Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jekyll on February 02, 2001, 04:56:00 AM
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Yeah, I know its been posted about time and again.
But this is getting beyond a joke! Was up in my P51 tonight defending 34. Flew past the CV group and dived towards the cons low over our field. Once I was heading away from the CV, the ack opened up, followed me all the way to my hard deck of about 2000 feet.
Here I am, extending away from the CV till I reach a point where it is no longer even visible to me (probably D15 or so), and the ack is still bursting all around me.
It finally removed half my right wing.
Of course, being Aces High, I was able to fly my 1 1/2 wing Mustang safely back to base, at treetop height at a speed of around 390mph. (Funny, always thought the stang was slower than that on the deck).
So, I suppose there are 3 parts to this 'whine'.
1. Fleet Ack, currently ridiculous. If WW2 CV ack had been as deadly as this there would have been no need for CAP's.
2. Flight model - flying 50 miles on 1 1/2 wings? 'nuff said
3. Drag Model - since when can an aircraft with 1 1/2 wings fly faster than a complete aircraft? This needs SERIOUS work. If the drag model is wrong, what else in this friggin game is stuffed.
I'm convinced that one day, long in the future, someone from HTC is going to take a good look at the FM's and declare, "WTF is this decimal point doing here?"
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2. Flight model - flying 50 miles on 1 1/2 wings? 'nuff said
Missing half wing is only an abstraction of damage. It might have been only some hole in the wing but since it cannot be presented by AH graphics engine it shows missing wingtip.
3. Drag Model - since when can an aircraft with 1 1/2 wings fly faster than a complete aircraft? This needs SERIOUS work. If the drag model is wrong, what else in this friggin game is stuffed.
I dont know if the plane can go faster with missing parts but something must be done for drag figures of damaged parts!!! Plane with wing full of holes will not go very fast!
WWIIOL models this so why can't we?
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Jekyll -
There's nothing wrong with the ack, it's just that people seem to think that they can fly a lone fighter against radar guided proximity fused AAA that will kill with one hit. The difference in "deadliness" that you experience is because ships in WWII had hundreds of targets, while in your case there was only one.
A tip for the masses: the worst thing you can do when encountering fleet flak is to manuver. The ack hits everywhere but your plane, so if you manuver you're likely to stumble into a burst and die.
Jochen was right about the FM, the reason planes with wing damage are flyable is because missing wingtips is the AH rendering of extreme wing damage, meaning that the plane is not impossible but more difficult to fly as long as you keep the speed up.
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Oh yeah, I've seen several Zekes flying and fighting while on fire, I mean completely on fire, after a burst of my cannons. Does it mean the zeke pilot was only lighting a cigarette?
Jokes apart: please, remove this wingtip/halfwing bug from the DM or make those halfwing fighters unflyable. You know, some of us rely on damages we see on the target.
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So spectrex, you think its fine that CV ack can track and hit me at ranges where I'm so far from the CV that it is no longer visible?
An 'Essex' class carrier is about 861 feet long. So when I am at a range where I can no longer see that 861 foot carrier, its ack can still track a 36 foot wingspan aircraft???
At the time, the CV was offshore from A34. I would guess about 3 miles offshore. I was flying inland, and was at least 5 miles inland at the time I was hit. 5" ack can track and hit a fighter sized target at minimum 8 mile range?
Jochen, according to HT's P51 chart, it should travel at about 355mph on the deck and 363 mph on the deck with WEP.
My 1 1/2 wing Mustang was doing around 390mph on the deck with NO WEP. For 50 miles!
It 'seems' that when you lose parts from the airframe, you also lose the drag associated with those parts.
A Mustang with only half a wing on each side would be an absolute rocket!
Personally, I would love to see the FM issues dealt with before we worried about Tempests, Fw190D9's and Blitz Bombers.
But that's just MY opinion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Specterx:
Jekyll -
There's nothing wrong with the ack...
Well I'll tell you one thing wrong. When your in a fur ball over the CV and the ack bursts are going off all around you the GIGANTIC shotgun blasts miraculously only damage the enemy aircraft. Funny how an indiscriminate explosion can do that with an enemy pinned to your butt. Seems to me that both planes would be taking a bit of a beating. Other wise I agree. A lone aircraft over the CV would be vulnerable. A lone aircraft 8.5 miles away from the CV wouldn't be. 8.5 miles is over 3/4 of the max range of the longer range WWII 5in guns (5" C38 18,200yrds= 10.3 miles). Radar guided and all that's a long way to be accurately placing rounds on a 390mph aircraft.
