Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on January 23, 2001, 04:44:00 PM
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The other night I had an opportunity to run a variety of attack profiles under varying conditions and those; compiled with dozens of others run over the course of the past few weeks have lead me to an inescapable conclusion… The bish truly are ravening dogs that attack with ferocity and tenacity.. but without much disposition towards little details like goon support or attack element survival.
Typical Bish Assault: Everybody follows everybody else “over dis way..” ..some have ords; most don’t; none have much of a plan in mind other than ‘gonna kill them knits’ or ‘wait till them ugly assed rooks see THIS’. When critical mass over the target area is reached (approx ¼ to 1/3 of total bish population) and after about half of those have been shot down (and come back twice) the announcement goes out “send goon”. Of course; by this time 6 goon drivers have already met their makers and are understandably less than enthusiastic about another useless attempt in that madhouse…
Enter FAST ATTACK. An organized plan of assault whereby the Mission Planner is employed, pilots are briefed as to targets; routes; the order of battle, ordnance to be employed and individual areas of responsibility.
Now normally; FAST ATTACK relies on overlapping areas of responsibility and mutual support across the various elements of the attack force. It’s usually comprised of Med buffs; C47’s and their JABO fighter escorts and whenever possible, a ‘light’ fighter sweep is dispatched in advance to clear the airspace over the target area.
Basically, the plan calls for the JABO/Escorts to move into the contested airspace over the target and force down or destroy any aircraft at altitudes that represent a threat to the buffs, which arrive shortly after the JABO Escorts do. The JABO Escorts are NOT expected to attack ANYTHING ground based till the buffs have closed the hangers and popped the acks down. (This takes less than 3 minutes for 4 B26’s) Once the Buffs have knocked down the acks and hopefully the hangers; THEN the Escort/JABO’s are brought in to deal with any armor on the field or run cleanup on hangers missed due to losses in the buff force. It goes without saying that the buffs first target on that field is the VH. A JABO destroyed by ack while he downs a hanger a buff will nail anyway within 2 minutes is a wasted death. That pilot accomplised nothing that the buff assets dispatched to that field would not obtain.. and in dying the JABO pilot has added to the risk of failure of the attack via weakening of the combat cap OVER the field.
The idea here is to have the JABO Escorts keep as much of the attack force (and it’s c47’s) alive as possible, for as long as possible. It must be mentioned that killing any enemy fighters or GV’s prior to destruction of the hangers is a guarantee that that freshly dead defending pilot does 2 things.. ONE.. Holler fer help on his country channel (BISH HITTING A24!! HELP!!) and TWO: immediately Re-Up from the field… from which vantage point he will no doubt immediately spot the low dots on the horizon… the GOONS. Of course.. we have all seen how that attack goes… the first wave of goons die, and even though the field is eventually closed; by the time the goons get back; the enemy has brought in help from neighboring fields, has caught the attackers low strafing the fuel tanks, ammo bins and various other field infrastructure that we should really keep intact for our own use after its (hopefully) eventual capture. Even worse, since the attackers are now low; they are unable to cap or screen for the low goons that are just then making their low runs in to drop troops. Results are usually the same.. one or two arriving defenders from another field drop down on the goons; kill them and then pick off the attackers that remain while more reinforcements arrive to help mop up the shattered remnants of the original attack force. The fields a ‘bust’, no soap, no capture.
Ok; now, so that you might get a little better understanding of where the biggest problems lie; consider first the job of the escort JABO fighters associated with the main attack force. Their job in NO WAY entails any attack upon the field assets until the Buffs have finished the hangers and the acks. Let the buffs deal with the main field assets and defenses. ONLY AFTER the hangers and acks are down should the JABO’s go to work.. up to that point they should be at intermediate altitude providing coverage and defense of the airspace needed by the buffs or dealing with any threat to the goon force.. Again.. attack NOTHING unless it’s a threat; an IMMEDIATE threat to the buffs or goons. Remember WHAT that pilot will do if you shoot him down too soon… he’ll re-up AFTER he hollers fer help; advertise the goons location and come right back on the deck to kill it. Better you keep him interested.. but don’t attack him till you have to. Once the acks and hangers are down; the JABO’s go in and clean up any low defending air assetts THEN the defending armor forces, THEN RE-GRAB AND SET COMBAT AIR PATROL OVER THAT BASE!! Screen toward the closest enemy field.. where the defenders are likely scrambling to bust up the attack.. intercept them well BEFORE they get to the contested field.. DO NOT MINDLESSLEY CIRCLE OVER THE FIELD AT 1000 FEET AFTER YER ORDNANCE IS GONE.. if you have only .50 cal ammo left you ain’t gonna kill any armor.. SWEEP TOWARDS THE NEXT CLOESET ENEMY FIELD!
The Goons.. all too often; our brave and intrepid goon driver suffers an attack of impatientius, and dashes into the attacked field while it still has live on site defenders thus attracting the immediate and deadly attention of every enemy fighter in three girds around. Hold yer horses.. and the drunks, up short of dot range on the field. I can’t stress this strongly enuff… if you can see their dots THEY CAN SEE YOURS! Stay outta dot range, wait till you receive the call to come in. Remember, one maxim known instinctively by every pilot with guns in this sim. LOW DOT = GOON = EASY KILL = FIELD SECUITY. Stay smart.. stay alive.. don’t be where they are gonna look for you.
