killshooter also serves to penalize people with marginal network connections or low to mid end systems. Stopping dweebs from firing blindly is not something any tool can do. After all, that happens now, a lot. Killshooter does nothing to prevent dweebs from being dweebs. Heck, most new comers probably have no idea it even exists. And it definitely doesn't prevent folks from getting your kill. Quite the contrary actually, its a handy tool to ensure they get it. After all its very hard for you to kill anything if you just shot yourself down. For more experienced players it can be an effective means by which they can grief...and it is certainly used as such. In short, a whole lot of bad for little to no good.
The problem is that you really only have two viable options; 1) do away with it entirely (I prefer this one) or, 2) make the effects of the tool a bit more representative of the underlying causes (i.e. most instances are absent of malice). If you're going with #2 the fact of the matter is I shouldn't be killed because someone is trying to block me; nor should another fella be killed because his network connection is a tad slow; or his gear isn't top end and FPS' aren't quite up to snuff. And no he shouldn't be killed for just being a dweeb and firing a bit wildly either.
There's much better ways of doing this not the least of which is DA98's recommendation of losing guns for a short period (register a message in chat window too, similar to kill messages). You can also implement a 2-4 second blackout...although since the blackout model here is actually greyouts (i.e. you can still fly and shoot when fully "blacked out") DA98's suggestion is likely the better of the two. I think taking ammo away, or anything that takes away your ability to fight that flight, really isn't the way to go. It is, after all, just a different flavour of what is in place now.
Granted #2 doesn't completely prevent griefs from being griefs, although it does make the tactic a lot less effective since the shooter stays alive. And warps will still from mess your shot, or that clunky old video card will still wheeze past 12 FPS...and dweebs will still be dweebs (like you're going to change that with this anyway, right? ;-> ). What it does do though is tone the severity down a bit and make it so there is still a penalty, just not as severe.
A good middle ground that's a whole lot more practical imo.
Vortex
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Vortex ]
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Originally posted by Seeker:
Most of these guys whining about KS are usualy to be seen at 2 feet off the deck as # 4 or 5 in a gang banging conga line.
Yup. If you aren't trying to kill a con while in the middle of 5 friendlies chasing down 1 poor enemy sod then KS shouldn't ever affect you.
Removing KS or making it less painful to the shooter will just encourage more of the banging conga line approach. Every time you saddle up on someone you will have dweebs spraying wildly past you to get the kill you are about to make. This IMO is much worse than getting punished occasionally for having bad SA.
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In AW, we had PNG (Persona Non Grata) for friendly fragging incidents. If you shot down more than two friendlies, you couldn't take off with any ammo for 24 hours. After the 2nd friendly frag, each kill after that was an additional 24 hours. I'm sure that after the first 24 PNG ban, people will start to get more disciplined in their shooting. I know I did after my 1st and only PNG ban.
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The shooter is always at fault. There is not a single instance of killshooter failure listed here that the shooter could not have avoided by paying attention to his surroundings.
I'll join the occasional happy train flying in circles at 500 feet. If I want a shot there are real consequences if I'm not paying attention to the other 4 people chasing that con, and not for them, but for me. I screw up, I die, and that's the way I like it.
I'm not sure where this network connection theory came in. You must still shoot a plane on your FE to be damaged by killshooter, if that plane is lagging behind it's real position or is in its true position you still need only not shoot where it appears to your system. If it is so bad that planes are warping all over the place, well, frankly that's too bad.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
The shooter is always at fault. There is not a single instance of killshooter failure listed here that the shooter could not have avoided by paying attention to his surroundings.
I'll join the occasional happy train flying in circles at 500 feet. If I want a shot there are real consequences if I'm not paying attention to the other 4 people chasing that con, and not for them, but for me. I screw up, I die, and that's the way I like it.
I'm not sure where this network connection theory came in. You must still shoot a plane on your FE to be damaged by killshooter, if that plane is lagging behind it's real position or is in its true position you still need only not shoot where it appears to your system. If it is so bad that planes are warping all over the place, well, frankly that's too bad.
That's not at all true Fatty.
I had a perfect example of a network blip doing exactly this. Insofar as the FE goes, you're dead wrong I'm afraid. The focal point is the server, THAT'S where the planes exist in the virtual sense. There's 1001 ways data can be lost, corrupted, delayed etc in relaying that info back to your FE.
