Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tac on January 01, 2002, 02:29:00 PM
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Cmon, its idiotic to show a bar dar at less than 500ft, with 1 field per sector (mostly), it doesnt take a retard a minute to figure that a big bar dar flying behind their front fields is NOE planes.
There is no way to make a low level buff raid because you instantly get la7's and 109s tearing up the low level planes to pieces.
Get rid of bar dar below 500ft, make DOT dar show planes if they inside 2 miles from the field. Planes still have to get at least 7k above field to avoid getting butchered by the sniperack anyway, so WHY is there bar dar for below 500ft NOE planes????
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Agreed. Soon as Ripsnort finds this post, I'm pretty sure you can add his voice to this hehe....
Let's also fix the amazing B17/ackstar's punch. My G10's are getting 1-ping engine dead hits from as far as 2.6k away. <drums fingers>.
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Bar dar under 500ft takes away another possible mission type from the arena. We have one of the finest NOE planes in the arena in the shape of the Mosquito and it can perform one of its greatest roles.
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Not in the MA.
We have a CT for that type of stuff.
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Originally posted by Tac:
Cmon, its idiotic to show a bar dar at less than 500ft, with 1 field per sector (mostly), it doesnt take a retard a minute to figure that a big bar dar flying behind their front fields is NOE planes.
There is no way to make a low level buff raid because you instantly get la7's and 109s tearing up the low level planes to pieces.
Get rid of bar dar below 500ft, make DOT dar show planes if they inside 2 miles from the field. Planes still have to get at least 7k above field to avoid getting butchered by the sniperack anyway, so WHY is there bar dar for below 500ft NOE planes????
until HT has a way to alert u of enemy GV attack, we will have sector dar bars under 500 feet.
whels
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Hi All,
Perhaps it would work if Bar Dar was eliminated below 500ft (GV's included) until the 1st structure is hit, that way a sneak attack would still be feasable but would give the defending side a chance to protect the field.
TTFN
snafu
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add a 3rd color bar dar for gv's then. they shouldnt be detected unless they 2 miles from the base as well.
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How about having observation posts set up at various points on the map that you could jump into from the tower?They could of course be taken out with a bomb or tank...You could pop in and look about for sneak attacks with your binoculars.This might work well if under 500ft dar was removed and give you something to consider before you mindlessly click into another plane in the hanger. :p
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Nice idea TAC....it does add another dimension when flying in the CT. I, too, would like to see it in the MA. But Whels brought up a good point (one I don't think of often as I don't do alot of GV assaults) and that is the missing dar bar for GV's. I suspect the crew at HTC could come up with some idea to help with that issue though.
RASCAL
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Originally posted by whels:
until HT has a way to alert u of enemy GV attack, we will have sector dar bars under 500 feet.
whels
Whels is probably right on this one...
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How about get rid of Dar Bar below 3000 ft (just for arguments sake) then add a 'circle' around or an 'X' on an airfield under attack? That, as posted above, would be triggered once a base structure was destroyed. It would then be up to the 'team' to show up at the airfield and determine the type of attack and how to respond to it.
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Sundog ]
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So....you want no DAR BAR under 500 feet so you can fly your planes past enemy lines to some undefended airfield and try to vulch/pork it?
Thank you, but no. Milkrunning is already rampant in AH. Field capture is already far too easy. The absolute last thing AH needs is a setting which makes it impossible to defend your country without CAPPING every airfield at the same time.
Yes, defenders could take off once you were in a "2 mile dot dar range". Of course by the time they saw the dots and got to the field they'd be taking off only to be vulched, which is presumably the intent of the suggestion. Removal of bar dar at 500 feet shows they DON'T want any real interception.
As for the acks? Everyone knows as well as I do that a few planes can easily de-ack anything up to a large field. Small fields and vehicle bases would be utterly helpless--again, which is probably the intent here.
I thought this game was supposed to be about air combat, not about avoiding people to kill AI (field acks). Something that allows people to AVOID air combat has no place in the MA. The DAR as it is has nothing to do with reality; it's there for one thing and one thing only--to provide as much information to the pilot as possible while providing defenrders with a slight advantage (dot dar range).
The sad thing is I see a lot of "experts" asking for this sort of setting. Why? Why the heck do you play AH if you don't want to fight other airplanes? IL2 does a better job of simulating ground attack and doesn't require pay-for-play. Seriously, what is the attraction of flying to some undefended base and vulching people?
