Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SkyRock on September 22, 2008, 04:11:54 PM
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and charging you for it.......(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Skyrock67/fed.jpg).
Here's what RP has to say about it:
http://www.youtube.com/v/fI4tVPXlQsM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&fs=1
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(http://hoboken411.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/please-do-not-feed-the-hoboken-trolls.jpg)
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Why a troll? This is a very valid concern.
You'd be nuts if you didn't think they would be making the taxpayer foot the bill.
I think it's going to push inflation through the roof and come back to bit you in the arse.
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I think the only real effect the 'average Joe' will notice is the price of oil going north of $200 a barrel, taking the price of gasoline up with it. Food will probably inflate as well, but I don't think many other things will, the companies will just cut costs by reducing jobs.
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I think the only real effect the 'average Joe' will notice is the price of oil going north of $200 a barrel, taking the price of gasoline up with it. Food will probably inflate as well, but I don't think many other things will, the companies will just cut costs by reducing jobs.
You're silly if you think oil will go over $200 a barrel. Their would be another war very soon if it does.
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Why a troll? This is a very valid concern.
You'd be nuts if you didn't think they would be making the taxpayer foot the bill.
I think it's going to push inflation through the roof and come back to bit you in the arse.
Why a troll? Ever heard "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?
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Even though I disagree with a variety of Paul's positions, he was the only candidate who could have started to turn the ship around. The only candidate for real change, and about the only true outsider in Washington today. Crazy old Ron Paul.
Now, most American's no longer undersand the small govt. message. They find it frightening -- so called conservatives and liberals. He would have had some tough challenges even if he could have been elected. Actually, this crisis might very well have allowed him to push through change, but that ship has sailed.
So, we are stuck with two conventional Washington duds. Of the two, I obviously see Obama as the bigger dud. McCain, at the end of his Washington career, might actually work more for the country than himself. Can't say I have the same trust for Daley machine hack and top Fannie Freddie cash recipient Obama. I wonder how his expansive social programs are going to fly now? Does he have the guts to say no to his party? Didn't in Illinois, that's for sure.
I know it's that old sentimentality spiel, but anyone who would turn down an early trip home from Hanoi on principal might just rise again to the challenge. Still, not much to go on just yet -- no more from a solutions standpoint than Obama. But then, no one seems to know what to do except for Paulson, who may in fact be screwing us over even more with his Wall Street insider Constitution-be-dammed proposal. Limited time offer, call NOW!
So yeah, this sucks. But, maybe it's what we need to finally get some real change in office. Maybe an Obama presidency would be best, right about now. 4 years to deflate the Obama/Democratic myth might be worth the pain, just like it took a Bush to free many Republican minds emotionally tied to a party that ceased to exist some years ago. It's the uniparty folks, and us poor peons don't count and haven't for a while.
Given Obama's political backers (Kennedy, Pelosi, Soros, Durbin) and the party leadership in general, combined with anything approaching hard times, I seriously doubt you will see the much needed, and I'm sure demanded, fiscal restraint. He just won't be able to do it. Just say no, Barry! But, that's not why the party picked him over Hillery. Hell, they're already working to have me pay off the bad loan recipient morons who failed to understand how an ARM works in addition to the robber barons. How many extra billions to reward people who made a bad decisions and lived over their means while I was responsible and conservative in my personal life? Who the hell is going to knock a point or two off my 15 year, modest (40 percent down), low fixed rate loan on an affordable old construction house? Hey, you mean I could have been irresponsible and got a bigger house in the bargin -- damn! This socialism is great stuff I guess. Where's my frickin handout!
So yeah. Ron's popular now that he doesn't stand in the way of the chosen one (or any of the other chosen ones fielded by the uniparty). McCain might be a better short term leader, but an Obama presidency might be just what the Democrat coolaid drinkers need to see the other side of the great Washington truth. If enough of us take the red pill in 4 or 8 years, we may actually be able to get our country back.
Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix?
Morpheus: Do you want to know what IT is? The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8Zq_iWuFg&feature=related
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I rarely, if ever, agree with stuff from this site but I do read it. You have to try to look at both sides even if it is nauseating at times.
This particular one has a fairly good solution.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=paulsons_folly
Paulson's Folly
What should Congress demand in return for this deal?
Government equity in firms receiving assistance, in rough proportion to the amount of aid extended.
Limits on executive compensation paid by any firm receiving the public aid.
A recapture of the cost to the government, to be extracted from the firm's future profits.
A six-month sunset provision, so that the treasury secretary's bailout authority would expire by next April 1.
Any extension would be conditional on across-the-board re-regulation of financial institutions of all types.
Creation of a small independent board, which must review and approve Paulson's proposed deals.
A narrower treatment of court challenges to Paulson's actions.
A parallel program to refinance sub-prime mortgage loans and to provide funding to municipalities and community-based nonprofits to acquire, restore, and repopulate foreclosed properties.
At least $200 billion of new economic stimulus, in the form of aid to states, cities, and towns, for infrastructure rebuilding, more generous unemployment compensation and retraining benefits.
There has to be some accountability and oversight in this deal if they are going to strongarm my family and take my money to bail out idiots and thieves in order to maintain the economic system.
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Yep, the Federal Reserve is based on power, control and greed. The money they lend is just computerized digits that have no backing. It's money that won't exist until you pay for it.