Since I have to act from what MY FE shows me if I don't get proper data relay betwen the server and myself that is precisely where these problems arrise the plane. Case in point. I'm in guns range of a Lanc. The closest plane to me is a friendly P51 closing slowly from 500 yds back. I open up, and on the heals of that the P51 warps directly in front of me. This was instantanious. One second I have a clear shot at the buff, the next there's a P51 50 yards in front of me taking pings from my guns, immediately followed by my death. There was no movement of the plane in, nothing. Just wham, he was there.
These are not that uncommon in busy areas.
On the issue of it simply being "too bad", well, *shrug* that's indeed a given It adds nothing to the discussion mind you, but it states the obvious quite well which is always good I guess.
The fact still remains there's much better ways to implement this tool.
Vortex
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How about this: have a relatively large hit bubble for friendly to friendly shots. Have the hit bubble absorb all friendly shots with no damage to anyone, but don't let them pass thru to an nme; in fact don't allow them to even pass the friendly- so he doesn't even see the tracers. The only complaint this would not address, I believe, is the one of someone "stealing" a kill by getting in front of you as you saddle up a target. Well... if he got in front of you, closer to the enemy, well then... it's his target now, isn't it?
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Welll if not for killshooter lately I can think of more than one case where a friendly (NEW PLAYER) saddled up on me and proceeded to shoot me down.
It gave me a chuckle to watch the poor bastards wing come off and spin in....but if there was no killshooter I would have been the victim....and could have potentially lost 200 perk points.
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Not at all true Vortex, or just not what you want to hear?
Insofar as the FE goes, you're dead wrong I'm afraid. The focal point is the server, THAT'S where the planes exist in the virtual sense. There's 1001 ways data can be lost, corrupted, delayed etc in relaying that info back to your FE.
This is simply not the case. You can continue to argue as if it were, but it's not. (I'm sure there are tons of cases of people shooting down enemies when they've merely shot bullets into clear blue sky :rolleyes :)
Warps are going to happen, but anecdotal and hypothetical whatifs or it happened onces are no reason to trash a very good working system and put something in that could account for every crappy connection someone can come up with.
Of course maintaining the status quo adds nothing (there's a profound observation), but more to the point it doesn't take anything away.
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With the huge gang bangs that are now common place in the MA, I think we need a severe penalty for shooting a friendly. Otherwise, everyone in the conga line will be blasting away. I vote to keep Killshooter as it is.
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>>The shooter is always at fault. There is not a single instance of killshooter failure listed here that the shooter could not have avoided by paying attention to his surroundings.<<
Moose Cookies!!!
But in the absence of anything else then just leave KS as it is.
To make a statment such as the above is pure crap IMO, especially if you aren't the one in the situation. Even though you are unable to envision this happening to others, I assure you it can and does. Imagine if you will, being locked on at 300 to 400 feet and firing away. It is a sure kill and you are NOT going to (or shouldnt) stop shooting so you can check your 6 for friendlies diving in front of you.Then, some dweeb drops down from 5k above you, knowing the other guy is closer,with the intent of getting the kill on the guy you are saddled up on. It happens a lot, it sucks and shouldn't happen at all. I submit to those who it hasn't happened to, that it may happen one day, or it probably will.
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It's happened to most of us, Don. The difference being most of our reactions are, "Man, I should have been paying attention, what an idiot I am."
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Don, using your example:
You are 300 or 400 feet or yards from a target and firing at him. There is a con 5K above you. The friendly dives down with the intent of stealing your kill.
The time it takes for him to get between you and the enemy, you should of already killed the enemy.
The speed he is going to close 5K in a few seconds means he won't have a shot anyway, and I dunno how you managed to just accidently shoot him.
Either way, killshooter is as good as it gets right now.
Fatty spelled it out perfectly.
-SW
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Originally posted by Don:
Imagine if you will, being locked on at 300 to 400 feet and firing away. It is a sure kill and you are NOT going to (or shouldnt) stop shooting so you can check your 6 for friendlies diving in front of you.Then, some dweeb drops down from 5k above you, knowing the other guy is closer,with the intent of getting the kill on the guy you are saddled up on.
Imagine, if you will, that that dweeb 5k above you is an enemy rather than a friendly. You would still be dead. Why? Because you didn't check your six because you were target fixated. You should never be so intent on getting a kill that you lose track of what is going on around you. When you do, whose fault is it?
