Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on September 30, 2008, 05:13:33 PM
-
I'm looking for something affordable in the line of CAD software. I do not expect to be doing a lot of CAD work, but I want to control my own stuff. I'm working on a project that will require some fairly serious work (I'm designing some new transmission parts). I may do some other stuff later. I need to be able to pass my drawings along to a CNC machining company, and possibly a couple of other places. Any suggestions?
-
What do you mean by affordable.
-
I just can't spend a thousand bucks now. What price ranges would you suggest I consider?
-
In world of CAD affordable start at $4-5k unless you're looking for 2d drafting apps...
-
In world of CAD affordable start at $4-5k unless you're looking for 2d drafting apps...
It's really that high huh? I will have to do some serious looking, and may just do it the old fashioned way, by hand with paper and pencil. Those old drafting classes might just pay off.
-
You can try this site, it seems to have some free CAD software.
http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cad.htm (http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cad.htm)
-
You dont want to go the cheap path. I have been doing CAD work for a long long time and cheap is never cheap in the long run. I lean toward Autodesk (Inventor) but these days Solidworks is catching on also. Ask your CNC people what they suggest.
-
You dont want to go the cheap path. I have been doing CAD work for a long long time and cheap is never cheap in the long run. I lean toward Autodesk (Inventor) but these days Solidworks is catching on also. Ask your CNC people what they suggest.
Oh, I'm not interested in CHEAP, just affordable. I do not need the ultimate software, with every bell and whistle, for someone who does tons of work with it. I need to do a 1/2 dozen or so pieces that are not horribly complex, at least thats the first project, and there may not be another. A shaft, two drums, a planetary carrier, and two hubs. None are complete "from scratch" pieces, but rather adaptations.
-
I see things from a ROI perspective and I believe your best solution would be to paper draft first and then pay a draftsman to CAD the work. Most good draftsmen will charge between three and four-hundred an hour when moonlighting so having everything calculated ahead of time is in your best interest. Otherwise the cost is going to climb way above your typical transmission (unless you are talking about racing or heavy transport requirements).
I would charge you the price of the software just to get involved and that would only cover up to six hours drafting time (so that leaves me out). Also you should be advised ahead of time it takes a minimum of three months of full-day drafting just to get a rudimentary understanding of CAD and at the level of mechanical proficiency to develop transmission parts a year as an intern would barely get you prepared (I dont care if you HAVE drafted on paper previously).
Do yourself a favor and talk to the CNC guys. They usually know a good draftsman in the area.
-
What about SolidWorks? I'm not sure about the cost....
-
This is free and it supposedly supports the major formats.
http://brlcad.org/d/about
The site says it was developed over 20 years for military use and is released under various open source licenses.
-
What to the guys who will be doing the machining say?
(Sorry if I'm putting my foot in my mouth here. Just an ongoing allergic reaction to a bad experience I once had.)
-
What to the guys who will be doing the machining say?
(Sorry if I'm putting my foot in my mouth here. Just an ongoing allergic reaction to a bad experience I once had.)
Good point... If it won't export in a usable (reliable and accurate) format, then it is a waste of time no matter what it costs.
-
This is free and it supposedly supports the major formats.
http://brlcad.org/d/about
The site says it was developed over 20 years for military use and is released under various open source licenses.
The problem is in converting to CNC formats the layering system expected will require the CAD operator is expert in both versions. I have done this for a living for a very very long time and he is better off talking to the CNC guys just like I and scherf suggested.
-
Cap unfortunately there is no affordable (under $1,000)CAD program that is going to do what you want.
I have been looking into this for more than a year now for my company. There are many programs that don't cost a lot that you can do drawings on but they will not work for the CNC machines, and if they don't import to the NC machines they're pretty much useless. I still do the drawings on velum by hand. At some point it is going to get very difficult to manufacture without CAD. More and more of our vendors are now asking for CAD drawings.
Solidworks has been after me to purchase their program and even recently offered a low interest loan for the purchase. I'm still hesitant to invest that kind of money onto a program that I will just barely use. You also have to take into account the capability of the computers you're going to be running the program on.
