Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Chalenge on September 25, 2008, 03:26:32 AM
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The PBY Catalina fought from beginning to end. It had the longest history of service of any WWII aircraft because it still serves today as an aerial firefighter. It destroyed more submarines then all ships and other airplanes or vehicles combined. It saved the lives of downed airmen and sailors lost at sea and was the single most succesful search and rescue vehicle. It conducted covert operations on all fronts transporting VIPs commandos and spies alike. It escorted convoys across literally all seas.
Please! Find a way to include the PBY in AHII! Especially if it means more realistic water and submarines... depth charges... etc.
Dont forget the PBY! :salute
(Yes I know its been asked for before.)
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Amen!
Could not possibly agree more. Even if we can't land on water, bring it please.
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It would be awfully cool. Landing the thing in the water near a Naval base and letting troops out. Or ferrying supplies.
I'd love to see Iron Annie included as well. :aok
Even cooler, especially for Historical acts, would be skins for the para drunks representing every country that had airborne regiments.
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I'd definitely enjoy seeing it. Especially if it opens a new water environment of this game.
However I think this type of an aircraft will be held in reserve until the release of CT, where the game will undergo an update to support more features.
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It destroyed more submarines then all ships and other airplanes or vehicles combined.
I agree with the cat... but i really doubt this statement can possibly be true? I think the Royal Navy may beg to differ?!
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Two enthusiastic thumbs up! :aok :aok
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Yeap. The PBY and other flying boats could open up an whole new realm in this game. Legit recon (give it tank sight zoom). Deliver field supps from a port. Repair CV's. Etc. It would be a nice supplimentary plane.
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PBY and the He-115 :aok :aok
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The PBY would be a great plane to have :aok +1
<S>
Yossarian
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:aok
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It would be great for MARPAT in events, though the player with the fortitude to fly one would be few and far between.
-Sik
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I agree with the cat... but i really doubt this statement can possibly be true? I think the Royal Navy may beg to differ?!
Lets just ask Widewing to research it and you will be surprised what the answer is. :aok
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Would be a cool plane to have.
Would really like to see rivers in the game also, could run PT boat raids up-river and re-supply them with PBYs.
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Would be a cool plane to have.
Would really like to see rivers in the game also, could run PT boat raids up-river and re-supply them with PBYs.
Now that would be uber-cool!!!
<S>
Yossarian
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Lets just ask Widewing to research it and you will be surprised what the answer is. :aok
http://www.uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm
Ships 264 Includes a few losses to merchant ships
Aircraft 250 Includes all ship-based aircraft
Aircraft & Ships * 37
Missing 52 See U-boats missing in Action
Air raids on ports 43 Check out this page.
Mines 35
Captured 3 U-110, U-505 and U-570
Scuttled 242 Read about Operation Regenbogen
Surrendered 155 Most scuttled in Operation Deadlight
Paid Off 37 Usually battered or "tired" boats
Accidents 25 Losses to accidents or "friendly fire"
Other (+) 7
Total 1154 (1149 individual boats)
http://www.uboat.net/allies/aircraft/catalina.htm
The first RAF Catalinas entered service in the spring of 1941. This was just in time to play a role in the hunt for the Bismarck, that was observed on 26 May by a crew that included an American -- a fact that was kept secret at the time, because of the official neutrality of the USA.
In the Pacific the Catalina was the backbone of long-distance reconnaissance units, at the time of Pearl Harbour and thereafter. Mostly their task was to observe, not to attack, but there were units, such as VP-12 Black Cats that specialized in anti-ship strikes.
The situation in the Atlantic was different, U-boats being the largest threat there. The Catalinas were very suitable for the long U-boat patrols, often flown over the Arctic seas to protect convoys to Murmansk. A weakness of the type was its low speed, which gave an U-boat time to dive before it could be attacked. This changed when U-boats were ordered to stay on the surface and fight it out, but that made the Catalina's task more dangerous. John A. Cruickshank received the Victoria Cross for an action in 1944, in which U-361 was sunk --- and Catalina DA-Y limped home with 72 holes in it and a badly wounded pilot. David Hornell also earned a VC in a Catalina, his was awarded posthumously.
A special tool for anti-submarine warfare was a Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) system in a tail boom. This reported the presence of a submerged submarine, assuming that it was not too deep and the aircraft flew low. These aircraft were fitted with special retarding bomb racks, to make the bombs fall vertical, instead of travelling horizontal with the speed of the aircraft. In January 1944 MAD-equipped Catalinas began to patrol the Straits of Gibraltar.