Now that you know what goes wrong.. here's how we do it RIGHT. Two B26's or JU88's are detailed and armed for acks, two more are detailed and armed for hangers. The JABO force consistis of heavy fighters armed with 1k eggs and rockets. The goon force is 2 or more C47's; and they are dispatched on a diffrent course with a final IP that is NOT on the target field. The JABO's transit ahead of the buffs; and once over the target field they DO NOT attack it; but instead, CAP it. The buffs arrive within 2 minutes of the JABO's and proceed to take down the acks and hangers.. this takes two passes, at most three.. 3 to 4 1/2 minutes tops. Once acks and hangers are down; JABO's are free to engage low assetts and enemy armor. B26's re-route to the GOONS IP, descened and proceed with goons back toward the target. By this time; the JABO's will have dispatched any remaining armor on the field, sounded the all clear for the goons to approach and be RE-GRABBING to establish hi-cap over the field; with some elements from the JABO force sweeping towards the next closest enemy field for intercept of interlopers.
Simple, enh?? It should be.. and when we do it like this it goes fast and easy.. the field is overwhelmed before it can muster adequite defensive assets, the goons approach unopposed, the capture goes down without a hiccup.
Sadly; merely because most guys flying the JABO section don't understand the concept of "HOLD, CAP; COVER THE BUFFS AND GOONS" they instead see a low no-threat defender attempting to grab up towards the out-of-reach buffs, they ALL go in and attack it, or worse; die gloriously but uselessly attacking hangers or acks that would be destroyed in a few minutes anyway without risk.
The FAST ATTACK mission profile is intended to gain the strategic target being attacked WITH MINIMUM RISK AND LOSSES to the attacking force while delivering OVERWHELMING DAMAGE TO THE TARGET. If any elemet fails to do it's job; the enitire force is weakened unneccesairly and all elements are put at extreme risk.
In essence.. do it smart; get kills, get the objective; do not die. Screw up; all are at risk; most die; no objective obtained.. and mayhem ensues..
Comments??
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"
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One more letter like that and I'll join to Bishes (again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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Hangtime gave the receipe of success to rooks and knits for his personal glory of "look I'm Patton".
Hang him high and short! Or better, execute him with rusted bullets to give him the tetanos!
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I thought you did an excellent job of sizing up the situation Hangtime. I like the overall essence of the plan. One small suggestion- I have noticed in past games that C47 drivers frequently fly a straight line from their base to the enemy base being attacked and some folks anticipate this and hunt the goonys way before they arrive. Having experienced this from both perspectives I think that the offense should send a few turn fighters with the goonys or have the goonys drivers take a route other than straight between bases. Hey! Good job. I'd like to see more posts like yours.
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Great post hangtime. Isn't it great when the whole thing comes together efficiently?
This is exactly the plan I like to see if we have enough pilots in the mission...
Now that you know what goes wrong.. here's how we do it RIGHT. Two B26's or JU88's are detailed and armed for acks, two more are detailed and armed for hangers. The JABO force consistis of heavy fighters armed with 1k eggs and rockets. The goon force is 2 or more C47's; and they are dispatched on a diffrent course with a final IP that is NOT on the target field. The JABO's transit ahead of the buffs; and once over the target field they DO NOT attack it; but instead, CAP it. The buffs arrive within 2 minutes of the JABO's and proceed to take down the acks and hangers.. this takes two passes, at most three.. 3 to 4 1/2 minutes tops. Once acks and hangers are down; JABO's are free to engage low assetts and enemy armor. B26's re-route to the GOONS IP, descened and proceed with goons back toward the target. By this time; the JABO's will have dispatched any remaining armor on the field, sounded the all clear for the goons to approach and be RE-GRABBING to establish hi-cap over the field; with some elements from the JABO force sweeping towards the next closest enemy field for intercept of interlopers.
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Hangtime = ]-[onker? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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attention knights...we have cracked the top secret bishcode...see sbove msg labeled "hangtime".we now have the secret plans of FAST ATTACK and can defend agasinst it.
ops officer
headquarters g-2
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Hang yer talents are truely wasted in the land of the bish
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Gimme 5 loaded 190's flown by LW pilots, and I shall give you a captured field (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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I've been a part of way more succesful 3 person (2 jabo + goon) field captures than I have with these large lumbering missions. Although they are alotta fun, from my perspective the failure to success ratio for these types of attacks has been less than stellar.
Obviously, you have the larger dar profile of 10+ dots comming in, so the advantage you attain through your large numbers is nullified by the amount of prepared defence you are likely to recieve.
Hang - I would be tempted to use the number of guys you get signed up a bit more creatively. Send them on smaller, related, but seperate tasks. The sledgehammer approach aint all that great in terms of bang fer the buck.
Also, in my opinion "Fast Attack" tactics using Buffs is a bit like an oxymoron. Buffs are obsolete for anything but strategic targets. There is simply too much time between the nme country getting the heads-up, to the moment that yer Buffs reach their target.