J_A_B
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JAB, you must have missed a couple threads on this subject:
Basically how it would work is like this:
A Dot Dar radar would be effective at 25 miles, ie, no matter WHAT alt you are at, you'd show up on the dot dar. The bar dar just allows you to go from point A to point B by taking an indirect route around neighboring fields, as to not give yourself away...as soon as you start to stray near a field to attack it, you are detected 25 miles out from Dot Dar. Not only is the offensive low, but very vulnerable. And the defender has plenty of time to get up and defend their field as well.
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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as already stated, try CA for a better dar setup ..
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"A Dot Dar radar would be effective at 25 miles, ie, no matter WHAT alt you are at, you'd show up on the dot dar."
Unless, of course, the field radar had been killed by a lone Arado flying ahead of the NOE strike. But who would be so devious? :)
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Originally posted by popeye:
"A Dot Dar radar would be effective at 25 miles, ie, no matter WHAT alt you are at, you'd show up on the dot dar."
Unless, of course, the field radar had been killed by a lone Arado flying ahead of the NOE strike. But who would be so devious? :)
Are you implying that we might actually use historical cases in such a way that we would attempt a surprize attack on an enemy country as it historically happened in WW2? Say it ain't so! This is a game! ;) ;)
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Incidently, just have HTC make the radar indestructible, that'll solve that problem. ;)
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J_A_B> NOE was a very real strategy for fighters, heavy fightersand even bombers to avoid detection during WW2, I suppose they were milkrunning too :rolleyes:
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"J_A_B, NOE was a very real strategy for fighters, heavy fighters and even bombers to avoid detection during WW2, I suppose they were milkrunning too "
Indeed it was. So what? In case you haven't noticed, this isn't WW2, this is Aces High. And, your way of putting says it all--NOE was meant to avoid detection. Why would you want to avoid detection in an air combat game?
Ripsnort--I did not see a 25 mile figure in this thread; either I missed it or it was from a different thread. The effect of 25 mile DOT DAR would depend on how DOT DAR works. If planes disappear from DOT DAR down low, then that combined with no DAR BAR would have all the negative implications I mentioned above. Unacceptable.
If planes do NOT disappear from DOT DAR at any altitude, then removal of DAR BAR would be worthless as airfields in AH aren't usually much more than 25 miles apart and thus the defender would still always see your strike (indeed, seeing a mass of red dots with no corresponding DAR BAR would alert them to your altitufde, too).
EDITED FOR THE POST BELOW THIS ONE:
"Even a retard can see a raid coming in before it even takes off."
That means DAR is working as it's meant to be. Good. Finding the enemy--and thus promoting air combat--is the point of the DAR.
J_A_B
[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: J_A_B ]
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exactly. Even a retard can see a raid coming in before it even takes off.
Just add a 3rd color bar dar for gvs when they 2 miles from base.
And have the NOE planes be shown on dot dar if they fly within 2 miles of an installation (factory, field or vbase).
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Lets face it, this isnt just an 'aircombat..' game. Its a game with some strategy (wish more was involved) and numerous vehicles of all sorts. If it was strictly aircombat, 80% of the subscribers would have quit playing this sim after 6 months of play, and HTC knows it..thus all the ground veh. and ships. Dar bar just adds to the ability to "game" the game. which many believe takes a sim that could be very strategic and makes it into a mindless furfestival where as it is now the number of players on one side basically dictates the winner of the war.
As far as ground vehicle assults, there are only a limited # of bases with spawning points and generally the "front" is not that large at any given time and certainly not very fluid due to the "trench" type airbattles and ground battles largely due to the fact that the element of suprise has been eliminated from this game with the 'darbar'. If you need to know if a base is under attack by ground vehicles get in the tower and take a look or have an abbreviated darbar like what tac was suggesting. Since ground vehicles assults capturing a base account for probably less than 2% of the captures (without air support) having no darbar at all for ground vehicles would be a way to clear the skies of some of the less talented (like myself) and give then an opportunity to use their ground assult skills to play an active roll in the overall outcome of the "war".
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Originally posted by Tac:
[QB]
exactly. Even a retard can see a raid coming in before it even takes off.
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you do know that in ww2, germans ccould see allied planes forming over England for raids into germany with use of thier radar. thats why british came up with countermeasures, such as, tin foil strips, and radar jamming
machines.
whels
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Whels, that's because they flew high, many Mossies raids flew low and flew under radar.