U-boats sunk by this aircraft
1941
U-452 +,
1942
U-74 +, U-464, U-94 +, U-582, U-408,
1943
U-164, U-507, U-620, U-156, U-209, U-640, U-467,
U-388, U-194, U-590, U-135 +, U-662, U-199 +, U-197,
1944
U-601, UIT-22, U-392 +, U-342, U-731 +, U-241, U-476,
U-477, U-980, U-715, U-423, U-1225, U-478 +, U-361, U-742,
1945
U-1107, U-320,
37 U-boats lost to Catalina aircraft. + means that the Catalina shared the credit for the sinking.
Unless you are talking specifically about US ships and aircraft?
Unless they sunk thousands of Japanese subs? (My knowledge of the Pacific war is limited)
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However I think this type of an aircraft will be held in reserve until the release of CT, where the game will undergo an update to support more features.
I think CT is/was a dud :confused:
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Unless you are talking specifically about US ships and aircraft?
Unless they sunk thousands of Japanese subs? (My knowledge of the Pacific war is limited)
No I was actually going by the 'PBY Catalina in Action' book which stated it just as I put it. Researching it just now online I found: "Catalinas destroyed 40 U-boats in total but suffered losses of their own" and this pertaining to German boats of course. I have not found a figure for Japanese subs and I dont know how many Japanese subs there were but 'thousands' would seem unlikely. It doesnt seem right that Germany would have that many either but Im no expert.
Anti-submarine warfare
Catalinas were the most extensively used anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft in both the Atlantic and Pacific Theaters of the Second World War. One of their jobs was escorting convoys to Murmansk. By 1943 U-boats were well armed with anti-aircraft guns and two Victoria Crosses were won by Catalina skippers pressing home attacks on U-boats in the face of heavy fire: John Cruickshank in 1944 against U-347 and in the same year Flight Lt. David Hornell RCAF (posthumously) against U-1225. Catalinas destroyed 40 U-boats in total but suffered losses of their own. On December 7, 1941, Japanese Mitsubishi Reisen "Zero" fighters from the Akagi carrier group attacked NAS Kaneohe Bay at Oahu, Hawaii, destroying or disabling all of the 33 Catalinas stationed there.
Maritime patrol
A flight of PBY-5s over the Aleutian Islands.In their role as patrol aircraft, Catalinas participated in some of the most notable engagements of World War II. The aircraft's parasol wing and large waist blisters allowed for a great deal of visibility; this combined with its long range and endurance made it well suited for the task.
It was an RAF Coastal Command Catalina with a USN Pilot among the British crew that located the German battleship Bismarck on May 26, 1941 while it tried to evade the Royal Navy forces that would sink it within a couple of days.[8]
It was a flight of Catalinas that spotted the Japanese fleet approaching Midway Island, beginning the Battle of Midway.[9]
A RCAF Catalina flow by Squadron Leader L.J. Birchall foiled Japanese plans to destroy the Royal Navy's Indian Ocean fleet on April 4, 1942 when it detected the Japanese carrier fleet approaching Ceylon (Sri Lanka).[10]
Night attack and naval interdiction
Several squadrons of PBY-5As and -6As in the Pacific theater were specially modified to operate as night convoy raiders. Outfitted with state-of-the-art magnetic anomaly detection gear and painted flat black, these "Black Cats" attacked Japanese supply convoys at night. Catalinas were very successful in this highly unorthodox role. Between August 1943 and January 1944, Black Cat squadrons had sunk 112,700 tons of merchant shipping, damaged 47,000 tons and damaged 10 Japanese warships. The Royal Australian Air Force also operated Catalinas as night raiders, with RAAF aircraft mounting mine-laying operations deep into Japanese-held waters. The RAAF also occasionally used Catalinas to mount nuisance night bombing raids on Japanese bases, including the major base at Rabaul.
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From that I dont get thousands of anything so I am beginning to agree with you.
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PBYs were not specifically utilized for ASW operations. Were they - certainly, but the PBYs calling was extreme range and endurance.
Most ASW operations by aircraft were carried out by B-24s and Lockheed Hudsons/PV-1/PV-2 aircraft. Later in the war, as CVEs started sailing with shipping convoys, Wildcats and Avengers (Martlets and Tarpons) handling most of the ASW air operations outside of the Western and Eastern approaches.
