Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Downtown on January 21, 2000, 10:26:00 AM
-
Well,
The other night (I'm a ROOK BTW) a fellow rook got his name in the buffer a few times.
I think on one sortie he got 38 and on the next 14.
He was not flying a B-26, he parked it near the spawning point of a field in contention, and toasted a few as they spawned.
Now, normally I would have made much noise and beratement of this individual for such activity, but I didn't.
I didn't because I watched a pony spawn from that field a few minutes before, and kill two Paratroopers dropped by a C-47. Killing those two Paras kept us from capturing that field.
What I would like to see is!!!
1. Allow all buff guns to be on, all times. If someone wants to park a B-17 on a runway and use it as an Ack Platform, SO BE IT. No Gear Up and No Weight on Wheels, let them sit in their plane on the ground, and shoot from the top turret and sides and nose and tail.
2. Make it so that If I drop a bomb from alt, it will kill any planes I hit.
3. Make it so if I bomb all the ammo bunkers at a field new spawning planes at that field don't get ammo, until that team flies in a C-47 and lands at that field to deliver Ammo/Fuel/Parts/Troops/Etc.. Etc.. or the Ammo Bunkers Rebuild.
4. Make it so that if I bomb the fuel at a particular Airfield, and planes spawning on the runway at a particular field, do so with no fuel, until a C-47 arrives at that field delivering Fuel/Ammo/Parts/Troops/Etc... Etc... or that Fuel Bunkers Rebuild.
5. Make it so that If I bomb all the System Targets at a field (Hangar/Tower/Barraks) Then NO PLANES CAN SPAWN AT A FIELD. SOmeone who clicks Fly or types .Fly will just be a Pilot who is Planeless at the spawning point.
What I am saying here is.
If you are at a Airfield under attack, and a buff comes over and takes out the ack, you will be spawning at a vultch fest. If you choose to spawn a B-17 and use it as Ack, you can do so. Then the NME Bomber, takes out the AMmo Bunkers, the next time you spawn that B-17 and move to a gun position, and squeeze the trigger nothing happens cause that field is out of ammo. Meanwhile the B-17 bombs the Fuel BUnkers, and the next time you spawn in that B-17 you can't even start the engines cause there is no fuel at that airfield. So you sit at the spawning point of the runway, in a B-17 with no ammo and no fuel.
Now, you have a choice, after your unarmed, imobile bombers is vultched, spawn from another field, and fly a C-47 to the field in contention, and deliver fuel, say a C-47 can Carry 5000 Gallons of AV Fuel, 50,000 Rounds Of Various Amuniton, and 5 paras.
Your feild can't rebuild without the barracks cause there are no troops to do the rebuilding.
So, flying in 10 C-47 from another field to the field in Contention will cause a complete restoration of that field facilities.
THe Attackers should only need to drop or deliver 10 paras in 1 C-47 to capture a field.
Of course all these other features (Concerning your ability to get a fully loaded C-47 to a field in contention should depend on the overall health of your nation. If your AMmo Factory/COmplex has been bombed out, then you can only fly 10,000 rnds from another field to the field in contention.)
Anyhow, what this does is add another strategic element to field capture, disabling the STRATEGIC TARGETS at a field in contention will have an Positive effect in making the field more capturable, and limit the defenders rescources. I personally would BOmb the ACK/AMMO/FUEL, and then let them spawn unarmed/unfueld aircraft all day.
Leave them sitting at the spawning point, helpless as I land my C-47 and unload my Paras Right by the map room. If they want to try and stop me, they have to take off from a field with fuel and ammo, and intercept me, or survive the flight to the field in contention, and strafe my Paras/C-47 before I fully unload it.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
-
I like your ideas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Downtown you can already drop eggs on the spawn point and get kills. I did the a day or 2 after the 26 was added. We had hit bish HQ (they were in the south) and had a few eggs left over so we went to f1. I was hitting the south fuel and saw a large formation of 26s gathering on the runway, so instead of dropping all me eggs on fuel I planted me last one on the runway. A few minutes later 4 kills scrolled up the buffer as the egg hit and took 4 of them out =)
-
I tip my hat to probably the best strat
idea for the sim as it is evolving.