Those guns were still using the human tracking system not a computer. They had the benefit of radar telling them an accurate speed and distance. Reaction time and human error still played a factor. The human still had to place the gun at the proper angle to match the radar data. I think a reduction in accuracy at ranges near max is in order.
Don't get me wrong. On the over all AH is doing great. It's just my pet peeve.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-02-2001).]
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Agree with the friendly fire issue, Jimdandy.
5" should kill anything within its blast radius. And substract perk points if the gunner kills a friendly.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I can't hit any plane with 5" beyond d5.0 . But the AI ack hits 100% way beyond that range, so to me the accuracy of the AI cg ack seems pretty ridiculous .
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What Jekyll said, there are some drag and FM issues that need to be looked at. And yes, the CV ack is ridiculous at long range. Of course since we don't have any numbers to prove that wingless planes aren't faster, the cheerleaders will be in here shortly with their pom-poms.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
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boiyoiyoing
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jochen:
WWIIOL models this so why can't we?
WWIIOL Doesn't model this, because for me it doesn't exist.
When it's in open beta, THEN people can start bragging about crap that WWIIOL has that AH doesn't.
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Dont have much of an issue with CV ack lethality nor with the abstract damage modeling only showing half a wing.
What I do agree with, however, is how planes missing parts actually have LESS drag than they do with em. I've been outsped by a F4 on the deck level missing half a wing and I was in a super light P51 (less than 1/4 tank). Chased him for 1 sector and continued to pull ahead.
Likewise, I've been chased with parts missing and found my plane flew FASTER than without. Thats screwy and just plain wrong.
-Ding
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I had the ultimate example of the 'parts/drag missing' problem last night.
Was flying a P47D-30 and attacked a B26 near our port. I blew the pass and the buff removed BOTH my wingtips, complete with ailerons.
I had to use rudder to return to base and I had that Jug up to 405 mph level on the deck (no wep) on the way back. Fortunately, the flaps were still functioning, so I used rudder to line up on the runway and made a perfect 3 pointer at about 135 mph. One of the best Jug landings I've ever done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
405 on the deck for a Jug?
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I dont mean this a putdown to HTC, but maube this AH FM isnt as high-end and realistic as advertised?
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I dont mean this a putdown to HTC, but maube this AH FM isnt as high-end and realistic as advertised?
The engine IS about a year old.
I haven't actually noticed a problem here, unless your going over 300 mph (i.e. enough to retain aircraft stability) I quickly loose control of and crash a plane with a missing wing or wingtip.
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I have nothing against the CV AAA lethality, but it is far too accurate. Someone wrote that AAA ammunition does not travel at all from the CV, it just appears at the target. IRL your could make hard evasives and the AAA gunners would have to guess where you are flying. Now this guessing does not happen since ammo travel time is zero (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
E.g. Rudel wrote how AAA would explode behind his ju-87 when he was diving fast at target. It takes time to set the fuses, load and fire.
Could we have this delay modelled someway?
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http://www.ropescourse.org/TBF.jpg (http://www.ropescourse.org/TBF.jpg)
Look familiar? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have nothing against the CV AAA lethality, but it is far too accurate. Someone wrote that AAA ammunition does not travel at all from the CV, it just appears at the target. IRL your could make hard evasives and the AAA gunners would have to guess where you are flying. Now this guessing does not happen since ammo travel time is zero
Ever seen the tracers going towards your plane? Ammo travel time is not zero. If you're referring to the 5" weapons, you can actually see the shells leave the gun - again ammo travel time is not zero, if someone hits you it's because the gunner leads their shots.
E.g. Rudel wrote how AAA would explode behind his ju-87 when he was diving fast at target. It takes time to set the fuses, load and fire.
Could we have this delay modelled someway?
The type of ammunition used in AH is proximity fused. This means that it has a tiny radar transmitter that automatically detonates the shell when it gets within a certain range of an object. The loading delay (i.e. the time it takes to insert a shell in the breech) is also modelled, if you'll notice.