As has been stated in this thread, do talk to your vendors to see what program they prefer. In the long run it will make it easier. Or they might now someone willing to do the drawings for you at a reasonable cost.
-
Sik1 in your case I think a subscription would be in order. Have you talked to a reseller at all?
-
hey, try ebay... seriously, i got an older version of coldfusion server for my server - which suited my needs... it is something like 1200 bucks but i bought old version off someone that did recent upgrade for under 200 bucks... completely legit license
-
There are programs available which can take DXF format (most 3D drawing programs will export DXF files) and output G code for CNC. The trick is the DXF has to be saved with face information and not as lines (AutoCAD defaults to saving line information only). I have used other generic 3D drawing programs (Sketchup, Maya...), then ran it through 3DWin5 as it will convert the format to the proper DXF format, then used MeshCAM to generate the base G-Code.
MeshCAM is not perfect, but it can generate some pretty complex paths. It really depends on how clean the drawing is. It will only generate G code for up to 4 axis (X, Y, Z, and X or Y rotate), so it may not work for you.
I have a small CNC rig so I can test the code if I need to fire it off to a larger shop or cut it myself. If I need 6 axis paths, I will generate the G code from programs I write for the job.
I would love to be able to afford SolidWorks. I just cannot justify the cost for the hobby level work I do.
-
I use Rhino3D.
A very well respected Aeronautical engineer friend put me on to it.
He does all his stuff in Rhino. http://www.oriontechnologies.net/
It's like a breath of fresh air if you've been using AutoCAD.
check it out here=>http://www.rhino3d.com/
-
http://www.a9tech.com/
I tried it out, seems to work fine.
Vectorworks by MiniCAD used to be an affordable pro alternative to AutoCAD.
I used to use Rhino way back in the beta days, great nurbs modeller.
Currently I use AutoCAD Civil 3D 2009, which is a very powerful terrain modeller, and also runs as AutoCAD 2009 standalone. Very powerful and intuitive.
-
My Wife uses AutoCAD everyday. There is nothing intuitive about that software, from a 3D drawing perspective. AutoDesk has thier own unique way of doing things that is not like any other 3D drawing program on the planet. It is a very powerful package, but it is not easy to learn.
My hat is off to you if you think it is easy or intuitive. I have worked with dozens of 3D drawing programs and I would rate AutoCAD as the most difficult to learn to use for 3D work.
-
I've never used it, but couldn't the free program Blender be used to create the actual piece instead of using paper? Once it's completed you could then take screen shots, and add your measurements in a legend on the side.
or
From reading skuzzy's post i got an idea.
I googled (convert g code to dxf.) and found this open source program.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8814
I have no experience with this stuff, so i don't know if it helps or not.
-
It's really that high huh? I will have to do some serious looking, and may just do it the old fashioned way, by hand with paper and pencil. Those old drafting classes might just pay off.
Solidworks Educators edition is precisely what you're looking for. It's under $200. It'll let you draft whatever you want and spit it out ready for a CnC mill.
The downside is you lose most of the features that makes SolidWorks amazing, like materials analysis, virtual wind tunnel, etc.
I had drafting, then pre-engineering & 3d autocad in highschool. Same lessons still apply.
edit: There's also a lot of tutorials on YouTube for almost any software you end up going with. Autodesk, SolidWorks, etc, etc.
-
Thanks for the help guys, it is greatly appreciated.
I should be able to get away fine without materials analysis, since there are already industry standard materials for the parts I'm making, the drums are 7075-T6 aluminum, the hubs are 8620 steel, and the shafts are 4340 torsional steel. The valvebody I'm making will be 356-T6, hard anodized to prevent the steel valve from wearing on it.
I will talk to the CNC shop that will do some of the work, we're going to do a study so we can cost the project and figure out if we can do it with a decent profit margin. Not sure who we'll get to make the shaft, we MAY be able to buy one that already exists, since we're only changing the drum that shaft fits, not the location of the drum, and we can make the drum accept the shaft.