Who here thinks the Fed is a privately owned corporation?
Who thinks it's part of our American Government like lets say the Treasury?
Who tells the treasury what to print? What is the money backed up by?
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"Government equity in firms receiving assistance, in rough proportion to the amount of aid extended"
word
You lend money to a bankrupt company - you own the company.
What's the betting it actually happens this way?
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You're silly if you think oil will go over $200 a barrel. Their would be another war very soon if it does.
Oil is priced in dollars. Dollars will become the next best thing to worthless once this goes through. Put it this way - the U.S. is a debtor nation... would you want to lend money to someone who just prints money to pay you back?
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Even though I disagree with a variety of Paul's positions, he was the only candidate who could have started to turn the ship around. The only candidate for real change, and about the only true outsider in Washington today. Crazy old Ron Paul.
Now, most American's no longer undersand the small govt. message. They find it frightening -- so called conservatives and liberals. He would have had some tough challenges even if he could have been elected. Actually, this crisis might very well have allowed him to push through change, but that ship has sailed.
So, we are stuck with two conventional Washington duds. Of the two, I obviously see Obama as the bigger dud. McCain, at the end of his Washington career, might actually work more for the country than himself. Can't say I have the same trust for Daley machine hack and top Fannie Freddie cash recipient Obama. I wonder how his expansive social programs are going to fly now? Does he have the guts to say no to his party? Didn't in Illinois, that's for sure.
I know it's that old sentimentality spiel, but anyone who would turn down an early trip home from Hanoi on principal might just rise again to the challenge. Still, not much to go on just yet -- no more from a solutions standpoint than Obama. But then, no one seems to know what to do except for Paulson, who may in fact be screwing us over even more with his Wall Street insider Constitution-be-dammed proposal. Limited time offer, call NOW!
So yeah, this sucks. But, maybe it's what we need to finally get some real change in office. Maybe an Obama presidency would be best, right about now. 4 years to deflate the Obama/Democratic myth might be worth the pain, just like it took a Bush to free many Republican minds emotionally tied to a party that ceased to exist some years ago. It's the uniparty folks, and us poor peons don't count and haven't for a while.
Given Obama's political backers (Kennedy, Pelosi, Soros, Durbin) and the party leadership in general, combined with anything approaching hard times, I seriously doubt you will see the much needed, and I'm sure demanded, fiscal restraint. He just won't be able to do it. Just say no, Barry! But, that's not why the party picked him over Hillery. Hell, they're already working to have me pay off the bad loan recipient morons who failed to understand how an ARM works in addition to the robber barons. How many extra billions to reward people who made a bad decisions and lived over their means while I was responsible and conservative in my personal life? Who the hell is going to knock a point or two off my 15 year, modest (40 percent down), low fixed rate loan on an affordable old construction house? Hey, you mean I could have been irresponsible and got a bigger house in the bargin -- damn! This socialism is great stuff I guess. Where's my frickin handout!
So yeah. Ron's popular now that he doesn't stand in the way of the chosen one (or any of the other chosen ones fielded by the uniparty). McCain might be a better short term leader, but an Obama presidency might be just what the Democrat coolaid drinkers need to see the other side of the great Washington truth. If enough of us take the red pill in 4 or 8 years, we may actually be able to get our country back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8Zq_iWuFg&feature=related
This country has gone through the Fascistic stylings of Wilson, FDR, and Johnson, and come out smiling. Bleeding heavily, but smiling.
You think 8 years of subservience at the hands of Obama will be any different?
The best we can hope for is that one of Obama's wrongings will be the catalyst for the next revolution. And that the American people will not be cowed into smiling while getting stabbed, metaphorically.
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Well, honestly... the average American is too stupid to know if they are getting fleeced or not. For a country with nearly no social mobility, we still have a lot of people with big dreams. At some point those folks will wake up, then you might see some things change. Granted, it won't be the sort of change you (or I, for that matter) will enjoy. I'll have a solidly comfortable lifestyle making ~100-120k a year, but I'll never make it into the real wealthy class. Most of the benefits of the economic growth for the past 30 years have gone to the top 1% of earners - and they really don't pay much in taxes. The 'comfortably wealthy' pay the lions share of taxes in this country, the really wealthy make their money in other ways, and can hide it fairly creatively.
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Well, honestly... the average American is too stupid to know if they are getting fleeced or not. For a country with nearly no social mobility, we still have a lot of people with big dreams. At some point those folks will wake up, then you might see some things change. Granted, it won't be the sort of change you (or I, for that matter) will enjoy. I'll have a solidly comfortable lifestyle making ~100-120k a year, but I'll never make it into the real wealthy class. Most of the benefits of the economic growth for the past 30 years have gone to the top 1% of earners - and they really don't pay much in taxes. The 'comfortably wealthy' pay the lions share of taxes in this country, the really wealthy make their money in other ways, and can hide it fairly creatively.
Well, unless you count the 35% of the TOTAL bill (http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/do-the-rich-and-businesses-pay-their-fair-share)
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This country has gone through the Fascistic stylings of Wilson, FDR, and Johnson, and come out smiling. Bleeding heavily, but smiling.
You think 8 years of subservience at the hands of Obama will be any different?