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It takes between 2 and 5 seconds, when firing manually from the 5 inch guns, to hit anything past 2.5k. It takes between 5-10 seconds for a shot to explode/hit from 3.5k to 6k.
So yer telling me the radar guided 5 inch guns are also telepathic?
There's really no way they could track you at all if doing anykind of manuverability -- they'd have to be phsychicly leading you by about 7 or so seconds when out of icon range of the fleet in order to hit. Now figure how far a fighter moving at 250mph+ can move in that amount of time...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Neeeeeigh.
-- Bessy
(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
Fire from the bowels, Nomads own the latrines
www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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You must have rocks in your head to think that a gun or guns on a pitching deck of a moving boat firing at a fighter who is over 5 miles away flying at over 250mph and is jinking and diving and even getting near it much less killing it. just the mear factor of shell travel would make that impossible. much less all that other crap.
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I was referring to 5" weapons controlled by the players, which are the only ones that we can measure in terms of shell travel time, etc.
For those who still desire an explanation, this is probably what happens: for every puff we see, there are 4-6 additional shells that fly past us but are too far away to detonate. There is thus always a "box" of fire and shells flying past us out to several hundred yards away, it simply looks the way it does because only the shells which pass close enough to the aircraft explode.
The reality is nobody here has actually experienced an AAA barrage from a WWII-era US fleet, so we can't make judgements about the accuracy of weapons unless it is obviously unrealistic, a 100% hit rate or something like that.
I suggest you guys take a look at films of US flak batteries shooting down V1's. Those are many miles away from the batteries and going at about 400mph. Both AH guns and the batteries in the films are on stable platforms (yes, ships pitch and roll in RL, but not in AH). Look how quickly the targets are destroyed.
[This message has been edited by Specterx (edited 02-10-2001).]
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With regards to dmage on wing etc being abstract - it ain't.
You either have the wing, or you don't. Your aileron either works, or it ain't there.
Look at the discrepancies between aircaft types. The 109G10 is almost impossible to safely fly with a wingtip missing - ALWAYS. The 190 is easy to safely set down - ALWAYS.
You don't lose 35% of an aileron; ya lose it all. The damage model, as far as I have experienced, is set up in a binary way when it comes to this.
And, my g10 was outrun by a wingtipless F4U. I initially gained on him, to about d900 from d1.5, but after that he dived a bit, levelled , speed difference wwas equalized and then he just pulled away. Lost wingtip means less drag without any really negative sides it seems.
FWIW; I think AH has a very good damage and FM. These are minor issues that I'm sure HTC is aware of and will be addressing when they have the time.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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(http://snycorva.cortland.edu/~vanvalkp/img/corvette.jpg)
Not taking a position on this. Here's an "after action" report on the 345th BG attacking shipping around New Hanover and Western New Ireland in the Pacific. Enjoy.
From "Warpath Across The Pacific" by Lawrence Hickey
A Shipping Finale: February 21, 1944
The successful attacks against shipping around New Hanover and Western New Ireland were brought to a close on the 21st when a large attack force was launched against two Japanese light cruisers reported off the northwest coast of New Hanover. Shortly after take-off, the objective was changed to a convoy in the same area. Both the 38th and the 345th Bomb Groups set out on the mission, but bad weather turned back the fighter cover and all but 15 strafers from the 500th and the 501st Squadrons.
Searching through the mist and rain off the northwest coast of the island, eight of the planes found an opening in the weather and sighted a small convoy consisting of two freighters and three escort vessels. The 500th Squadron, flying in pairs, made a wide circle to the left and 1/Lts. William A. James and George C. Marshall roared in first, attacking a patrol craft and what appeared to be a destroyer.
Next came 1Lts. George Davis and Richard B. Fritzshall. They singled out a patrol craft for attack, and one of their bombs caused an explosion and fire aboard the vessel. Immediately after passing the target, Lt. Fritzshall turned to the right, passing below Davis to attack the destroyer. Davis continued straight ahead into the flash of the forward deck gun of the 3871 ton Kokai Maru, strafing all the way in. Two of his bombs exploded on or near the ship and two others threw up large geysers as they exploded in the water nearby. Flames and dense black smoke began pouring from the ship.