The one part is pretty complex, and will be fairly difficult to make work. I'm going to have to make the carrier out of aluminum if at all possible to get the weight down. But I will have to have a steel ring gear on the ID in the front, and it'll have to work with a splined steel shaft that locks into it in the back.
-
Not sure who we'll get to make the shaft, we MAY be able to buy one that already exists, since we're only changing the drum that shaft fits, not the location of the drum, and we can make the drum accept the shaft.
Now I don't know if the educators edition comes with it, but SolidWorks has a pretty damn big parts catalog built into it. Drag and drop it onto the assembly, and it's ready to go. Chains, gears, shafts, electrical components, hydraulics, & more.
-
You can find used 2 to 3 year old versions of AutoCad online. Go to the makers BBS. Some as cheap as $500.00 and they are capable of 3D if needed. The maker of AutoCad is Autodesk.
When sending drawings to a machinist it is usually better to save with a DXF extension. Many companies still run software that will only convert that extension to G code for thier machines. We have the ability to convert DXF and DWG.
-
My Wife uses AutoCAD everyday. There is nothing intuitive about that software, from a 3D drawing perspective. AutoDesk has thier own unique way of doing things that is not like any other 3D drawing program on the planet. It is a very powerful package, but it is not easy to learn.
My hat is off to you if you think it is easy or intuitive. I have worked with dozens of 3D drawing programs and I would rate AutoCAD as the most difficult to learn to use for 3D work.
Autocad is NOT a 3D program(even if there are some features). Try Autodesk Inventor.
It depends on what do you need, for mechanical design there is Inventor (suite, professional etc), for architects there are Revit and Architecture (these two will be soon one product) and many many more different solutions. One of my fellow coworker just designed himself a house with a Revit and before that he had never even touch that program. You learn basics very fast.
btw, Im reseller for all these. Unfortunately I cant sell them for you guys. :)
-
You are right. I worded that poorly. I have been using Autodesk products since the late 1980's. The things that stand out in my mind are, very powerful software with a very long learning curve and the least intuitive of all design software I have ever used.
My Wife has been using the architect version for the last 14 years and she still gets very frustrated with how clumsy some things are to do, while other things are very easy.
Shuffler, you have to be careful with DXF files, as many programs will only export lines to DXF and not the poly/face information. Basically, with line only information, it is a 2D drawing and that is how all 3D programs will treat it. You probably are aware of that, but others may not be.
EDIT: Mip, I would not call AutoDesk Inventor a low cost solution. I think it fits in the "big ouch" cost solution category. :)
-
I'm refering to the terrain modeling and civil (roads, subdivions, etc.) 3d design as intuitive.
Removes alot of the time consuming drafting out of a project, such as labelling, and scaling text.
-
True Skuzzy...
We convert the DXF to G Code then fill in the tooling and types of passes using software that we bought with the machines. I have a CNC Fryer MB-16 Mill and a Trumpf 5040 6kw Laser with a 6' x 12' bed. The laser is 2D except when using the Rotolas which allows us to cut pipe and round, square, and oval tube. The laser also has a Liftmaster so it can run production lights out.
No one has mentioned Pro-E.... possible bvecause of pricing. Foot in the door will be about $13000.00. It is very nice and 3D.
-
EDIT: Mip, I would not call AutoDesk Inventor a low cost solution. I think it fits in the "big ouch" cost solution category. :)
Well it depends on... If you are not used to handle big money, it may feel expensive. :D (sorry, had to say it. Old joke in our company, someone said it once to a customer with bad results. ) ;)
-
I work for a game company Mip. My idea of big money is slapping a texture and material, resembling gold, on a 20 foot long rectangular primitive scaled to fit on your screen. :)
Like I said, I have used AutoDesk products since the late 80's. I have a good solid idea of what it costs to get into that licensing.
-
I think both, AutoCAD and SolidWorks are considered low cost level, NX would be mid-range, tops would be the likes of Pro/E and Catia.
For a grand, there isn't much out there, Rhino is maybe an exception.