I'm not sure how much 'suprise' factors into these things... but whatever the amount - you have lost it. Even if the time difference to base didn't factor in, once yer buff/s has been spotted, the nme has a very clear idea of what you're up to. Add to this the fact the Buff is unidimensional; once it drops its eggs, it goes home.
JABO can do everything needed in securing a base, as well as CAP, and do it with alot more speed.
Also - the goon has to be there. If the mission planner has no goon signed up, he should halt that mission till one does. The goon has to be *AT* that field * THE MOMENT* that the last bit of defence has been put down. It is absolutley useless to even bother if the goon is not rolling at the same time the main group is. Do not call for a goon once yer ready for one. Call well beforehand.... even delaying your attack until you can synch up your timing.
A general rule of thumb that I've learned about taking fields is:
If ya don't take it within five minutes of your 1st plane arriving there, it is likely you will never take it.
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LOL Santa.. MA has CHANGED. It's a rare thing indeed to have an attack as you describe obtain anything more than a contested field.. the successful un-contested JABO only grab is rare indeed in an arena with 175 pilots equipped with a cockpit accssesed radar map.. Nowdays you need to attack with superior force and altitude or you fail.
BBGunn, I've tried using escorts for the goons and have had poor success. From my own experience in a P51.. if i see a goon; it's dead. No escort can stop me.. it's just a matter of getting down to him. The secret to success for the goon teams is in hiding effectively. Near the target, but out of sight; with the goons in several locations.. finding one does not reveal the location of another. Further.. if the attacked field is correctly capped and closed in a timely fasion; remaining defensers can be dealt with rather effectively before they can get to a postion to threaten the goon.
John9001.. only way to stop a FAST ATTACK mission thats being properly executed is to locate and destroy the goon force or preferably; neutralise the Buff force. If either the BUFF force or JABO force makes it to the field uncontested; the field is CLOSED. In that circumstance; even if the goons are located you still have a field in ruins; with more goons and a second attack formation on the way.. the battle escalates... and it gets real ugly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Frenchy; the knits and rooks have been using a similar profile for months now. We have not. I'm giving away nothing.. and hopefully educating the Bish on how to get the job done. So often we have the assets and willing pilots to get outta the bucket, but they just don't know how to go about getting it done. I believe it's only because they don't fully appreciate or understand what the relationship is between themseleves and those friendly buffs and goons on the way to the target is and what it should be.. or they have a diffrent agenda and are looking to their own intrests, not those of the bish as a whole.
Staga.. come join us.. several of us are workin mighty hard at turning the bish mob into a team, there lots good guys here too.. and good pilots always get the best grog over here. We're gettin better all the time... and I'd love ta fly with yah again. We'll have fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" <<<< Recruiting!
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I see the point of refrence Nash.. but I disagree. The med buff has a big role to play.. if you use it's strengths.
B26's across the normal distance between fields can be on target at attack altitudes witin 2-3 minutes of the arrival of JABO fighters dispatched at the same time. If those fighters were Capping and clearing the 8-12k airspace OVER the field instead of hitting the fixed ground targets ON the field that the buffs were detailed to hit and INSTEAD attacked the defending low fighters and any armor AFTER those assets were down we'd lose far fewer JABO fighters and close the field down JUST AS FAST.. possibly faster.
More often than not the JABO's MISS the VH and or FH's and get pegged by the acks or jumped by low defenders and just waste themselves uselessly. The B26's on the other hand require far fewer passes to destroy the assets and can do so with minimum risk and significantly greater accuracy. General rule of thumb.. if it's moving, it's a JABO target. If it's a fixed installation it belongs to the buffs.
FAST ATTACK does work.. when the JABO teams fly the profile. When 13th TAS had buff and goon pilots we'd run a variation of this profile.. to my knowledge it never failed to capture a field; tho sometimes we suffered 20-50% losses clearing out the defenders after the hangers and acks went down. But back then, rockets didn't work well and Ponys were poor JABO platforms against osties and m16's. That's changed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!> Nash.. and thanks for the help in those missions!
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" <<<< Recruiting!
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Many MA pilots look to kill, not really take fields. they will prefer grab a fig and go for the "easy vulch" rather than taking a buff and kill a FH/VH.
Diving 3-4 planes after the same plane who is buzzing the deck is the same overall behavior. It's MA behavior, and that's good you are working toward changing it, but I think they fly like this by choice; not really because they were never lucid enought to not realize the consequences. They are not stupid.
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I agree they ain't stupid Frenchy.. merely ignorant.
What vulch pilots gonna get vulch kills when the radar goes down because we failed to shut off the enemys offense?
Who enjoys wandering around looking for a fight when he can't see or locate the fight?
How many pilots have left the country they fly with in disgust because their radars down for another three hours for the third time that day?
These guys wanna furball and vultch.. Great!! So do I sometimes.. hell it's fun! I'm stipulating that there are also times when it's necessary to band together and go on the attack as a group to insure that our radar stays up; or even better; deny the enemy his to improve your hunting later.
I'm just laying out a roadmap of HOW TO DO IT TO THEM BEFORE THEY GET IT DONE TO YOU.
The cure for stupidity is death. The cure for ignorance is education.