I've been an advocate of rescuing downed pilots with aircraft or GVs, in order to land kills (we still get points for them, so why not). A PBY provides an opportunity to retrieve a pilot 'floating' in a life raft in the middle of the ocean...and allows him to land his kills AND offers an additional perk opportunity to the PBY pilot.
J
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The Catalina was a long range scout. It had a few depth charges hung under the wings on some missions, but it was slow, laboring, and flew in some of the most boring marathon endurance missions of the war.
And... you want this in an action-orniented game why?
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Because I also want better water submarines and other 'targets' to destroy. :D
I dont see any reason that PBYs could not be 'fun' in an 'action-oriented' game. We have people willing to fly B17s to 32k and fly deep into enemy territory just to die in a few seconds.
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catalina :aok
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It's not a bad idea if HTC is willing to add the rescue element to the game. I'm not so sure about repairing CVs, I think if we want a CV repaired it needs to be withdrawn from the combat area and sailed to a friendly port - but that's another thread.
PBYs are vulnerable - two .50s on each side and a twin .30 in the nose, they don't maneuver, don't have speed or alt advantages, so the impetus would be on providing air cover for them much in the same way they capped Dumbos operating in WW2.
Without digressing, the rescue element is certainly intriguing, as it could introduce another aspect to the game, a Piper Cub or Fi-156 (I hear we're not allowed to say 'Storch' in here! :uhoh) picking up a downed pilot can offer players the chance to land kills that they'd otherwise lose (some people live for that scrolling message and the various WTGs that follow).
IMHO, the PBY is certainly an interesting element, along with perhaps an Emily or Mavis and a JU-52/3m (Iron Annie with floats) or a Bv-138 or Do-24.
J
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It's not a bad idea if HTC is willing to add the rescue element to the game. I'm not so sure about repairing CVs, I think if we want a CV repaired it needs to be withdrawn from the combat area and sailed to a friendly port - but that's another thread.
PBYs are vulnerable - two .50s on each side and a twin .30 in the nose, they don't maneuver, don't have speed or alt advantages, so the impetus would be on providing air cover for them much in the same way they capped Dumbos operating in WW2.
Without digressing, the rescue element is certainly intriguing, as it could introduce another aspect to the game, a Piper Cub or Fi-156 (I hear we're not allowed to say 'Storch' in here! :uhoh) picking up a downed pilot can offer players the chance to land kills that they'd otherwise lose (some people live for that scrolling message and the various WTGs that follow).
IMHO, the PBY is certainly an interesting element, along with perhaps an Emily or Mavis and a JU-52/3m (Iron Annie with floats) or a Bv-138 or Do-24.
J
Don't forget about the He-115 (http://www.royal-naval-reserve.co.uk/images/namsen-fjord/he115-6.jpg)
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Most responders have forgotten this plane also laid anti-shipping mines and carried covert operatives. So it could also be used like a jeep to carry maybe four troops. It could lay mines around the harbor of a port to make sure the CV cant leave if it respawns. Im sure HT could think of a lot of uses actually.
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I think mines are pretty much a non-factor in this game, as there's no way to control their dispersal, nor is there any way to counter them, at least not without a built-in minesweeping unit built into the game.
As for dropping troops for covert ops, what purpose would it serve at this point, since no single person can effectively take or hold a base by themselves. A goon can carry 10 troops, an LVT can deliver troops from naval units. A PBY makes as much noise as any other twin-engined aircraft, and most covert ops were conducted at night, when the risk to the aircrew was minimalized.
PBY, or any other amphib, will be great if HTC implements a rescue/pilot recovery element to the game. Otherwise, we already have aircraft that fulfill the roles we already have.
J
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I think mines are pretty much a non-factor in this game, as there's no way to control their dispersal, nor is there any way to counter them, at least not without a built-in minesweeping unit built into the game.
As for dropping troops for covert ops, what purpose would it serve at this point, since no single person can effectively take or hold a base by themselves. A goon can carry 10 troops, an LVT can deliver troops from naval units. A PBY makes as much noise as any other twin-engined aircraft, and most covert ops were conducted at night, when the risk to the aircrew was minimalized.
PBY, or any other amphib, will be great if HTC implements a rescue/pilot recovery element to the game. Otherwise, we already have aircraft that fulfill the roles we already have.