-
I am in complete agreement with themaj on Civil 3D being intuitive but only to an AutoCAD user experienced in civil design or land surveying. The fastest CAD system to learn is unfortunately TrueSpace which is made by Caligari and they just made the latest version free for download but its not anywhere near as accurate as AutoCAD and it depends on what you want to do with it I guess (I would not use it to design mechanical devices). Inventor is by far my favorite program but its having a hard time getting a large share of the mechanical market. Solidworks is quickly growing into THE program to use. Rhino is absolutely wonderful and if you are interested you should download the evaluation copy and play with it.
-
I'd second/third what's been said about Rhino - it's wonderfully easy to learn.
(Not that I ever had to produce any professional output with it....)
-
I work for a game company Mip. My idea of big money is slapping a texture and material, resembling gold, on a 20 foot long rectangular primitive scaled to fit on your screen. :)
This year's con mission is a 20 ft flying twinkee?
-
What I know about CAD you could balance in the head of a pin so..
But I came across this.
Dont know if this is helpful at all
Or if its powerful enough for you. But for the price...
Open Office has a CAD extention
http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/cadooo
(http://gerard.deneux.free.fr/images/interface.png)
-
It has been a little over 5 years since I had to contend with doing drawings and submit them for cnc machines. I used to work for a company that built industrial refrigeration and air conditioning equipment (the very large, bigger than most people's houses are). When working there I bought a TurboCAD reasonable inexpensive. It worked very well, easy to learn, and converted files to DXF and compatible with the software used at the factory as well.
I used to have parts made at work all the time for projects at home.
link to their website (http://www.turbocad.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=555&tabid=555&mid=1889)
-
I've been doing CNC work since I was 18 (Now 47) (holy crap that 29 years) and have been in business for myself for 13 years now doing Wire EDM work. I've used just about every CAD package on the Planet.
SolidWorks is hands down the most powerful and intuitive. AutoCad (Autodesk) is the mainstream and probably the hardest to learn (as many of you already said). But for what your trying to do there are many low end packages out there that would do the job. Under 1K is gonna be tough to find though. I'd have to agree with the others, get someone to do the design work for you. I think the estimate of 300-400 and hour is a bit high for Cad work, at least in my area. Also DFX is a 2d file exchange. Use IGES for 3d translations, many today also support Step Files which will work fine. Just my 2 cents. :aok
-
I've been doing CNC work since I was 18 (Now 47) (holy crap that 29 years) and have been in business for myself for 13 years now doing Wire EDM work. I've used just about every CAD package on the Planet.
SolidWorks is hands down the most powerful and intuitive. AutoCad (Autodesk) is the mainstream and probably the hardest to learn (as many of you already said). But for what your trying to do there are many low end packages out there that would do the job. Under 1K is gonna be tough to find though. I'd have to agree with the others, get someone to do the design work for you. I think the estimate of 300-400 and hour is a bit high for Cad work, at least in my area. Also DFX is a 2d file exchange. Use IGES for 3d translations, many today also support Step Files which will work fine. Just my 2 cents. :aok
I'd really prefer to control all of the design aspect myself, especially since I'd like to protect my concept carefully. MOST of what I'm doing will be modifying existing parts, adapting them from one unit to another. The other thing about getting my own software is that instead of paying someone else to do a job I should do myself, and having only the one job for my money, I'd have the software to do other projects. Regardless of whether or not the current project is successful, I'm sure I'll have other projects I'll want to tackle later.
-
Savage,
I just noticed your from Murfreesboro. Many moons ago (Late 80's) I worked for McMinnville Tool and Die and lived on 70S just west of the small airport there. Probably about 30 minutes from you. :aok
-
Savage,
I just noticed your from Murfreesboro. Many moons ago (Late 80's) I worked for McMinnville Tool and Die and lived on 70S just west of the small airport there. Probably about 30 minutes from you. :aok
LOL. I have a customer who has a crew chief who works there. I've been here since 1973. I was away for a couple of years helping my parents, but always was around here even then. Still a nice place, but boy has it grown. You wouldn't recognize it.