Also, the B17's would usually have a duck and decoy, the decoy flying to another target to throw off the ground radar guys into thinking that the main formation was headed somewhere else.
JAB, yes, the previous threads on this subject mentioned the dot dar, which would detect ANY aircraft at ANY altitude,within a 25 mile radius...hmmm, now heres a thought, why not just include the GV's for this dot dar too? That solves the "under 500" issue, we can have both no bar dar under 500, and GV's will still be detected on dot dar...?
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"Unless, of course, the field radar had been killed by a lone Arado flying ahead of the NOE strike. But who would be so devious"
only killing the HQ will bring down bar dar. Killing radar dish in field only drops the dot dar.
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The MA has to cater to all players in the best way possible. For the casual player the DAR is important to be able to assess the situation quickly to find fights easily. For those of us that log on for an hour or less a day this is very important. If you want to do a NOE raid then attack the strat targets that will let you do that within the current set-up, rather than trying to mold the MA into the kind of arena that suits your particular style and time commitment.
Just my .02
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Lars, please tell me how no bar dar below 500ft will affect the ability of players to find a fight. The only thing it does it show them NOE planes in the sector.
Even hitting strat targets is ridiculous. These strat targets are either right by a base (duh, same problem as hitting a base NOE), or they on their own in the middle of a sector (again, duh, if dot dar did not show the cons as they passed through 2 or 3 fields on their way, then its NOE planes for sure..PLUS a big bar dar showing that 10 mossies are flying 100ft from the ground WILL scream "UP NOW!" to everyone). Not to mention they are uncapturable and can be resupplied easily.
Please, HT, dont show bar dar below 500ft AGL.
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Bar dar si fine as it is now. There is enough gangbanging already and without bardar for low ones the field captures would become just milk runs.
If the dar bar can be coupled with NUMBERS then it may be ok. So no dar bar for low ones to the limit of 2 or 3 planes. Or something.
Gangbang hordes should be detected.
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Fields (by that I mean airfields, vfields, factories and cities) should show DOT DAR of planes flying 6 miles around them, no matter what the alt.
If you have an incoming NOE raid, they will be spotted in dot dar 6 miles out. And any kind of raid on a field will require planes to get at least 7k above the field's alt to be able to attack it... 6 miles + climb time = more than enough time for any moron to see a big blob of red 6 miles away from their field and up their spits, n1ks and la7's and flaks. Not to mention that NOE flights will have to be very carefull not to fly inside this 6 mile radius of ANY enemy held field, vbase or field because they would get detected... any NOE raid would have to take a circumventing route to avoid detection.. and if you look at our maps, that sometimes if hard. Now try that with a large mission...there is bound to be some newbie that will fly above 500ft trying to evade a 20ft hill or someone in the formation of planes that will not try to fly 6 miles away from radar and gets detected.
NOE raids will have to be very carefully planned and flown.
Bar dar is not fine as it is.
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Why have the Dar Bar at all? Dar Bar are sector counters that count everyone on the playing field. Coming up with bizarre rules about alt and distance from the field kind of makes the concept useless. You may as well just count dar dots.
In the MA, the HQ tasks of reporting radar contacts and counting activity in sectors are taken care of for us automaticly. They displayed on the clip board map. Since no one in in charge of running the war in MA, I think this works fine.
In special events that are run by some command structure, it should be easy just to turn off dar bar. Let the human command and designated recon and spotters do this work.
Gunner
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J_A_B we all like air t air fighting but we are not going to do that for years on end! at some point you will get what we call 'burn out' where youve done everything a hundred times over.
this is when you NEED new stuff like low jabos and bomber attacks or GV attacks.
I dont care who you are theres no way constant air combat can maintain your attention and enjoyment for longer than a few months.Unless you are a retard like 'Furball laz' :)
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Originally posted by Tac
Lars, please tell me how no bar dar below 500ft will affect the ability of players to find a fight. The only thing it does it show them NOE planes in the sector.
You have a point Tac...but a hat will cover it up :D
Consider this...if you're trying to make the MA more like RL like then you would have to allow spotter posts all throughout the terrain that will give location, alt, speed, direction and type of AC and update this info every few minutes via the text buffer just as it was in RL . No, getting rid of bar dar isn't going to make it more realistic, it'll make the MA even more of a dweebs paradise IMO.
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the 6 mile radius = spotters.
I aint trying to make it more realistic, I just want the bar dar to stop giving away the location of planes... no, not giving away, SCREAMING that there's con in sector when they flying at treetop level.