It also sets the stage for development of ground vehicles.
Dakota
-
The question is what do the HTC Guys think of this.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
-
1. Allow all buff guns to be on, all times. If someone wants to park a B-17 on a runway and use it as an Ack Platform, SO BE IT. No Gear Up and No Weight on Wheels, let them sit in their plane on the ground, and shoot from the top turret and sides and nose and tail.
Had that already.
We turned the gunners off because they can kill troops and in effect it makes a non killable ack station because you can pop back 2 secs after death.
2. Make it so that If I drop a bomb from alt, it will kill any planes I hit.
They all ready do.
3. Make it so if I bomb all the ammo bunkers at a field new spawning planes at that field don't get ammo, until that team flies in a C-47 and lands at that field to deliver Ammo/Fuel/Parts/Troops/Etc.. Etc.. or the Ammo Bunkers Rebuild.
Realy hate this idea.
The fact is you have effectivly closed the field when this happens. From previous history no one once to fly cargo on a regular bassis.
4. Make it so that if I bomb the fuel at a particular Airfield, and planes spawning on the runway at a particular field, do so with no fuel, until a C-47 arrives at that field delivering Fuel/Ammo/Parts/Troops/Etc... Etc... or that Fuel Bunkers Rebuild.
We have a form of this by limiting fuel. But there again no fuel would close the field. And again forcing cargo flights is a realy bad idea.
5. Make it so that If I bomb all the System Targets at a field (Hangar/Tower/Barraks) Then NO PLANES CAN SPAWN AT A FIELD. SOmeone who clicks Fly or types .Fly will just be a Pilot who is Planeless at the spawning point.
Even under your system what good would this do? All 1 person would have to do is bomb the fuel only or ammo only and the field is closed.
Most of this can be summed up with 2 ideas.
First is ask yourself if you want to be flying cargo. The strat always sound cool until you ask ,is flying cargo somthing you yourself would enjoy doing on a regular basis?
2nd is closing fields somthing you wish to have happen.
Right now when one country is trying hard to capture a field and another defending it some great fights evolve. Might not be totaly real to life, but when the field is succesfuly captured or defended it was a team effort that made it happen.
And also ask yourself are those field capturing fights fun ,because your ideas would elimitate them?
And downtown look at your post once , you are viewing things from a I want to be able to kill this, But not saying I want to fly cargo in.
BTW on the ablity to close fields, we are considering some method where the fields could be close for a very short time ,2-3 min range.
Just to open a window for a c47 to get in.
HiTech
-
HiTech, First let me thank you for this great sim you folks are putting together. And for allowing me to play here. This post is not meant as a flame butt more of just me trying to understand how this arena play is supposed to work.
Now about the strat ideas. You ask if we would be willing to fly C-47s to supply bases. I would, i do in AWIII. You ask if the fights are fun at a base being taken over, well for some they are butt i don't think alot of people like getting vulched. Ya i know take off from a different field, well the base capture would go on unopposed then. Where's the fun in that? I know some people do like that, butt i doubt it's any kind of majority. Having planes respawning after a 2 sec. death is not very realistic (butt then this isn't anything like RL). I mean the Japanese didn't worry too much about respawning planes or unlimited pile-its. If instead of not allowing ammo when bunkers are down just make it a reduced load out available. Same for fuel (which you already do). There have been numerous posts along these lines. Is there somewhere i can read what is to be expected by way of strat? It would be nice to take a poll and ask every one these questions you ask Downtown about cargo and closing fields. I like em both. Maybe i'm just too used to the way Flight sim AW does things. Butt i believe there is more to a flight sim than furballs over capped bases. Maybe when we get some ground vehicles things will change. Well there's my penny on the subject.