The best we can hope for is that one of Obama's wrongings will be the catalyst for the next revolution. And that the American people will not be cowed into smiling while getting stabbed, metaphorically.
I still think we're a ways away from the revolution. As long as you can get American Idol on basic cable, and can afford basic cable, there's just not the will.
The best that can be hoped for is an increasing but incremental shift away from the Washington BS.
A short term revolution that might be doable by 2012, as has been discussed on and off, is a drop the incumbent midterm election. That is something that I believe could be organized and that could have some shock and awe in Washington if it even its 10-20 percent of incumbents.
Charon
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Well, honestly... the average American is too stupid to know if they are getting fleeced or not. For a country with nearly no social mobility, we still have a lot of people with big dreams. At some point those folks will wake up, then you might see some things change. Granted, it won't be the sort of change you (or I, for that matter) will enjoy. I'll have a solidly comfortable lifestyle making ~100-120k a year, but I'll never make it into the real wealthy class. Most of the benefits of the economic growth for the past 30 years have gone to the top 1% of earners - and they really don't pay much in taxes. The 'comfortably wealthy' pay the lions share of taxes in this country, the really wealthy make their money in other ways, and can hide it fairly creatively.
whoa! Exactly. :aok
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I still think we're a ways away from the revolution. As long as you can get American Idol on basic cable, and can afford basic cable, there's just not the will.
:aok
Internet will decide which way we go, as soon as we realize we're all going the same way. The two party system will die a political French revolution.
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You're silly if you think oil will go over $200 a barrel. Their would be another war very soon if it does.
Why not? It's not like the rest of the world is paying it.... the price of oil is based in dollars. Other currencies are fairing quite well..... and don't care how high, (in dollars) oil goes per barrel. (because their currency is outpacing the inflation and devaluation of the dollar, meaning oil is getting cheaper for them) The fact that the per barrel cost of oil went to 150$ prior, tells me that there is no real "ceiling" in price.
As far as another war....you really look at that, one of the reasons we got into this crapstorm in the first place, as a viable, reasonable way out? We start another war, be prepared for all that debt we've sold off overseas to suddenly get called in...and for our way of funding this new war, to be crippled. We've been effectively neutered by our own ineptitude and stupidity. The only way out is off the crack.... we need to get off oil NOW, no matter what damage it presents in the short term.
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Why not? It's not like the rest of the world is paying it.... the price of oil is based in dollars. Other currencies are fairing quite well..... and don't care how high, (in dollars) oil goes per barrel. (because their currency is outpacing the inflation and devaluation of the dollar, meaning oil is getting cheaper for them) The fact that the per barrel cost of oil went to 150$ prior, tells me that there is no real "ceiling" in price.
As far as another war....you really look at that, one of the reasons we got into this crapstorm in the first place, as a viable, reasonable way out? We start another war, be prepared for all that debt we've sold off overseas to suddenly get called in...and for our way of funding this new war, to be crippled. We've been effectively neutered by our own ineptitude and stupidity. The only way out is off the crack.... we need to get off oil NOW, no matter what damage it presents in the short term.
Moray...I really think that what Bodhi was trying to say was, that if oil were to go that high, the symptom of the price would be another war. Which might be true, however...It might not be the same kind of war we had in Iraq. It might be much more bloodier, much more diffucult for the U.S., depending on how many players' are involved in that scenario.
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Moray...I really think that what Bodhi was trying to say was, that if oil were to go that high, the symptom of the price would be another war. Which might be true, however...It might not be the same kind of war we had in Iraq. It might be much more bloodier, much more diffucult for the U.S., depending on how many players' are involved in that scenario.
I disagree with what you think he meant. Clearly, his post said this...
Their would be another war very soon if it does.
Another war.....IF it does.
Implied cause for the stated effect. He clearly means that we would go to war somewhere else if oil reached over 200$ per barrel. Unfortunately, too many people here believe wars help battered economies. (ask the Japanese how that worked out for THEM) Until this changes, the same thought will pervade.
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I disagree with what you think he meant. Clearly, his post said this...
Another war.....IF it does.
Implied cause for the stated effect. He clearly means that we would go to war somewhere else if oil reached over 200$ per barrel. Unfortunately, too many people here believe wars help battered economies. (ask the Japanese how that worked out for THEM) Until this changes, the same thought will pervade.
We still haven't seen the total effects' of the bailout-meaning, the impact of that huge gov't. expenditure, on top of the ones' we are already commited to...namely, Iraq and Afghanistan. It might sour americans' on war for quite some time.
Take a look at the link I threw up in the thread titled "America's Outrageous War Economy" for an example.
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11.3 Trillion dollar deficit + 700 Billion (estimated to top a trillion) Bailout = Inflation.
Huge Inflation.
(http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/uploaded_images/wheelbarrow-mutilated-728910.jpg)
500 Bucks for a hotdog and a beer at the ballpark type inflation.
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"Government equity in firms receiving assistance, in rough proportion to the amount of aid extended"
word
You lend money to a bankrupt company - you own the company.
What's the betting it actually happens this way?
The Federal reserve is no more Federal than Federal Express but in 1913 Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act. This Act gave the Federal reserve bank (which is a small part of the largest business in the world), permission to manage our money for us.