<S!>
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" <<<< Recruiting!
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I think you're getting close Hang, but since suprise and speed are going to be disregarded, here's what you're looking at:
An enemy country that sees on dar a huge bar amassed adjacent to one of its fields. Eventually it sees 5-6 dots (JABO) appear inbound, followed by another 3-4 dots (Buffs). It knows your intention. It has the VH standing and the field dar keeping them aprised of the scale and location of the threat. It also has 3-5 minutes of time since the incoming threat was identified, plus another 3-4 minutes while the orbiting JABO awaits the Buffs.
This is the recipe of an Osty nightmare.
So now you've lost the immediate capture... as yer gonna need to clear out the Osty... and this could take ton of time/resources to do. Lets say it takes 7 minutes (optimistic) and your goon is probably 3 minutes out.
That gives the nme country 10 minutes to up from an adjacent field and engage your Jabo who are now low and short of ammo (osty hunt). Your goon is probably not protected and yer buffs are no help.
Interesting discussion Hang <S>.
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Best results we've had on attacks were when a bomber went in solo and destroyed the FH and/or VH at a base. Then 4 Jabo planes come in and clean everything up. The C47 comes in just a minute later.
AKDejaVu
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Rge that.. surprise is gone the moment the mission launches.. ours; or theirs. That damn bar-graph radar map in every cockpit with 175 people on line precludes any sizeable attack from getting to the target undetected.. and that includes a jabo-only raid; let alone the ol tried and true 2 plane sneak grab.
A JABO-only strike would necessarily contain about 5-6 fighters and 1 goon minimum to assure VH and FH's going down; assume 1/2 of that force is destroyed while obtaining the initial objective.. closing the VH, the FH and dealing with acks. Now, two or three fighters remain.. assuming the enemy got a few osties out and managed to up a couple of fighters, it's looking very grim indeed for the attackers. A 50% or better casualty rate; and more of the enemy close by than friendlies.
What about the goon(s)?? Will the remaining attack group have sufficient e and altitude to protect it? And kill the remining field defenders?
We've both seen and done a buncha succesful and less than succesful JABO only raids.. They fail most often not due to lack of skill or tenacity of the attackers part.. rather it's the defenders close proximity to additional assets (refuel/rearm pads) and quicky mounting numbers if any single element in the raid misses his target in the first few moments of the attack.
With the combined rescorces of both the med alt buffs and the JABO's, each employed to it's strengths, the field is completly closed down in the least amount of time for the lowest losses to the attackers.
Scenario.. FAST ATTACK group ups.. enemy sees the jump on the bar graph and sounds the alarm. Defenders scramble. The JABO's heading directly to the field and having a 1-3 minute jump on the defenders are there with more alt. 1/2 of them discard the ords and begin working down the defending fighters. Not many; if any will be above you on your arrival so the JABO team holds the alt and numbers edge and clears the 8-12k airspace for the buffs comming in behind.
More defenders scramble; osties begin to leak out. Not all of the enemy is in the air here.. but the numbers are increasing as enemy downed in other locations around the map begin to up for defense. Assume 5 defending fighters; 5 osties out. Buffs arrive. VH and FH down in first pass. Acks all down by second pass along with local dar and BH's.
The 5 defending fighters are not concerned with the JABO's anymore.. they want the buffs and failing that; they are looking for the goons. Since the buffs are above the JABO's at this point, they spread out low and fast on a reciprocial course, backtracking the attack; looking for the goons.... and now these guys are easy meat for the 'empty' JABO's.. 1/2 go in to get the goon hunters; the other half work on the osties.
Time elapsed.. less than 5 minutes since the first egg fell; few if any JABO's are lost yet; all enemy rescorces are down AND THE JABO'S NOW CONTROL THE AIRSPACE OVER THE FIELD!
Osties tend to roll to a postion then freeze to increase fire accuracy.. and those buffs overhead still have eggs... and so do 1/2 the fighters. The ostie numbers are worn down.. cleared; goons are called in...
Add in a 5 plane pre-strike light fighter sweep and the FAST ATTACK has an even larger edge over the JABO only strike. Still the key to success in FAST ATTACK remains the JABO group.. just as it does in JABO only. The diffrence is in the tasking of the heavy fighters. They HAVE to stick to the profile and let the buffs work...
It's a teamwork issue mostly; but if the JABO's know what they are responsible for, and fly the profile, the system does work, and work better against a contested field than JABO only.
My fingers hurt. Gonna go kill something in the main. If we have radar. If we have any fields left.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" <<<< Recruiting!
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Hhehe. Mors ab alto and all that. Your biggest problem Hang is going to be personnel.
Some declassified bits of ]-[onker's doctrine:
The goon pilot is not an afterthought. Your best pilot needs to be in the goon. Everybody else has a primary job of protecting the goon, largely by not drawing any cons to it.
In WB, 925 CABS ops are not regularly advertised on the country channel, but not because we don't like outsiders. Rather, the "typical assault" mentality is insuperable. In any case, you only need a core of disciplined warriors to meet your objectives; add on one or two reasonably disciplined newbies, and you're in business.