J
Wellingtons and Lancasters (I think) and PBYs both did minesweeping (degaussing) and so did Ju88s and I think He111s. Jeeps can carry 4 troops so why not PBYs?
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Yes, aircraft were used for minesweeping purposes, so you're asking for magnetic mines, not the standard contact mines (that were used far more extensively). Contact mines require manual sweeping, and that means deploying paravanes (which would have to be developed and coded) and a specialty class of ship to do it. Yes, all warships carried mine-sweeping paravanes during WW2, but they were hardly, if ever, used on capital in times of combat. Once the mines are swept, they were destroyed by gunfire, either using rifles or light AA guns.
We can barely get players that are capable of turning a CV when bombs start falling, do you honestly think that players are going to take the time to mine sweep an area before leaving a home port or sailing into a bay to shell a base/town?
You also have the time factor...Let's say you log in at 7am and lay 50 mines off shore from my port. You leave, and no one else knows that those mines are sitting there. Do we place the responsibility on our fellow players to check and sweep for mines before we kill our own CV, who gets credit if you are lucky enough to sink a ship? It could take hours, even days, for a ship to run into a mine. If you're not logged in, will you get credit for it?
Mining played a key role in the destruction of shipping during the war, I won't deny that. But in the game, I don't see a managable way of implementing it. Same holds true for anti-tank mines. The way the battles occur in AH, people jump from one base to another as both offensive and defensive players. There's no orderly defense of bases, no resources that you can implement to assist with the defense of the base aside from throwing out vehicle supplies and camping spawn points prior to a perceived attack.
Mines don't discriminate - they'll kill a friendly tank as quickly as an enemy. So you lay mines, and 45 minutes later, a fellow player drives his task group through your minefield. Making minefields visible to each country on the clipboard maps gives it away completely as long as players have ghost accounts or country-hop within a game.
As for Catalinas carrying troops...aside from landing on the water offshore and waiting outside the dar for the base take (which we can accomplish with a goon and 10 troops simply by loitering), what purpose would a PBY serve in the transport role that we can't already accomplish with existing aircraft?
I don't mean to be a jerk, but I'm sure these are the types of questions the AH programmers and developers ask themselves every time they consider a new feature to the game, so it only makes sense for us to consider these same questions before we ask for things.
J
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And... you want this in an action-orniented game why?
Because Maritime Patrol is fun?
from some aviation bbs somewhere, comes the following exchange of letters between a young aspiring aviator, and a wise old veteran. I'm sure this has been on the AH board before, and I'm sure it will be placed here again in the future.
Sir,
My name is DJ Baker and I would appreciate it if you could tell me
what It takes to be an F18 fighter pilot for the Navy. What classes
should I take in high school to help the career I want to pursue later in
my life? What could I do to get in the Naval Academy?
Sincerely,
DJ Baker
A worldly and jaded P-3 Pilot, LCDR Jay Beasley, rose to the task by
responding to DJ's letter...
Dear DJ,
Obviously, through no fault of your own, your young, impressionable
brain has been poisoned by the superfluous, hyped-up, "Top Gun" media
portrayal of fighter pilots. Unfortunately, this portrayal could not be
further from the truth. In my experience, I've found most fighter pilots
pompous, back-stabbing, momma's boys with inferiority complexes, as well
as being extremely overrated aeronautically.
However, rather than dash your budding dreams of becoming a USN pilot, I
offer the following alternative: What you REALLY want to aspire to is
the exciting, challenging, and rewarding world of Maritime Patrol. And
this, young DJ, means one thing....the venerable workhorse, THE P-3
Orion! I can guarantee no fighter pilot can brag that he has flown a
mining run at 300 ft above the water, at 300 knots, while trying to
calculate a means of justifying an emergency divert to Pattaya Beach,
Thailand, avoiding shipping, and yelling at the TACCO, all while eating
a box lunch, with the engineer in the back taking a piss and the
navigator puking in his trash can!
I tell you, DJ, Maritime Patrol is where it's at! Where else is it legal
to throw hazardous material out of the aircraft, and not even give a
crap what Greenpeace and the other tree huggers think! No where else can
you crawl in the back of the aircraft and take a nap because you are so
hung over that focusing your eyes takes to much effort! And talk about
exotic travel? When P-3's go somewhere, they GO somewhere (usually for 6
months, unfortunately). This gives you the opportunity to immerse
yourself in the local culture enough to give any natives a bad taste in
their mouths for the USN and Americans in general, not something those
jet jocks can do from their staterooms on a ship!