It is a privately owned corporation with 12 owners. Those 12 owners are employees of part of an even larger more powerful entity. They're the same powers that help create currency unions all over the world. Their largest success has been in the Euro and over time, will create the Amero. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_currency_union
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Amero&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
For something even scarier to watch take a look at how and why money was created, how it can be manipulated and where it's going.
It's hard to say it won't happen when it already has.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&ei=ZHbYSIOoMKGI-gGbj-C4Ag&q=history+of+money
The funny more simple minded version
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5527438843357885025&ei=ZHbYSIOoMKGI-gGbj-C4Ag&q=history+of+money&vt=lf
in the future it gets worse......... but like the generations before you, for now we won't think about that. Lets just keep focused on the currant problems of making ends meet, sending our kids to school and trying to making sure our 401k's can bury us properly since it's out of our hands and there's nothing we can do about it anyway.
So you and your parents have been programmed to think
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Yup. Nothin we can do..
we're all bozo's on this bus.
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SR<--agrees so much, he's troll less.
Palin doesnt brush her teeth.....there I feel better.
:noid
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Well, unless you count the 35% of the TOTAL bill (http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/do-the-rich-and-businesses-pay-their-fair-share)
does it prevent them to have a better life than 99% of the American ?
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I disagree with what you think he meant. Clearly, his post said this...
Another war.....IF it does.
Implied cause for the stated effect. He clearly means that we would go to war somewhere else if oil reached over 200$ per barrel. Unfortunately, too many people here believe wars help battered economies. (ask the Japanese how that worked out for THEM) Until this changes, the same thought will pervade.
What I implied would be that $200 a barrel would trigger another war. I never said it would be started by the US.
Moray, you should look past the end of your nose and realize that the big ole mean and evil US does not need to start a war for their to be another war. Take a look at whats going on in South Ostetia. If you think that war is about liberating a bunch of poor souls from evil and oppressive Georgia, you are really fooling yourself. That little war is about nothing but a pipeline.
Why do you suppose Iran is persisting in Uranium enrichment? It's about power to them. With a nuke, their option increase 100 fold. They can then easily close the Straits of Hormuz and again hold the world to ransom whenever their islamofacist leaders want to.
What would $200/barrel oil mean in the US? What do you suppose diesel will cost then? $7 or $8 a gallon? How many companies will fold because they can no longer sell their products or services? Just what do you suppose will happen in the US when people can not afford to eat and a large majority of people are forced out on the streets because they can not pay for what they have? You really think that they might just pat ole Mr. Change on the back? Their will be outright open conflict here in our streets. People will kill each other if it means survival.
One last thing for you to think about. Take another look at all this from a financial aspect, and figure in another important factor. The amount of American debt that is owned by Foreign Banks, Investment Houses and Foreign Funds. If this economy were to collapse, how do you suppose they might feel about that? I can guarantee they aren't going to be all smiles. Their belief in America's ability to recover was what led most of them to buy up this debt to begin with. A collapse will render their investments worthless.
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I think the only real effect the 'average Joe' will notice is the price of oil going north of $200 a barrel, taking the price of gasoline up with it. Food will probably inflate as well, but I don't think many other things will, the companies will just cut costs by reducing jobs.
if oil goes up, so does gas, and deisel. if gas and deisel go up, everything else will. there is nothing sold to you that is not touched at some point by a truck. if they have to pay more for their fuel, they have to pass that cost on to the company they're shipping it for, and they in turn pass it onto us in the form of higher prices.
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What I implied would be that $200 a barrel would trigger another war. I never said it would be started by the US.
Moray, you should look past the end of your nose and realize that the big ole mean and evil US does not need to start a war for their to be another war. Take a look at whats going on in South Ostetia. If you think that war is about liberating a bunch of poor souls from evil and oppressive Georgia, you are really fooling yourself. That little war is about nothing but a pipeline.
Why do you suppose Iran is persisting in Uranium enrichment? It's about power to them. With a nuke, their option increase 100 fold. They can then easily close the Straits of Hormuz and again hold the world to ransom whenever their islamofacist leaders want to.
What would $200/barrel oil mean in the US? What do you suppose diesel will cost then? $7 or $8 a gallon? How many companies will fold because they can no longer sell their products or services? Just what do you suppose will happen in the US when people can not afford to eat and a large majority of people are forced out on the streets because they can not pay for what they have? You really think that they might just pat ole Mr. Change on the back? Their will be outright open conflict here in our streets. People will kill each other if it means survival.
One last thing for you to think about. Take another look at all this from a financial aspect, and figure in another important factor. The amount of American debt that is owned by Foreign Banks, Investment Houses and Foreign Funds. If this economy were to collapse, how do you suppose they might feel about that? I can guarantee they aren't going to be all smiles. Their belief in America's ability to recover was what led most of them to buy up this debt to begin with. A collapse will render their investments worthless.
Oil $200 a barrel? Well it hurts when the dollar is so craptastic. Encourage everyone you know to own the most fuel effecient vehicle possible, if your in a city buy a solid bike. I've been carpooling for a couple months and I've already saved almost $100.
Food to eat? Go local! Local food leaves your supply less up to the whims of the oil markets. Hell, go organic and you'll know your food isn't using oil based fertilizers.
And last but not least, the good old USA still has the best credit rating in the world. People aren't worried about us not paying our debts. I'd rather we as a country not owe another country 1 cent; I'll continue to vote for people who follow this thinking too.