Picture this... you are going to make a mission to an enemy base or installation thats just behind the "front line" (read: 1 field behind the fowardmost enemy field). You need alt, so you take off from a raised field thats 3 fields behind the "front line".
The very second the mission spawns in the runway a HUGE bar dar pops up screaming whats about to happen. Certainly enough, if the "front" they are going to hit has been quiet, and the enemy sees this huge bar dar come up, they start upping like mad. Result: Mission screwed up just because 1 person on the other team was watching the almighty bar dar and either began screaming about an enemy mission or somehow he got his squad/buddies to up a defense... at virtually the same time YOUR mission is taking off.
Without bar dar below 500ft you would have the option of flying the mission from a closer field, having your bombers fly at 200ft until they are maybe 10 or 15 miles out of target.. or just the 8 miles, depending on plane type and their climb rate OR flying the hi alt missions with hi chance of getting intercepted by those that upped to defend at the same time your mission did.
Remember pre-new version when the HQ raids would come in at 25k or higher? Them lancs and b17s would take off from the other side of the map, and there was little chance of knowing where they were going or what they were hitting until they flew over the homeland, where their intentions were clear. That was the time for a frantic 109 scramble. But now that HQ raids are a waste of time and hitting fields is much more important, its practically stupid to hit a field farther than 1 field behind the front line, and even more impossible to take it and hold it. So now missions up from the homeland, the huge bar dar comes up, everyone knows where those buffs are going (to which country they gonna hit).. and the defenders have ample time to get defense up.
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btw, if HT puts in the 4 bombers per 1 player thingy in v1.09, how do you think the MA will be? massive hordes of 25k b17's dropping eggs with little accuracy (dispersion modeled)? With escorts? And you get to see all of them spawning in their backfields thanks to bar dar.
Wouldnt it be nice to have a "fly 1 buff only" option? So that you can fly it NOE and achieve much higher bombing accuracy since you are bombing from low alt (8k or less) and have a higher chance of getting to target than the high flying ones? (getting back would be another issue, but thats the trade off). Methinks the B26, Ju88 , TBM and the ki67 would shine in these roles.
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Tac,
I am sure deep undetected strikes would cause a lot of activity on these message boards when people started complaining about it :) Six mile spotters will not give time to counter the attack, so would be useless defensively. I just can't see people in MA wanting to patrol the empty sectors to cover the hole in Dar Bar detection.
For realism, the NOE mission deep behind the lines would be a suicide mission. The only penalty for suicide missions in MA is a quick return to a friendly field. Now if you upped the anty... say 200 perk points for a DarBar stelth sheild, it could get interesting :)
Gunner
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Why are jabo/bombing missions ruined if there is opposition.
You guys make missions just to milkrun?
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My suggestion:
1. If NOE planes 6 or less, dar would not appear. That would give us (rooks) also chances. ;)
2. A country with less numbers could have this advantage. Ofcourse not if numbers are close even. For example 1:3 would give this dar-advantage.
What????? Am I really pissed of being outnumbered and gangbanged. YES!!!!!!!:mad:
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Gunner, those 6 miles are very important. If you want to NOE right up to the base, the ack will kill you. Most buffs will have to begin their climb from 5 to 10 miles out, fighters may only need 4 to 6 miles to get to at least 6 or 7k, depending on their climb rate.
This means that for those 4 to 6 miles or 5 to 10 miles you will have buffs and fighters climbing at around 150mph to get their alt.
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Best to meet 1/2 on this issue, keep bar-dar and dot dar but make it so that the radar net can be destoyed or degraded by attacking radar facilites such as forward radar dishes and command and control bunkers ect. Not just by sending 2 lances over the HQ and one lance to wipe out 3/4 the city like it is now.
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Originally posted by Tac
...If you have an incoming NOE raid, they will be spotted in dot dar 6 miles out. And any kind of raid on a field will require planes to get at least 7k above the field's alt to be able to attack it... 6 miles + climb time = more than enough time for any moron to see a big blob of red 6 miles away from their field and up their spits, n1ks and la7's and flaks...
At 240 mph, 6 miles is covered in 1.5 minutes. At 360, 45 seconds. Time to react to the raid? I doubt it.
Not that I don't think something could (and maybe even should) be done. To figure it out, though, we need to think about what we should be simulating, how to satisfy most (if not all) players, and keep the game playable.