Finally, I'll leave you with the conclusion of an essay by George Haering, then head of the STrike Warfare Branch within the Cguef if Naval Ops' Systems ANalysis Division, on "How Tactical Air Works": 5 generalizations applicable from WWI to AH:
The tactical offense is easier and more effective than the tactical defense.
The offense must attack an important target system and pulverize it.
The offensive planning should not rely heavily on new weapons as sources of revolutionary effectiveness to make the attack overwhelming.
Double and triple check your intelligence. Don't take anything for granted.
If you want an initial learning period, or have inadequate force, don't alert the enemy by attacking a fragment of a decisive target system.
If you ever come over to knits give me a call.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 01-23-2001).]
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Ok, given the tactic of numerical superiority in spite of speed and effeciency, here's what I would suggest...
The Osty problem can be completely avoided if you just give up 2 JABO fighters to pre-strike before the main group even launches.
2 hvy fighters don't attract a whole lot of attention, especially when approaching the field from diferent locations. Fighter 1 dives on VH, dropping 2 1ks. Second fighter follows him down dropping a 3rd. VH is done. I've rarely seen an Osty spawn before the VH is hit like this. The 2nd Fighter immels and drops his final egg on dar (or quick guns burst does the job also).
Now you've got a situation where their VH is down and their lights are out. Sure, they may see a green bar, but psychologically, this is way less of a beacon to most of the MA'ers who equate actual dots with 'lotsa things to kill' and will come running to defend.
It seems most folks have forgotten how important taking out dar is. I posit that it's *just* as important a target as the VH... and exactly the same deal breaker that it was in Beta, if left standing.
Anyways, the VH and dar will be out for more than enough time it takes to bring the main group in to do the leveling. Plus you've got 2 AC in a fighter role to hassle the uppers and keep them from attaining an altitude that could threaten the buffs.
Hang - I would seriously consider this... Once you've picked a target, but before you start writing the mission, request this profile. Ask it of people whom you know can handle it and won't get distracted. When the mission is ready to roll - you'll have a much easier time of things.
Also... these 2 Jabos must take care not to hit any ack. Not knowing how long ack have been down, or having them start to respawn sporadically (say, when yer goon is dropping), is a real problem. All ack must be downed at the same time.
Having people signed up 'in the buff flight' or 'in the JABO flight' etc. is not enough. During your commute, talk to each guy personally and outline his specific target (ie. left side of field ack) as well as his contingency plans or secondary target. Make them responsible for something *in particular*. This will avoid redundancy, but more importantly - it will make them *responsible* for some specific goal. You'll get alot more discipline and adherence to the mission this way. Additionally - take pains to be in constant contact with your Goons and thier exact whereabouts.
Another thing I'll add is that once you've pretty much decided on a target, take a close look at the closest field. In alot of cases, this will be a better choice. Sometimes easier, and allowing you to capture your initial pick with much more authority.
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Hangtime sez:
BBGunn, I've tried using escorts for the goons and have had poor success. From my own experience in a P51.. if i see a goon; it's dead. No escort can stop me.. it's just a matter of getting down to him.
Boy you aren't kidding. A few weeks back somebody (hey, I forget which country, you non-rooks are just all nice red targets to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) was making a massive attack on one of our ports, I think P42. In the middle of it, with me in a mere Spitfire V, I dove into the middle of 12+ enema and gunned down three C-47s in 30 seconds before they got me--the last C-47 died to nothing but my .303s. I'm not bragging on my skill here, I'm not that good, I'm just agreeing with Hang that you could put escorts all over, around, above, below, and beside a C-47, and one guy with 10,000 feet of altitude to convert to airspeed, and a good shooting eye, is still gonna nail it every time.
If you know what you're doing you can use the "MA mentality" against people to get good results. Take tonight. There I was, toodling along south of 40 in my trusty P-47D-30, catching up to a Rook buff strike that was in the midst of circling to reform their formation before plodding on to blast 21. I was at about 18k, when I looked off my left wing and saw two enemy F6Fs at about 22k, moving in toward the buffs.
I dropped my tanks and slid in behind the lead F6F, but he had at least 50 knots on me and I could get no closer than 700 yards, and just scattered a few hundreds rounds of caliber .50 in his general direction as the range re-opened. Meanwhile, his wingman was under 1000 yards behind me and closing. Seeing no alternative, I started a turning dive out, which turned into a full-blown patented Thunderbolt plummet when I realized just how fast the other guy in the Kitty was going. I had no shot at the lead F6F, and I wasn't gonna sit there and let his wingman get an easy kill.
But fortunately for me, the guy in the lead F6F broke low and came after *me*. As did his wingman, who closed to within 600 yards in the dive. (As an aside, my God, can those Hellcats dive. 550 mph indicated on the pullout and the wingman stayed right with me. He did good to keep the wings on it.) So both Hellcats chased me, figuring they could get an easy kill. Meanwhile...several Rook buffs slammed 21 and we captured it about 10 minutes later. And the best part was that once the Kitties broke off and were engaged by other Rooks, I wound up getting a kill on one of them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Getting the kill was just a bonus. I figured I did my job when I distracted those attackers away from the bombers.
Moose (fpmoose)
The Flying Pigs
OINK! OINK! TO WAR!!