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Oil $200 a barrel? Well it hurts when the dollar is so craptastic. Encourage everyone you know to own the most fuel effecient vehicle possible, if your in a city buy a solid bike. I've been carpooling for a couple months and I've already saved almost $100.
Food to eat? Go local! Local food leaves your supply less up to the whims of the oil markets. Hell, go organic and you'll know your food isn't using oil based fertilizers.
And last but not least, the good old USA still has the best credit rating in the world. People aren't worried about us not paying our debts. I'd rather we as a country not owe another country 1 cent; I'll continue to vote for people who follow this thinking too.
I already own the most fuel efficient vehicle I need without going out and spending more money to buy another more expensive POS that I can not maintain myself.
Go local? That's all fine and dandy when you consider small urban centers surrounded by plenty of space and the climate that favors a long growing season. What do you suppose large urban centers like Boston, NYC, Seattle, LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago, et al. are going to do when it comes to growing locally? It's not frigging possible. So we are back to spending large sums of money to buy fuel to move goods and animals generally grown many miles away from urban centers to feed these people.
If you think the US has a fantastic credit rating AND that people aren't worried about us not being able to pay back our debts, then please tell us why the foreign markets are still tanking over worries surrounding this buy out plan and it's possible implications on their market.
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11.3 Trillion dollar deficit + 700 Billion (estimated to top a trillion) Bailout = Inflation.
Huge Inflation.
(http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/uploaded_images/wheelbarrow-mutilated-728910.jpg)
500 Bucks for a hotdog and a beer at the ballpark type inflation.
We will never be rid of our deficit/debt until there is no more central bank in control of our money supply.
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oil at $200 a barrel, the railroads will have to buy more freight cars, they may even start hauling people again.
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I already own the most fuel efficient vehicle I need without going out and spending more money to buy another more expensive POS that I can not maintain myself.
Go local? That's all fine and dandy when you consider small urban centers surrounded by plenty of space and the climate that favors a long growing season. What do you suppose large urban centers like Boston, NYC, Seattle, LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago, et al. are going to do when it comes to growing locally? It's not frigging possible. So we are back to spending large sums of money to buy fuel to move goods and animals generally grown many miles away from urban centers to feed these people.
If you think the US has a fantastic credit rating AND that people aren't worried about us not being able to pay back our debts, then please tell us why the foreign markets are still tanking over worries surrounding this buy out plan and it's possible implications on their market.
Good for you on your vehicle, sorry if you can't maintain it yourself.
Every major city I have ever visited has had a local food co-op. I'm sure if we want to do some research we'll quickly find them operating in any of the cities you mention. Encouraging local crops is just one step to take and obviously some products will never be available locally. If you took my suggestion to mean that local foods is the end all be all solution to our dependence problem, I'm sorry that I've misled you. But dismissing it entirely is ludicrous.
And I'll eat my words. The USA does not have the worlds best sovereign credit rating at this time; we are now 10Th of 128 and possibly still falling in the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating)
Rail is a great option that unfortunately is often overlooked. While we as a nation have invested heavily in highways our rails have been neglected, at least nationally. Rail business is doing much better as the cost of fuel has risen though. Freight on the rails uses fuel much more efficiently than a truck.
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He said Ludacris... :lol
(http://z.about.com/d/rap/1/5/U/4/-/-/LudacrisReleaseTherapyart.jpg)
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We will never be rid of our deficit/debt until there is no more central bank in control of our money supply.
I have a hard time believing it's true because it sounds so outrageous but some economists have said we are still paying interest on money borrowed to fight ourselves in the civil war. History does show, the same guys who funded us for that are the same guys who own the Fed. As with any banker they want collateral but there was no way our forefathers would let a banker hold a Deed on the US. The bankers were smart and know how to take advantage of disparity.
In July 1862, during the Civil War, President Lincoln and Congress created the office of Commissioner of Internal Revenue and enacted an income tax to pay war expenses (see Revenue Act of 1862).
Later and after many attempts The Central Banks of Europe with the cooperation of our Government officials and banks finally were able to open a single central bank in America and opened 11 more. They placed a few corrupt American politicians into the main office to make it seem more like it was a government ran entity and called it the FEDERAL Reserve. They already knew there was no way America would put up America as collateral for money borrowed so they (the Fed) manipulated the Government and IRS to fit their needs as they had in the past. The IRS is and always will be The Federal Reserves collection agency......unless the people protest against it and that's not going to happen. The fed would crush us.
The fed decides our economic future not the people. Whether we succeed or fail is there decision alone. There is no greater power on Earth than money and Money Managers sit at the very pinnacle of society. It does not matter who you are... King, Queen or President, the pen can destroy faster than a sword.
I read this somewhere, The money of it's owner controls the world....or something like that.
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I link you a vid when I get home, tool, you'll like it. :aok
I hate the federal reserve, thieving sons of HOs.
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Going by these charts Gas should be in the $7.00 a gallon range.
In August 2005 a barrel of oil was about 60 dollars. The price of gas in Chicago was about $3.00.
In July of 2008 oil reached 147.00 a barrel but the price of gas was about $4.30 so the chart says but Taxes made it higher here.
