Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: -towd_ on February 04, 2001, 11:46:00 PM
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just wonderin , seems like it is almost imposable to knock out ostis crew with anything but a hog , will this be on the fix list in next vers?
i mean the top is open hell 30 cal from 70 deg angle should knock out gun crew and it shure dosen't now.
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I walked 30mm/20mm shells from an A8 into an ost from about a 65degree dive angle.
He blew my kite to hell and me striaght back to the tower as I pulled out.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
I walked 30mm/20mm shells from an A8 into an ost from about a 65degree dive angle.
He blew my kite to hell and me straight back to the tower as I pulled out.
LOL Cave I did the same thing yesterday in a G-10. I can't believe that the Hispano was the only tank killing 20mm. On top of that a 30mm wont do the trick? I had the 30mm and the 20mm wing mounts. It makes me wonder exactly why the FW's were supposed to be such great ground pounders.
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Wounding the gunner of an ost should be almost a given with the only defense the ost driver would/should have is to dive back into the drivers compartment when under attack... if he stays with his gun he should die with any straffing attack which pings it more than a couple of times, if not die he should be serverly wounded, his blackouts would at least give the attacking plane a snowballs chance in hell. As it is now, it doesn't have one if the plane isn't a chog...
Eagler
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Jimdandy, the Luftwaffe 30mm shells (Mk108's) should be extremely poor at armor penetration. Take a look at its characteristics when you get a chance. Low muzzle velocity, contact fuzed, and thin walled/High HE content shells, equal extremely poor anti-armor performance.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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vermillion, the 30mm luftwaffe shells SHOULD be extremely poor at anti armor..
but they SHOULD be extremely effective against soft targets. Which a person exposed to the atmosphere is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fact, i have watched film of a 30mm equipped 190 attacking a b17. Instead of little "flashes" like we get in aces high, iit looked more like a hand grenade going off.
Noone said 30mm should be good at killings panzers. Just ostwinds from above (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fact, for kuilling m16s 30mm is definitely the best weapon, much better than hispano. But for ostwinds, the crew vulnerability does not seem to be completely modeled. (thought i do now have success disabling ostwinds with rockets)
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vermillion, the 30mm luftwaffe shells SHOULD be extremely poor at anti armor..
but they SHOULD be extremely effective against soft targets. Which a person exposed to the atmosphere is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fact, i have watched film of a 30mm equipped 190 attacking a b17. Instead of little "flashes" like we get in aces high, iit looked more like a hand grenade going off.
Noone said 30mm should be good at killings panzers. Just ostwinds from above (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fact, for kuilling m16s 30mm is definitely the best weapon, much better than hispano. But for ostwinds, the crew vulnerability does not seem to be completely modeled. (thought i do now have success disabling ostwinds with rockets)
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What's the armor thickness on the Ostwind turret? IIRC it could be defeated by HMG rounds easily.
I put a 250 round burst onto one with my Typhoon the other day. I doubt more than 30% of them missed. The Osti kept shooting. Can you imagine 250 20 mm rounds going off in a 30 foot radius?...
FYI Jimdandy the MG 151/20 and MG FF both have a lighter projectile and lower muzzle velocity than the Hispano Suiza cannon. H-S kinetic energy is 70% percent greater at the muzzle than the MG 151/20, and because of better ballistics this difference will grow rapidly downrange. MK 108 is a very low muzzle velocity weapon with very little penetration capability, but a big explosive charge as Zig mentions.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Thx Verm, funked i didn't know. With that said what did they do to make the FW a tank killer. It was supposed to be good at it wasn't it? Did it only use rockets and bombs?
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Well Jim, if we had an actual jabo version of the Fw190, it wouldn't be a bad tank killer. Bring on the 190F-8 please.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://raubvogel.tripod.com/signew.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 02-05-2001).]
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Always come screamin for me when ya need tank specs doncha? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The cockroach's turret was .4 inch boiler plate [not armor plate] and had a 3 foot wide open top. Any aircraft attacking from a remotely elevated position [E.G. not mowing the lawn] would turn the gun crew into chunky salsa. Even with .30 caliber guns. Imagine what an Il-2 would do here; twin VYa-23 cannons that punch through an inch of armor plate at 440 yards. That's your tank killer.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 02-05-2001).]
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wouldna a 30mm projectile hitting inside the cockroaches turret and detonating be akin to a hand grenade going off in there? Granted 3ft opening isn't that easy to hit at 400mph, but it's not impossible, especially when the shells are walked into the damn thing. I know I walked cannon shells into that turrets, as I saw the hit sprites from sterm to stem on my run (I approached from behind as he was shooting at someone else). Thinking I had surely knocked out his gun I did an easy pull up and got hammered for it. I fired ONLY cannon with my secondary fire button
::shrug::
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Actually the opening is more than 3 feet, frankly im surprised gunner wounding/killing wasnt implemented from the start. Ive had many panzer drivers wounded and that guy is entirely behind armour. It be nice to see this added.