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Nash I agree 100% on all those points.. pre-raid Vh and dar shutdown can make the diffrence between a bitter fight and a clean sweep. Suprise; whenever possible should be sought and prized as a jewel beyond price. And hitting the field ajacent to the objective right on the money. Good idea the other night, we'll run that one again sometime. By a knats bellybutton we missed that one. A knats ass... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Unfortunatly; the planner spits everything out at once... everything rolls at the same time, and the immediate solution is as you said.. detail the task to a skilled pair of JABO experten.. and send em out 10 min before the raid rolls. A perfect job fer the LW. Do we HAVE a knit LW?? damme...
What I'm working toward is a 'playbook' where all the bish squad leaders can work co-operativly on a mission objective.. not a single mission all squads are in. In other words; one squad handles the pre-raid VH and dar takedown at SEVERAL fields simultaneously with it's own planned mission; another squad launches the light fighter sweep on it's mission planner; a third does the JABO task and another does the buff and goon work. All know the others tasks and have their missions up and they share in the objective.
Baby steps at first tho.. each element has to know whats expected, it's tasks and stick to the target objectives and mission profile, thus we do these 'hammer strikes' as you so aptly put it. So we can all, via working the Mission together; try and build a bit of familiarization with the various tasks involved in a succesful organized attack. With that in mind, for now; all elements are on the same mission planner..
I'd like to get a consensus on what night most bish squads fly; and maybe have a RW symposium on using the mission planner. If we spent a half hour learning how to configure and set waypoints; loadouts; etc then all the squad leaders in bishland could and hopefully would contribute and co-operate on mission objectives. JCY19 (Airwolves) and myself have had some fun with this coperative mission setup already.. and it can only get better as the various groups get a feel for what has to happen, when, and where in order for it to work well.
Surprisingly, I rarely have trouble fillin the buff slots.. there's quite a few good buff pilots out there; and for these missions I'll usually take a goon or a buff myself to try and keep things organised. Stuff happens too fast in a fighter cocpit to type; observe and react to that bogie on my six. Seems I always die first too. that helps LOADS lemme tell yah..
Normally the buffers know precisely what to hit and who's hitting what, (I do brief them directly) most of these guys have flown with me before and know the drill. They have their primary; secondary and after bombs out jobs; and go about 'em pretty damn good. Blowin the hell outta the fields major assets in a couple of minutes is NOT the problem... gettin the JABO fighters to hold up and cap till thats done IS. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tonight we had squad night; all of 1st/AG showed up and we went to the knit fleet several times; and sank the damn thing every time we came... great fun; and reassuring to all of us that the Big Bad Boat is no biggie to kill if 6 guys go in together.. we're still gettin used to each other and workin out the responsibilties and routines too.
Each and every FAST ATTACK Mission is a training mission.. we get better at 'em each time we run 'em. Soon, it'll be come automatic. A target will be specified; time given, and the troops will form up to do the jobs, and know what needs to be done from a quick look that the core mission laid out on the planner.
If anybodys intrested in a RW symposium on using the Mission Planner; let me know, we'll set up a good time and learn how to use the tool that can turn chaos into mayhem. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Moose.. yah done good. An escorts only job is to drive or lure the fighters off the buff stream.. once the fighter is not a threat; he should break off his attack and rejoin the formation. All to often I find the entire escort package followig a smoking attacker down to the weeds... leaving the buff stream wide open and defenseless against the next attacker. Funny stuff.
It's that MA mentality again.. damme if it don't drive me up the wall.. sometimes. On the other hand sometimes it gets me laughin hystericly... like I said, yah see some pretty funny stuff on these missions.
Dingr.. yer post explains Funked's post.. and can now infer that somebodys been down this path I'm on before. Anyplace I can view this document? Sounds like it might help... 925th CABS hunh? Yup.. I flew with the Pale Horses, did 'scort work for u boys on occasion. <S!>
<S!> All thanks fer the input.
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Hang, broke your stick as well ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Good post! If I might put a note :
It is still possible to fetch a field with JABO's Only (meaning without Buffs). We have done it on multiple occasions with the Knit Mob (Mag33 runs). The main reason was speed, a Buff will take too much time to climb to 10K (RE: acks safetry alt).
Have the light (eggless) fighters straffe the aaa's , the hvy ones on the Hangars (who then will straffe ressources, depending on future projects...). With a little timing...it can and has been done.
Cheers,
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MASS/SAW
click HERE (http://eismeer.port5.com/) for info on III./JG 5 Eismeer
"kindergarden must be closed... all those little girls running around screaming..."
-Fd ski
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I know Saw.. but; I've caught a few of those raids and stopped 'em cold on the capture with just 1 or two fighters.. I get to the goons.. Muahahhanaahaaa
On other occasions when yah came back in force w/ 10-12 fighters yah often get the takedown. It tends to get messy, tho. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) <S!> You guys put up a good jabo raid.. when I see MAG in the buffer I know bish is losing fields again.