147 / by 60 =2.45 $3.00 X 2.45 = $7.35
looks like I'm not getting screwed at all.... :rofl
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/chgaschart.gif)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/gasprice.png)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/zFacts-Gasoline-Price.png)
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Good for you on your vehicle, sorry if you can't maintain it yourself.
I can maintain my own vehicle, I refuse to buy something that I will not be able to maintain such as some electric POS that will not tow an aircraft or haul an R-2800 in the bed.
Every major city I have ever visited has had a local food co-op. I'm sure if we want to do some research we'll quickly find them operating in any of the cities you mention. Encouraging local crops is just one step to take and obviously some products will never be available locally. If you took my suggestion to mean that local foods is the end all be all solution to our dependence problem, I'm sorry that I've misled you. But dismissing it entirely is ludicrous.
And I'll eat my words. The USA does not have the worlds best sovereign credit rating at this time; we are now 10Th of 128 and possibly still falling in the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating)
Rail is a great option that unfortunately is often overlooked. While we as a nation have invested heavily in highways our rails have been neglected, at least nationally. Rail business is doing much better as the cost of fuel has risen though. Freight on the rails uses fuel much more efficiently than a truck.
The fact of the matter remains that most major metropolitan areas will not be able to be self sufficient when it comes to food, or most commonly used goods without serious relaxation of local EPA, Worker's Rights, and FDA regulations. Not to mention, that unless you are going to turn that urban center's workforce into manual labor, you still have to have the equipment necessary to farm. The amount of land needed to support Chicago alone is massive. The price of a barrel of oil going over $200 will simply be too much for most economies to handle. Rail, while a nice alternative to over the road hauling is not the alternative. You stilll have to have trucks to get items to and from the rail depot and from the depot to the final destination.
As I said before, a barrel of oil going over $200 will cause a war. My bet is it will be global.
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by the look of the chart even if oil goes to 200 the market will only charge what we can bear. In the mean time greed takes over.
Also As I understand, it's the future's traders that make the oil price go up not the demand.
The supply stay's fairly constant even in a event like IKE or premonitions of war. even in War it seems supply did not dwindle far from what it's output was. A break in a pipe or a storm on the way sets the future price of oil. Like taxes, once they see you can handle it, it never comes back down.
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I link you a vid when I get home, tool, you'll like it. :aok
I hate the federal reserve, thieving sons of HOs.
This video?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=hTXZSOLjMYfq-gHUsf2yAg&q=the+money+masters&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=hTXZSOLjMYfq-gHUsf2yAg&q=the+money+masters&hl=en)
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I already own the most fuel efficient vehicle I need without going out and spending more money to buy another more expensive POS that I can not maintain myself.
Sorry, didn't read this statement correctly the first time. I took you to mean that you had a high mpg vehicle that you could not maintain on your own.
I can maintain my own vehicle, I refuse to buy something that I will not be able to maintain such as some electric POS that will not tow an aircraft or haul an R-2800 in the bed.
Well, if you've already gotten in your mind that the product offered is a POS, whichever product you've looked at, I doubt we'll get very far into this convo. People with large weights to be hauled are obviously going to be saddled with larger, less fuel effecient vehicles.
The fact of the matter remains that most major metropolitan areas will not be able to be self sufficient when it comes to food, or most commonly used goods without serious relaxation of local EPA, Worker's Rights, and FDA regulations. Not to mention, that unless you are going to turn that urban center's workforce into manual labor, you still have to have the equipment necessary to farm. The amount of land needed to support Chicago alone is massive. The price of a barrel of oil going over $200 will simply be too much for most economies to handle.
Where there is a will, there is a way. If we as consumers create the demand for local food, it will be fufilled. Will our food supplies change much? Probably not. At least not with the crazy subsidies we hand out yearly. If we wish to keep discussing the merits of encouraging local foods, I suggest we move it to another thread.
Rail, while a nice alternative to over the road hauling is not the alternative. You stilll have to have trucks to get items to and from the rail depot and from the depot to the final destination.
Actually, its the best alternative we have available. Most of the infrastructure, as far as right-of-way and major industrial connections are there. Improving what we already have is mostly all thats needed. Well, and a system to seperate the freight from the passenger timetables to make rail travel appealing.
With more reliance on rail we'd be taking the large cross country trucks off the roads. They would be replaced with local drivers making the deliveries from the local depots and vice versa. Jobs still there, local now infact. Goods still delivered. And it would take less fuel, helping to ease our reliance on foreign evergy.
As I said before, a barrel of oil going over $200 will cause a war. My bet is it will be global.
Doubt it. Unless we're the ones starting it. Everyone else is making money off it being so expensive.
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This video?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=hTXZSOLjMYfq-gHUsf2yAg&q=the+money+masters&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=hTXZSOLjMYfq-gHUsf2yAg&q=the+money+masters&hl=en)
this series
prt 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ
prt 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A&feature=related
prt 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjUrib_Gh0Y&feature=related
prt 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVNN1wqw3k&feature=related
prt 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I796gwn95I&feature=related
a bit out there in their predictions, but they nailed the Federal reserve spot on.
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I seen those movies over a year ago and urge anyone reading this thread to do the same. I found only two minor inaccuracies in their time line in the old film but as you've said they nailed the Fed on spot.