To my mind, bar dar represents the type of information I might get from a ground report... there is a large/medium/small group of planes flying within a 625 square mile area (one sector in AH). Actually, I would also expect some type of altitude information, too. I would only expect this information to be available to me over friendly territory, defined as my original country area, not the areas that I may have occupied. This would represent the loyal citizens and civil defense system of a country reporting what they see when they see it.
In occupied territories, I would only expect this type of information when planes overflew the front lines (defined maybe as 1/2 way between the opposing airfields?) or near an occupied base, city, depot, etc. This would represent reports from troops, but not from the hostile indiginous (sp?) population which would rather see the invaders gone.
In enemy controlled territory, I would not expect to get any bar dar information at all. There is no source available.
So, how would this effect NOE? It would certainly allow them into territory originally belonging to your side. It would also allow them over the ocean. Sure, as soon as they overflew enemy territory they would be spotted, but is that really unrealistic? It would, IMHO, allow realistic use of NOE strikes as opposed to having some rear base or HQ suddenly come under attack with no warning.
Possibly, you would need to show bar dar (maybe another color?) over enemy territory to indicate the type of information you might have on high altitude raids developing. Maybe having a yellow bar appear to represent planes over 10 or 15k. All sides had the ability to detect the high altitude bomber streams in plenty of time to intercept.
Dot dar? Well, I like dot dar. I prefer the quick fight to a long patrol looking for a bogie. I prefer to look for 1 vs 1 or so if I can find one. Dot dar helps do that. Without dot dar, everyone would fly in packs (even more than now! :eek: ) for fear of running into an enemy pack. Taking it out by destroying the dar at the base makes sense. I think destroying HQ should render bar dar useless (representing the destruction of the communications center which would collect, analyze, and distribute information based on reports) but leave dot dar intact since it is tied to a specific base.
Well, enough typing. Guess thats my 22 cents worth!
HaMmeR
www.netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org)
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"At 240 mph, 6 miles is covered in 1.5 minutes. At 360, 45 seconds. Time to react to the raid? I doubt it. "
Show me a non-jet bomber or fighter loaded with ordenance that can climb from 200 ft to 7k AT 240mph or 360mph in a mere 6 miles.
NOE planes would fly to about 6 or 8 miles from target and climb hard at 140 or 150 mph until they reach a minimum safe alt from ack (7k?), then level off again and pick up speed. Id say you'd have an easy 4 to 5 minutes of climb before you get to alt.
And since the moment the planes leave 500ft the bar dar pops up, it would still be a dead giveaway that a NOE raid is about to hit that field. Only difference is that the defenders wont have such a HUGE advantage over the attackers (since they didnt see the huge bar dar coming in at them from the field the raid took off).
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Originally posted by Tac
Show me a non-jet bomber or fighter loaded with ordenance that can climb from 200 ft to 7k AT 240mph or 360mph in a mere 6 miles.
NOE planes would fly to about 6 or 8 miles from target and climb hard at 140 or 150 mph until they reach a minimum safe alt from ack (7k?), then level off again and pick up speed. Id say you'd have an easy 4 to 5 minutes of climb before you get to alt.
Tac, why would I take bombers in when I can destroy an airfield's city or even HQ with P-47's? No need to climb as they can strafe and rocket the ack more effectively down low and then climb up to drop some bombs on the buildings.
If I did take bombers, why on earth would I feel I have to climb 7k before I drop? I've never felt the need to avoid ack when in a B-26 or B-17. I might take some hits, but rarely enough to disable me before I drop. 1 - 2k AGL is fine, especially with a multi-ship raid.
I personally think the ability to get to any target on the map undetected just because I fly low is (I hate to use this word) unrealistic. While we have many game concessions, I don't think NOE invisibility all over the map should be one of them. NOE raids happened, yes. Mostly in the area of the front lines and mostly in areas which were occupied. These would work in the scenario I described. You are advocating the ability to get to Berlin, Schweinfurt, or Munich by flying low.
Like I said above, I agree that some change would be a good thing, but a good thing can be taken too far. Balance is the key.
As always, of course, just my humble opinion!
HaMmeR
www.netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org)
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A heavy jug going below 500ft is dead if it meets ack at that alt. If you pull up to get alt you will be visible in bar dar, not to mention that even if you are below 500ft, the DOT dar will show you if you are 6 miles away from the field.