As far as recommendations for your course of study, I offer these: Take
a lot of math courses. You will need all the advanced math skills you
can muster to enable you to calculate per diem rates around the world,
and when trying to split up the crew's bar tab so that the copilot
really believes he owes 85% of the whole thing and the NAV believing he
owes the other 20%.
Health sciences are important, too. You will need a thorough knowledge
of biology to make those educated guesses of how much longer you can
drink beer before the tremendous case of the ****s catches up to you
from that meal you ate at that place that had the belly dancers in some
Godforsaken foreign country whose name you can't even pronounce!
Social studies are also beneficial. It is important for a good Patrol
Plane Commander (PPC) to have the cultural knowledge to be able to
ascertain the exact location of the nearest titty bar in any country in
the world. Then be able to persuade the local authorities to release the
RADAR operator, after he offends every sensibility of the local religion
and culture.
A foreign language is helpful, but not required. You will never be able
to pronounce the names of the NAVAIDs in Italy, and it's much easier to
ignore them and go where you want to anyway. As a rule of thumb: Waiters
and bellhops in France are always called "Pierre", in Spain it's "Hey,
Pedro", in Puerto Rico it's "Juan", and in Italy, of course, it's
"Mario." These terms of address also serve in other countries
interchangeably.
A study of geography is also paramount. You will need to know the basic
location of all the places you've been when you get back from your
deployment and are ready to stick those little pins in that huge world
map you've taped to your living room wall, right next to that gigantic
wooden giraffe statue and beer stein collection.
Well, DJ, I hope this little note inspires you. And by the way, forget
about that Naval Academy thing. All P-3 guy's know that there are waaay
too few women and too little alcohol there to provide a well-balanced
education. A nice, big state college would be a much better choice.
-Sik
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Yes, aircraft were used for minesweeping purposes, so you're asking for magnetic mines, not the standard contact mines (that were used far more extensively). Contact mines require manual sweeping, and that means deploying paravanes (which would have to be developed and coded) and a specialty class of ship to do it. Yes, all warships carried mine-sweeping paravanes during WW2, but they were hardly, if ever, used on capital in times of combat. Once the mines are swept, they were destroyed by gunfire, either using rifles or light AA guns.
We can barely get players that are capable of turning a CV when bombs start falling, do you honestly think that players are going to take the time to mine sweep an area before leaving a home port or sailing into a bay to shell a base/town?
You also have the time factor...Let's say you log in at 7am and lay 50 mines off shore from my port. You leave, and no one else knows that those mines are sitting there. Do we place the responsibility on our fellow players to check and sweep for mines before we kill our own CV, who gets credit if you are lucky enough to sink a ship? It could take hours, even days, for a ship to run into a mine. If you're not logged in, will you get credit for it?
Mining played a key role in the destruction of shipping during the war, I won't deny that. But in the game, I don't see a managable way of implementing it. Same holds true for anti-tank mines. The way the battles occur in AH, people jump from one base to another as both offensive and defensive players. There's no orderly defense of bases, no resources that you can implement to assist with the defense of the base aside from throwing out vehicle supplies and camping spawn points prior to a perceived attack.
Mines don't discriminate - they'll kill a friendly tank as quickly as an enemy. So you lay mines, and 45 minutes later, a fellow player drives his task group through your minefield. Making minefields visible to each country on the clipboard maps gives it away completely as long as players have ghost accounts or country-hop within a game.
As for Catalinas carrying troops...aside from landing on the water offshore and waiting outside the dar for the base take (which we can accomplish with a goon and 10 troops simply by loitering), what purpose would a PBY serve in the transport role that we can't already accomplish with existing aircraft?
I don't mean to be a jerk, but I'm sure these are the types of questions the AH programmers and developers ask themselves every time they consider a new feature to the game, so it only makes sense for us to consider these same questions before we ask for things.
J
:huh :huh :huh :huh
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Yes, aircraft were used for minesweeping purposes, ...
If it causes the enemy great anguish and consternation I am all for it and it should be part of the game. I also dont care who gets credit or whether the enemy sees or doesnt see the mines because if I fly ten sectors to hit the enemies city and no one ever tries to intercept me or even knows the city has been hit it still has the intended effect. :aok