Even though it breaks none of their rules YOUTUBE has removed the movie many times but keeps popping up. The internet is a powerful tool that can not be controlled in the way our main stream media has been since somewhere around WWI
The new license's that we were supposed to get in May 2008 have been put on hold by court order but there is no doubt, we will have them. Big money assures it.
There next round of legal attack will still concern safety while turning it into a Police issue. If you have a few traffic violations on your record or more serious issues, be prepared to receive one in the next couple years. You'll be forced to get them if you want to drive.
Testing of implanted chips has been underway for quite sometime using criminals. I just can't fathom the thought of people wanting them..the cards I can see but should be voluntary. My blood type and contact # is in my wallet ready.
Many phones today have tracking devices in them and that's enough I think. I don't need the cops pulling me over at random as I pass because I used to like to fight and got caught with some weed as a kid.
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Sorry, didn't read this statement correctly the first time. I took you to mean that you had a high mpg vehicle that you could not maintain on your own.
Well, if you've already gotten in your mind that the product offered is a POS, whichever product you've looked at, I doubt we'll get very far into this convo. People with large weights to be hauled are obviously going to be saddled with larger, less fuel effecient vehicles.
Where there is a will, there is a way. If we as consumers create the demand for local food, it will be fufilled. Will our food supplies change much? Probably not. At least not with the crazy subsidies we hand out yearly. If we wish to keep discussing the merits of encouraging local foods, I suggest we move it to another thread.
Actually, its the best alternative we have available. Most of the infrastructure, as far as right-of-way and major industrial connections are there. Improving what we already have is mostly all thats needed. Well, and a system to seperate the freight from the passenger timetables to make rail travel appealing.
With more reliance on rail we'd be taking the large cross country trucks off the roads. They would be replaced with local drivers making the deliveries from the local depots and vice versa. Jobs still there, local now infact. Goods still delivered. And it would take less fuel, helping to ease our reliance on foreign evergy.
Doubt it. Unless we're the ones starting it. Everyone else is making money off it being so expensive.
bongaroo,
Every hybrid, or Electric alternative I have looked at is nothing more than a POS band aid until the next new and truly usable technology is unveiled. They are all underpowered, and simply not fit to handle the work load we would put on them.
As for the local self sufficiency, regardless of their being a will there will be a way is BS. It would be physically impossible to feed all the people in the greater New York area based on just what they can grow in the surrounding area. You have to have tons of land that is capable of producing large quantities of food. Soylent Green might be an idea to try there though.... :devil
As for rail, all I know about the infrastructure is what I hear from friends that work for UP. They say that there is not enough rail space for the increased demand that high diesel would cause. It is again, just another band aid. I personally like rail, but it is definitely not the solution.
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I still think we're a ways away from the revolution. As long as you can get American Idol on basic cable, and can afford basic cable, there's just not the will.
The best that can be hoped for is an increasing but incremental shift away from the Washington BS.
A short term revolution that might be doable by 2012, as has been discussed on and off, is a drop the incumbent midterm election. That is something that I believe could be organized and that could have some shock and awe in Washington if it even its 10-20 percent of incumbents.
Charon
"New Management, same as the old."
Voting against the incumbent is just silly. You think it really means anything?
If we're lucky, Obama will stupidly encroach on the 2nd amendment. Then you'll see some fireworks.
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Grin,
I know a whole bunch about rail. Fact is AMTRAC had it's budget increased 15 times this year, a good thing, lots of equipment need replacing. How ever the bad news is that much of the system is operating at saturation levels. For example the Transcon from LA to CHI is currently running at 120 trains a day. That is one train every 12 minuets this means that there is no room in the system for more trains on that route. (Note the dual tracking of the whole route will be complete in about 2 or so years which will bump traffic up to around 150 trains a day) There are eight trans con routes not all of them are that busy but all are being run at 80% or more traffic. Coincidentally this is why Warren Buffet is investing heavily in rail roads, they are allready making money. but the fact is that the rail roads don't have a lot of space left to add service. Also please note that the majority of RR traffic is now Intermodal (shipping container) and bulk minerials. (coal) transporting other cargos will cost a lot more when they don't fit in the big steel box.
BTW most pepole eat from 1 to two pounds of food a day, in a city like Phoenix that is 2+ million consumers, that is 1 to 2 thousand tons of food a day. (approx 35, 60 ton rail cars a day) I grew up in Phoenix, and there is no way that much food can be produced in the local (1/2 days drive) area. Bigger cities will have bigger problems. And that is just food, what about paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc.
Have fum,
Kevin
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Grin,
I know a whole bunch about rail. Fact is AMTRAC had it's budget increased 15 times this year, a good thing, lots of equipment need replacing. How ever the bad news is that much of the system is operating at saturation levels. For example the Transcon from LA to CHI is currently running at 120 trains a day. That is one train every 12 minuets this means that there is no room in the system for more trains on that route. (Note the dual tracking of the whole route will be complete in about 2 or so years which will bump traffic up to around 150 trains a day) There are eight trans con routes not all of them are that busy but all are being run at 80% or more traffic. Coincidentally this is why Warren Buffet is investing heavily in rail roads, they are allready making money. but the fact is that the rail roads don't have a lot of space left to add service. Also please note that the majority of RR traffic is now Intermodal (shipping container) and bulk minerials. (coal) transporting other cargos will cost a lot more when they don't fit in the big steel box.