I KNOW JABO only works.. lordy; I've been to rook and knit fields that had 4 or 5 FDB's jaboing it fer awile.. lord o'mighty I couldn't launch a kite from those fields fer hours after we get em. Toatal wasteland. I find out where you MAG guys keep yer socks, and I'll ask the FDB's to drop on by to vist it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The only problem is JABO only attacks is that unless it's carefully co-ordinated, it results in fields where the assets are regenning sporadicly.. a goon gits it's troops fragged when an ack pops up.. the VH suddenly spewes hordes of osties; it gets real ugly and costly. Who wants to die 4 times tryin to goon; or get fragged by the same VH regen for the third time? FAST ATTACK! Is more efficent. Kill the place entire in 2-3 min. Snap it up; refuel; rearm and MOVE ON. There's plenty of JABO work still.. it's just a whole lot less 'messy'.
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Hang, you are talking on an open channel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Voss 13th T.A.S.
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If we just play the game then one pair of eyes in the tower and 1-2 fast diving planes around and ready to jump on the goons/troops can push "goons required" number to ~4. And usually there is enough time between "attack spotted" and "goon arrives" to grab ~10k from the nearest field. Especially if goons wait out of dot range.
I think with a descent gameplay there is no such thing as "perfect" attack or whatever. Either quite large superiority in numbers required (no need in good plan then :-) or there is some countermeasure to the plan.
Conclusion: bishops can not win and most time suck :-) But they know what can be done with numbers though and use it in some attacks :-)
PS Great writeup !
PPS I hope someone got a kill while Hangtime been writing this ? :-)
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I agree cave. A good B26 pilot is the answer. He can drop 4-5 ack in the time that half of your fighters can die trying to do the same thing(first pass). He has excellent observation ability to watch for hot cons. He can vulch he can draw incoming fighters away. Its almost like the B26 was meant for it.
The Goon has to be on the ball. And he has to be in voice coms.
The cap has to stay high as long as they can. No vulching for the top two fighters. They have to be ponys or something fast that can play position on the high cons inbound. Make them commit short of the field.
The goon has to pop up to drop from 800 and get low and get out of there. High goons draw attention to the drop.
I would say that most captures that have good fighter pilots fail because of goon skill or poor communication to the goon from the fighters.
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Hang,
Your assessment of "overall" bish tactics is right on! Lotta numbers and little tactics. Another thing I've noticed is that as a whole, little attention is given to protecting crucial airfields, while a forward..mostly tactically useless airfield is contested over.
My squad is big into organized tactics. We would be glad to join in these kind of OPS, while we are still bish.
Jarbo
OPS officer
The Buccaneers
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"...as you said.. detail the task to a skilled pair of JABO experten.. and send em out 10 min before the raid rolls. A perfect job fer the LW."
Blasphemer!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The random factor plays a great role here. In the last days my squad spotted some big Bish raids inbound a Knight field.
Well, 4-5 aggressive defenders well positioned with voice comm can stop an 10-15+ a/c raid. We like to do it. We first search for bombers and C47s. Then we go for fighters.
In one of them, Hangtime and his B26 was my first kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), followed by two sweeping Ponies (not very good at close dogfighting).
So, if a coordinated squad spots your raid your in danger. BTW, it was great fun. <S>!
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Btw Hang... I like where yer going with this stuff.
And this type of thing beats the typical Uber-Chog HO-Dweeb whiney snivveling flame fest hands down.
It's crazy how much we *don't* discuss tactics/strat on this board, really. I dunno why that is.
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Hang:
the MA might have changed, but the skill of 9./JG 54 "Grünherz" is still so much greater than anything else to eradicate such changes.
Gimme 5 190G8's, and all shall be destroyed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Seriously though, very nice posts. I do think however that with 5-7 planes, it is possible to take out a small field despite it being contested. My squad has done so before, even though *only one egg* makes it difficult because of the dweeb ostwinds that ineitably have time to spawn in numbers following the equation [number of LW jabo's +1].
It'll be interesting when I get my joystick.
And STOP making the bishites look intelligent. We all know you're not. You must be part Knight, funked; which, incidentally, I can explain.
It has something to do with your mother, lots of beer, a blindfold for my father and a wild "post-capture-of-bishop-field-with-the-natural-plundering-and-copulations-with-the-native-population".
So who's yer daddy?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
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And STOP making the bishites look intelligent. We all know you're not. You must be part Knight, funked
Simply evil. OTOH, I agree (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Don't worry your secret is safe with us Knights.
We have our own game plan and it goes something like this....
Knight1: Guys we are gonna lose P42 if you don't come down and help us!
Rest of Knights: No we have to keep A1!
Knight1: Guys we've lost P41 and 4 other bases and are getting ready to lose P22 come down and help us!
Rest of Knights: No we have to keep A1!
Knight1: Guys we've lost P22, A19 and A18 and they are headed for A17 can you come help?
Rest of Knights: No we have to keep A1!
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All warfare is based on deception. There is no place where espionage is not used. Offer the enemy bait to lure him. Sun Tzu [/i]
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LOL Gatt.. I remember that run. 15 seconds on the target; and *BOOM*, "AAArrgh!!!" While in my chute; I looked around, and watched the fight progress. Our JABO ponies's were being sliced up as they came off target, no effective sweep was done first.. The ponies just ran in and started dropping ords on what the buffs were gonna hit anyway, instead of holding the airspace over the field and driving you guys down. Great defense btw... it's actions like that that vividly display the need for the various attack sections to clearly understand what the timing is and what the prioritys are.