Plus you'd have to make damn sure that your jugs are able to wipe out all fh's, vh and all ack in 1 or 2 passes and suffer fewer than 1 or 2 planes in your raid getting shot down. Because if you dont, the field will up defense, flaks, tbms, n1ks, spits and la7's. Plus you have to level town as well.
Not to mention that taking a field behind enemy lines is useless if you completely pork it.
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Im for getting rid of bar dar alltogether. Just use dot dar, I dont think anyone would have any problem finding the furballs with dot dar. I never know gv's are at my field till I go over there in a plane and see them anyway(or theyre shooting at me). As things stand now there is ABSOLUTELY no element of surprise in AH. and I think its a shame. It would be more exciting.
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Originally posted by Tac
Plus you'd have to make damn sure that your jugs are able to wipe out all fh's, vh and all ack in 1 or 2 passes and suffer fewer than 1 or 2 planes in your raid getting shot down. Because if you dont, the field will up defense, flaks, tbms, n1ks, spits and la7's. Plus you have to level town as well.
Too complicated. Bring in six Jugs with rockets and bombs. Kill town acks and town. Make sure you've timed things so the goon arrives not long after the town buildings are down.
You'll show up on radar one minute out , but it'll take at least a minute for defenders to show up at the town, assuming they launch as soon as you pop up on the scope. Most likely, I'd estimate you've got five minutes, probably more unless lots of people auger IMMEDIATELY and launch.
The only real danger is the ack, I think.
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duh. Double post.
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Pbi, my squaddies and I usually try to sneak fields, and let me tell ya, what you just said is the only way we have a chance.
Problem is, in the GREAT majority of times, the very instance our bar dar leaves the "big furball bar dar" and enter an empty sector, cons up almost immediately from the field in that sector.
In an arena with 120+ players per side, the chances of 1 person seeing that bar dar , hopping to that field and using external views or just upping a spit or la7 or n1k or 109 just to check it out, seeing the NOE plane's dots approaching the field and then screaming out your location or doing a kamikaze attack at the goon... lets say that out of 10 NOE raids we've tried, 8 of them end up like this. Thanks to the idiotic bar dar.
So you get an organized strike of 5 people or more completely fuked up just because of one person...and the bar dar that told him we were coming from 25 miles out.
Then you mention the ack. Yes, acks are a serious threat to NOE planes. They shoot through hilltops and through hangars with incredible accuracy. Then you have to add to the equation the resupply. Many times we flatten a town, the goon lands or drops.. and a convoy of nearly invisible trucks chuggin' at 140mph arrive to the airfield and up the entire town again. Or worse, a train with more ack flies near and whacks the goon or troops (A33 in Baltic anyone? hehe).
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Originally posted by Tac
A heavy jug going below 500ft is dead if it meets ack at that alt. If you pull up to get alt you will be visible in bar dar, not to mention that even if you are below 500ft, the DOT dar will show you if you are 6 miles away from the field.
Plus you'd have to make damn sure that your jugs are able to wipe out all fh's, vh and all ack in 1 or 2 passes and suffer fewer than 1 or 2 planes in your raid getting shot down. Because if you dont, the field will up defense, flaks, tbms, n1ks, spits and la7's. Plus you have to level town as well.
Not to mention that taking a field behind enemy lines is useless if you completely pork it.
Let me clarify that I think the only place your idea should be modified is over the area of the "home country". History shows that all sides employed an effective form of ground-based observers who complimented radar data. To me, it just makes sense to emulate this in the game.
In your scenario, you need enough planes to kill the airfield and the town. Not true. I've participated in many a raid where, with 4 or 5 niks and a goon, we've wiped out the town and captured the field without hitting anything at the field. We come in low, strafe the 4 acks, bomb/strafe the buildings, and bingo, town is captured. Granted, it hasn't been the field where the fighting was taking place, but it is always during the heavily populated mid-evening EST, with bar-dar and dot-dar, and we still are usually able to capture before a defence is mounted. It may only work once or twice an evening before the bad guys are wise to it, but it does work.
Now imagine trying to figure out where the next strike will be if there is no indication at all. Most people are not going to auger to rush to the defence of a field that is, for all practical purposes, lost.
And again, my biggest objection is you could fly all over the map, including all the way to "Berlin" (HQ), before you were detected by anyone. This may be realistic over friendly or "occupied" territory (as long as you stay away from enemy bases, depots, etc), but certainly not over the enemy's home country.
As always, just my opinion!
HaMmeR
www.netAces.org (http://www.netaces.org)