Davis then saw Lt. James attacking one of the escorts and followed him in strafing to cover the B-25 as it pulled away from its target. As he passed over the gunboat, Davis heard the sound of its machine guns blazing away at him. A shell penetrated the bottom of the cockpit and shattered against the radio equipment, peppering 2/Lt. Clifford H. Blake, the co-pilot, with fragments of hot metal. Although Blake was not seriously injured, the shells knocked out all of the cockpit instruments and put large holes through the right wing and rudder. Davis pulled BUGGER OFF out of the fight and waited to join up with the other planes for the return flight home..
After hitting the patrol craft with one of his bombs, Mitchell had swung around to attack the Kowa Maru which directed a steady stream of fire at him as he attacked. Two bombs skipped into the ship and exploded, spreading flames along the entire superstructure. The ship was finished off by 1/Lt John M. Kirmil of the 501st who dropped two 1000 pounders on it, scoring a direct hit. A terrific explosion followed and the ship was last seen listing an aflame from bow to stern.
Another 501st pilot, 1/Lt. Charles E. Coffman, went after one of the escorts and watched Jap seaman jump overboard as his tracers splattered the decks. His bombs were near misses, buckling the hull and lifting the submarine chaser in the water. Although damaged, it escaped. The B-25’s continued orbiting over the scene, bombing and strafing the burning an sinking vessels for several minutes. Intelligence later confirmed that only the largest escort, probably the subchaser seen below rather than a destroyer, escaped destruction.
Lt. Davis Ditches
The strafers did not escape unscathed. Three of the 501st planes flew home with damage from the vicious AA fire, while five planes from the 500th limped back towards base. Lts. James and Mitchell both turned out of a three-plane formation and landed at Finschafen with major battle damage. Davis, however, figured he could land without instruments just as easily at Dobodura and headed south alone across the Huon Gulf.
Minutes later, the left engine backfired several times and stopped. The propeller went to a flat pitch and ran away; the entire aircraft began to shake. Davis pressed the feathering button several times but nothing happened. From 700 feet the plane began a slow descent towards the sea."
<they were picked up the next day by a launch from the H.M.A.S. Paluma.>
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-10-2001).]
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"look at films of US flak batteries shooting down V1's"
V1 flew straight, and at a rather constant speed, cannot compare it to a manuevering fighter that is changing direction every second or 2.
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ah yes, did anybody mention that CV is _ridiculously_ accurate, just logged off pissed after beinjg hit @ 18K by a fleet that was barely visible manuevering and diving in a Spit
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I always try to avoid the silly laser-telepathic CV ack-ack like I usually try to avoid silly Nikis. Some days ago, 2-3 country mates were over the CV group and the ack-ack followed only me, 5+ miles away, at 18K and diving at 400mph. There are always silly things in games (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-12-2001).]
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hehe, ya dont like carrier ack? fly some H2H, for some reason since the last patch 1 round of 303 brit will reset a whole cv group yup thats right, 1 bullet, so we cant even use the CV's any more, or torps for that matter.. heck H2H is basically 104 with all the problems 105 brought and none of the benifits. CHEERS!
EDIT: OH and btw, dont get too addicted to whatever H2H game yer playin, becasue 105 brought this nice little "feature" that decides that everytime somebody joins a game that the hosts computer should totally lock up for a while, eventually someone will come in and the host will lock up forever forcing them to reboot and ending the game! I love it!! it takes over the awsome burden of deciding when you should stop playing off your shoulders!, it just politley freezes yer whole damn computer. EXCELLENT!
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Specterx:
I was referring to 5" weapons controlled by the players, which are the only ones that we can measure in terms of shell travel time, etc.
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And I was referring to the AI controlled AAA.. this so called "telepathic laser guided system".
I was recently chasing a lanc at 18k alt above A17 (ours) while two CVs were camping at some distance on its western side. I hardly saw the CVs, still they hunted me with deadly accuracy and predicted my every move and evasion.
For these AI fired shells there seems to be no travel time. They simply appear out of thin air.
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"For these AI fired shells there seems to be no travel time. They simply appear out of thin air."
That is EXACTLY what they really do, nothing actually fires them, they just appear.