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Originally posted by skernsk:
Welll if not for killshooter lately I can think of more than one case where a friendly (NEW PLAYER) saddled up on me and proceeded to shoot me down.
It gave me a chuckle to watch the poor bastards wing come off and spin in....but if there was no killshooter I would have been the victim....and could have potentially lost 200 perk points.
LOL so true. Over the time I have flown WB's and nmow AH, I have had several new players fly up behind me spraying like mad. And on the runway too. Seen GV shooting at their own teammates in AC rolling down the runway.
Killshooter is a neccessity, not a drawback or flaw'ed tool. I have died to it only 2 time in AH that I can remember. One of those times were recently when I was all over this con and to my surprise :rollseyes: our little one on one had drew the attention of many other teammates.
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Originally posted by vega:
[QB]We all know the reason that HiTech put killshooter [QB]
I can see the arguements for and against the killshooter.
I dont know that kill stealing is such a problem, but certainly firing thru a freindly should be discouraged IMHO.
Alas I have also fallen foul of Kill shooter as a faster "freindly" flies thru my aircraft from some rear quarter and into my bullet stream.
I would prefer a wave file (like "check 6") linked to hits on freindlies that runs instead of your AC taking damage.
If it could be made to run when your bullet stream is even only in the locality of a freindly then it would be even more helpful.
So what would we like this file to say?? :rolleyes:
Tilt
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FWIW, i think killshooter should affect *both* the shooter and the shootee.
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What was the real life penalty for shooting down a friendly or ally?
Model THAT first, then change or turn off kill shooter.
Westy
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Originally posted by Tilt:
So what would we like this file to say??
Tilt
TARD ALERT! TARD ALERT!
:confused:
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I think a better solution would be to put some kind of "hit counter" for the killshooter. Say, if X # of rounds hit a friendly, killshooter "activates" and blows up the offender. Otherwise, both planes are undamaged. This would prevent the problem of people flying in front of you to steal your kill and having YOU getting killshot!
Example:
green1 following red1 , distance is d400.
Green2 barges in to steal the kill, flies in front of green1 and starts shooting at red1.
Green1 was firing MG's when green2 dived in and hit green2. The game counts how many bullets hit green2. Count is below the X #, no killshooter happens.
Later on green2 is a bigger jerk and thinks its funny to shoot his own side, he fires a good burst at a friendly, count is above X #, he gets killshot.
It would also be very usefull if friendly collisions were ENABLED above 800ft. Below 800ft they'd have to be disabled to accomodate people landing and taxiing or large groups taking off together, but above 800 , they would collide.
This would also prevent the "fly through friendly plane" to steal the kill AND killshoot the guy he's stealing the kill from.
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Originally posted by Tac:
[QB]It would also be very usefull if friendly collisions were ENABLED above 800ft. QB]
I like this idea.....
Would make gang banging a little more hazardous...... whilst most gang banging occurs on the deck the participants could not always ensure they were below 800..
Unfortunately we will then have "kill collider" arguements
Tilt
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Originally posted by Tac:
It would also be very usefull if friendly collisions were ENABLED above 800ft. Below 800ft they'd have to be disabled to accomodate people landing and taxiing or large groups taking off together, but above 800 , they would collide.
This would also prevent the "fly through friendly plane" to steal the kill AND killshoot the guy he's stealing the kill from.
I would agree with this. I don't really think its a good way to go mind you, however I do think that if one supports KS in its present form one has to support collisions among countrymen other than when your wheels are on the runway. After all, as some have argued here if there are no factors whatsoever that are out of your control wrt shooting, the same must be said wrt to positioning your plane in the relative sense. As with your guns, you should be equally responsible for where your plane flies, regardless of what anyone else around you does.
It would be interesting to try this for a camp.
Vortex
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Well tilt, as it is now the FE reports collisions if YOUR FE detects a collision.
From my experience, 100% of the times I hit an enemy plane from any angle but from MY behind, I die.
When enemy planes hit my 6, they die. Because their FE smashed their plane into mine, while my FE showed their plane at d20 or so.
Ive only been able to "force" an enemy to collide with me once. And that was a lancaster flying level while my plane zoomed up d30 from its nose at low speed.. the lanc "flew" into my plane and blew up, while I was unharmed. And it was damn hard to set it up, and that was with a lanc flying straight :)
This is also why people with high-speed connects almost always lose HO's :)
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Actual kill-shooter is simply absurd and a nonsense, any new idea is wellcome.