BTW most pepole eat from 1 to two pounds of food a day, in a city like Phoenix that is 2+ million consumers, that is 1 to 2 thousand tons of food a day. (approx 35, 60 ton rail cars a day) I grew up in Phoenix, and there is no way that much food can be produced in the local (1/2 days drive) area. Bigger cities will have bigger problems. And that is just food, what about paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc.
Have fum,
Kevin
Kevin, that's my point. Here is Colorado Springs where I am at, we see several trains a day either crawling up the hill towards the N with empty bulk cars (coal) and several headed south each day loaded to the gills with coal. That does not begin to count the amount of cars and tankers we see. When the coal train for our Coal Power plant arrives, it locks the through rail up for about a 1/3 a day as they break the train down to fit into the unloading yard. Then spend another 1/3 a day hooking it all back up and head N.
The rail system can not carry the OTR if it were to collapse due to fuel costs. The infrastructure is just not there.
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I can maintain my own vehicle, I refuse to buy something that I will not be able to maintain such as some electric POS that will not tow an aircraft or haul an R-2800 in the bed.
normally, your replies appear much much more intelligent than this.
you don't have a clue as to how powerful electric motors can be, do you? supplied with the proper voltage, and current, an electric motor will out-anything an internal combustion engine.
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Sorry, didn't read this statement correctly the first time. I took you to mean that you had a high mpg vehicle that you could not maintain on your own.
Well, if you've already gotten in your mind that the product offered is a POS, whichever product you've looked at, I doubt we'll get very far into this convo. People with large weights to be hauled are obviously going to be saddled with larger, less fuel effecient vehicles.
Where there is a will, there is a way. If we as consumers create the demand for local food, it will be fufilled. Will our food supplies change much? Probably not. At least not with the crazy subsidies we hand out yearly. If we wish to keep discussing the merits of encouraging local foods, I suggest we move it to another thread.
Actually, its the best alternative we have available. Most of the infrastructure, as far as right-of-way and major industrial connections are there. Improving what we already have is mostly all thats needed. Well, and a system to seperate the freight from the passenger timetables to make rail travel appealing.
With more reliance on rail we'd be taking the large cross country trucks off the roads. They would be replaced with local drivers making the deliveries from the local depots and vice versa. Jobs still there, local now infact. Goods still delivered. And it would take less fuel, helping to ease our reliance on foreign evergy.
Doubt it. Unless we're the ones starting it. Everyone else is making money off it being so expensive.
Bongaroo, I'd like to point out a couple of things, especially with the farming scheme. Firstly, many of the large cities' in the U.S. are not really in ideal locations' for farming, or have expanded so much that the arable land has been paved over. Take Los Angeles, for example. They used to grow Oranges where Disneyland is now, But as soon as you come from the direction I live in (North of L.A.) and drop into the San Fernando valley, the only thing's growing green are lawns. The city has spread up to, and actually up, the foothills. To find any open land that would be farmable, you would have to go over to the coast near Ventura or Oxnard, which are both still pretty heavily built-up) Or way south, into San-Bernadino...these places are over 100 miles' or more apart. You're still gonna have to use fuel to move anything from a local farm even close to city markets.
Then, there's water. LA county depends' on water from the Sierra Nevadas, HUNDREDS of miles to the north, Via the california aqueduct. Nevermind farming; It's everything Water districts can do just to give Angelino's water for their baths' and lawns. I'm not sure what the water situation is in other cities, but I do know that L.A. hurts in the summers.
As to rail...It does have one major drawback. That is time; It can take a BNSF freight train, such as the ones' my Brother-in-law runs, an entire day simply to go from someplace like Bakersfield to Barstow. I used to be able to make the same run in a FLD-120 Freightliner running right at 80,000 pounds in less than 5 hours; The same from Bakersfield to San Fransisco, If I didn't stop. It takes AMTRAK 12 hours from here to the Martinez station, and it run's at 80 m.p.h., and that's with no holdups, due to freight schedules, or anything else. Trucking has been, and more than likely, will continue to be, the way to go for freight-especially if it's something that's time sensitive, such as refrigerated loads' from places like the Imperial Valley, or whatnot.
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normally, your replies appear much much more intelligent than this.
you don't have a clue as to how powerful electric motors can be, do you? supplied with the proper voltage, and current, an electric motor will out-anything an internal combustion engine.
What size motor? All the 100 H.P. electric motors' I've seen, weigh almost 2,000 pounds by themselves-and require voltages' and currents that would need a pile of automotive batteries as big as a house to run. Not too applicable, for a motor vehicle. The source of electricity is the major hurdle that's holding Electric motors back, that's true. I'm sure that when the gov't. finally breaks' down, and authorizes Auto manufacturers to use miniuature fission power plants in cars, then we'll finally see some truly useful electric cars...(Or some truly spectacular engine failures... :lol)
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A 100 HP AC motor will be rather larger. However the DC motor required to drive an average sized compact car will be something in the range of 25HP or so.
This is because unlike an infernal combustion engine, a DC motor will produce maximum torque from zero RPM right up to stall. This means that you do not need to have upwards of 100HP to drive at 60MPH and above. If you had a means of keeping enough traction and some form of inertial dampening for your body, a DC motor could in fact get you to top speed almost instantly.
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I thought this thread was about where money and credit comes from??? :uhoh