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I put a 250 round burst onto one with my Typhoon the other day. I doubt more than 30% of them missed. The Osti kept shooting. Can you imagine 250 20 mm rounds going off in a 30 foot radius?...
I dont think they "go off" since they are AP rounds?
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Don't forget Jochen we've got combined ammo for every plane. Even if all we had were AP rounds for every gun, you could still chew up the ostie crew easy with any gun.
As for the opening? From the pics I've seen it looks to be between 3 and 4 feet wide. Maybe wider, I don't know. Either way there's a huge hole in the top that makes a rather easy target when firing from a dive. Too bad AH doesn't model ammo cook-off; one .50 cal round would brew up an Ostie in short order. Although I need to correct myself; the turret ring was surrounded by 24.3mm boiler plate. That's about an inch of steel.
30mm rounds are like firing hand grenades. Put even one through that hole and you're gonna need a sponge to clean the crew out; just like a Sherman that took a hit from a Panther. Just for the fun of it, let's see a rough dispersion guess.
Figure a dispersion of 20 yards at 550 yards for 4 50 cals. Each gun puts out around 800 rounds a minute, which equates to 52 rounds per second from all four guns. Now fire a 4 second burst; 208 two ounce bullets moving at 2,600 ft/sec hitting an area 20 yards in diameter. All in just 4 seconds. Now take a Mk-108, 500 rounds per minute with a blast radius of about 5 feet. So now you've got 8 rounds per second hitting in, on, and around that Ostie. Each with the explosive power of a grenade. Me thinks the crew would come home in a Zip-Lock bag in either scenario.
Question is, how come they're near invincible now? I've blown an entire D-hog worth of .50 cal on them without effect. I didn't stay low, I was up at 4k before diving in. Once the guy started firing at me I opened up on him. Not once did he ever cease fire on me, even after I fired the last of 2,400 rounds .50 cal bullets. This happened yesterday in H2H, and none of the lethality was messed with by the host. I checked.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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a freakin pellet gun should take out the gunner in an open cockit as the ost....
maybe AH has it this way so they can run up their score (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
ps and what's wrong with the spelchkar???
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001251.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001251.html)
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I think they might not have crew. The gun would be hard to destroy with mg or cannon fire, but the crew would be easy. I believe there is no crew in the panzer model. I dont recall ever being wounded in one.
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Theres wounds in panzer, though, usually by cannon shells and no effect whatsoever.. (and usually from behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I'd like to see only AP hispano shells, those APHE things are boring
One thing that I wonder, is how though halftracks can be against .50 caliber, when already 7.92mm machinegun would be enough to chew up on such halftrack...
I did once fly B-26, making passes over M3 and shooting what I had, and got only suspension out after few passes, then I were out of ammo and one engine shot up.
(could think that strafing from above would kill the crew shooting at the plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Rifle sized bullets does almost nothing for a halftrack in the game, no matter how close those are shot..
with 500 rounds of 7.92mm from close range I'd guess that M3/M16 would be quite chewed up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (if not anything else, at least crew would be shot up)
Those armor plates shouldn't be THAT thick in M2/M3 halftracks.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Theres wounds in panzer, though, usually by cannon shells and no effect whatsoever.. (and usually from behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I'd like to see only AP hispano shells, those APHE things are boring
One thing that I wonder, is how though halftracks can be against .50 caliber, when already 7.92mm machinegun would be enough to chew up on such halftrack...
I did once fly B-26, making passes over M3 and shooting what I had, and got only suspension out after few passes, then I were out of ammo and one engine shot up.
(could think that strafing from above would kill the crew shooting at the plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Rifle sized bullets does almost nothing for a halftrack in the game, no matter how close those are shot..
with 500 rounds of 7.92mm from close range I'd guess that M3/M16 would be quite chewed up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (if not anything else, at least crew would be shot up)
Those armor plates shouldn't be THAT thick in M2/M3 halftracks.
7.92mm rifle rounds...armored half track...that's often exposed to German small arms...that are generally 7.92mm...at very close proximity...think about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also the M-16 seemed to be rather short changed on effective range -- crew's were trained to open up inside of 3,000 yrds. As company support that's generally 3-4 M-16's firing at that range. Apparently it worked, because they were more effective at that range then the M-15a1.
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The turret armor in an Ostwind looks more suited to protecting against small caliber ground fire than fire from an aircraft. If aircraft were the main perceived threat to the crew then there isn't much sense to leave any opening larger than a hole to sight through. I understand the basic weight and mobility issues of armor, but a dead crew can't fight.
With regards to heavier weapons, like bombs, the overpressure from a 500 lb'er would incapacitate the crew in an open turret from anywhere within a hundred yards even if they didn't get hit by shrapnel.
Yet, the Ostwind's hardness does enhance gameplay when desperately trying to defend a field from capture and GV's are your only option.
MiG
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Keep in mind, with regard to the M-16 and Ostwind, that AH pilots in no way resemble how mobile AAA guns were dealt with in real life.
Aircraft fire wouldn't be very high on the Ostwind's threat list, unless there are some suicidal pilots buzzing around. But there aren't AAA platoon to worry about either.
- Bess