I favor the using F6F's and F4U's in the JABO role; with air superiority at medium to high alts handled by light ponies, N1K's, 109/190's etc.... assuming I can get enuff JABO's and light fighters into the mission. If I have a fully staffed mission (15 planes) then if any of the JABO's have to jettison ords to cover buffs or goons; the F6F's are detailed and the F4U's are left with the JABO work. If I can only get a few JABO's in the mission; I send Heavy ponies in.. and if they are needed to sweep defenders they're supposed to just jettison the ords and do the cap and goon defense, leaving the ground defenses to the Buffs entirely.
If anybody doubts the ability of a JABO pony to function in a multi-role enviornment, look up RWY and watch him work.. I've seen him pound out the VH; strip a field of it's acks and roll up a 8-10 kill sortie on a field assault. By himself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We're learning. Once we get this FAST ATTACK deal working right and it'll take a real determined and sizeable group of well placed defenders to stop 'em.. if they can be stopped at all.
Pongo.. right on the money. Gimme 4 sharp B26 divers, 4 to 8 sharp JABO operators that can stay on the program and a coupla savvy goon drivers and those 10-12 guys can roll up a buncha fields in a hurry. The B26 is an incredible ATTACK platform if the pilot stops thinking "LEVEL BOMBER" and starts thinkin "WILD WEASEL". The Ju88 is competent also; particularly in the dive bombing mode; but lacks the forward gun punch, speed and defensive armament of the B26. The only thing the B26 is missing is rockets, more nose gun ammo and wings that don't pop off if yah honk on it in the turns.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Gimme an A26 in this program and all hell will break lose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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Right on Rip.. we have spies amongst us. I know it. I plan around it, but still it's costly. Holds up mission profiles, forces regenning plans for diversionary raids, forces unnecessary losses of assets in overhelming altered defenders, makes the size of the main attack necessarily larger and more cumbersome too. War is hell.
Lately, I've reverted to high alt buffing arranged in private in advance of a large operation to cut off dars and support assets and facilities likely to be used when our public plans go out over the country channel. It's had a noticeable effect in reducing the effectiveness of the enemy's response when we come in force. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Also, high alt buffing of the enemy's origin fields when HE goes on the offensive is execptionally effective.. You have spies too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hang, that's not what the post had to do with(Spies amongst us), I can get all the information I need from the bar dar, and by deception, for a successful jabo.
However, I do shoot any chutes that may be hanging around longer than 30 seconds! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hangtime:"You have spies too."
Sad to see your country must resort to this in order to beat us, shows you how much better we are than you. IMO... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-24-2001).]
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Hangtime,
I participated in my first mission online a couple days ago with you. Tho I was in a B26 that got shot down before reaching the target, it was great to be able to participate. We took the field anyway after our cv came in (it was a24). I've never participated before mostly because I'm affraid of something coming up and having to log in the middle while being tasked with something crucial. I thought it was kinda funny when you explained what my target was (the fh) and that it was the smaller of the hangar things. I'm really glad that you and some of the other bish are taking the lead and organizing raids and thinking tactically/strategically. I've been online and with the bish since October 98, and have learned a lot on the way. Discussions like this are important; I think it gives the newbies who don't just like to furball something to be a part of (not to mention the vets who got tired of furballing).
I'll try to participate when I can, either in the aircraft designated by the planner, or as a separate entity. I'm sure my squaddies in Sturmjaeger will also participate when they can. <S> to the hard-working bish who try to get things organized.
mauser
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LOL Rip.. we don't recruit 'em.. they're just disgruntled weenies, some in every crowd. Part of the landscape here in AH too. Kick over a rock; "Well, lookit that. Another damn wailing weenie". Poor jerks, something wrong with those guys, yah ask me.
And we also know how to read a dar bar, and use waypoint routing to confuse or misdirect the situation when and where it's appropriate. Playin 'Stategic Chess' with you guys is fun, but whats more fun is watchin 15-20 planes head out to do a job. When push comes to shove, what counts is results.
<S!>
Hey Mauser!.. thanks fer joining in.. entity or otherwise. Seen you helping out before too. I appreciate it.. and it IS fun as all hell; ain't it?? <S!>
Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-24-2001).]
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The most effective missions that I have seen from all countries is when are they not only well executed but have a more strategic element in them. By that I mean interdicting the surrounding fields and taking out the fighter hangers. If I am online and see a mission forming I will up a single bomber to hit the FHs of the nearby fields and begin the deacking to get those fields ready for the next mission. The JU 88 is especially good due the ability to load out the 4 x 550kgs for the Fh and the 20 x 50s for the acks.
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Milo
3./JG2
"Swager's Angels"
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Ahhh.. so it WAS you Milo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!>
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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders" << Recruiting!!
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
......Guys we are gonna lose.......
......No we have to keep A1!.....
Guys we've lost....and 4 other bases.....getting ready to lose.........
....No we have to keep A1!.......
.....Guys we've lost.. and they are headed for.....can you come help?........
.......No we have to keep A1!......
It sounds like I have been online the same times you have been online lately......
Fury