------------------
KJB
aka kjb ;)
-
HiTech you have it set to reduce fuel when damaged why not reduce ammo leathality when ammo gets hit. How hard would it be to add drone c47 that resupply bases you could use them to resupply the bases that heavy attacks are launched from and the base being attacked can send sotries out to shoot them down, which if not resupplied the bases would loose some leathality due to lack of supplies kind of real life thing here. This would effect both the attackers and those being attacked.
------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
-
BTW on the ablity to close fields, we are considering some method where the fields could be close for a very short time ,2-3 min range.
Just to open a window for a c47 to get in.
This is worth a try!
-
Resupply at base: Eisenbahnnetz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Put this strat in and I'm signing up for sure.
No need to fly supplies in if we have a railway network supplying all the bases.
No need to fly C47 supply drops if we have rail doin that job for us, and then truck convoys. AI will be acceptable for these roles...I Allow it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
HT...There are many of us out there tired of the same old, same old, of strictly A/A combat. I am a LOUSY fighter pilot, but would love to be in on G/A missions.
Thoughts from a Dweeb...Ping
-
I like Indian's idea. Why not have a small formation of c47's automatically take off from the factory complexes that continuously supply foward bases. Destroying these could be set up kind of like bombing the ammo/fuel bunkers at a base. We could also have a set of roads/rail lines that do the same thing for rear/major bases. You could also make it an option to fly a c47 with supplies yourself to help rebuild time at a base. I think this would be a lot of fun for those of us who fly c47's, and also for the fighter pilots that want to bomb ground targets etc. IMO it could be used as a semi-realistic stat element.
I must say I really like AH, but some strategy elements can only add to this very fine game.
What do you think?
-
HiTech if the bombers can't launch if all ammo bunkers are destroyed, then the "unkillable ack" problem goes away. It falls into the same catagory of someone sitting on the runway and constantly dropping drunks from a gooney bird to prevent capture (which can still happen btw if barracks aren't killed and the vulch isn't tight enough). I've been told plenty of times that ordinence was disabled at a field =)
-
What Downtown is requesting is the ability to close a field.
Right now, one guy in a buff flying at an altitude that makes him almost unreachable could hit all those targets in a few passes. Using the amazingly accurate bombsight, it's not that hard to get a "shack." If we implement Downtown's requests, this would eliminate all opposition at that field and capture would be relatively easy once the cap has taken care of any residual defending fighters.
The resupply by C-47 idea is highly unlikely. A C-47 is an easy target as we all realize. The odds of getting a "resupply" -47 into even a lightly capped "closed" field are essentially nil.
So, if we are going to allow closing of fields (and that's exactly what these suggestions would accomplish) then we are going to have to do some other things to playbalance.
The Buff bombsights are going to have to be degraded significantly and slanted more towards RL.
Solo buffs at 30K would probably have to be countered by more realistic performance of both the buffs and the fighters at that altitude. No more 90 degree bank turns in level flight in a B-17, guys. Fighters will easily and quickly climb above Buffs when starting co-alt at 25K.
Perhaps countries would have to move farther apart with a larger "no man's land" so that sneaking in a few troop-laden -47's becomes tougher. You would then have to fly in more troops to that field barracks before you could continue the conquest.
Playbalance is a delicate thing. Given the maps, bombsights and flight models we now have changing to a total "field closure" model would be a MAJOR change in playbalance.
It could be done but I'm wagering that in short order we'd be screaming for other changes.
Personally, I'd rather see work done on true STRATEGIC aspects before we go fooling with the tactical field capture procedure.
No, it presently isn't perfect in the micro view but it's working and requires teamwork, timing and a bit of luck to accomplish. Sounds pretty realistic in the macro view doesn't it?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-23-2000).]
-
Im realy curious TOAD and this isn't a flame in the least. But I keep hereing people say they want STRAT. Now you are saying REAL STRAT. Can a few of you give me your deffinition of strat? Please don't include a wish list with it, just an overall definition or examples.
HiTech
-
HT,
Strat, in my view, would be features that affect the battle from further up the chain than items at the the tactical level.
To me,field capture is a tactical maneuver that takes place on the front line. Knocking out the ack is a tactical move.
OTOH, strat items would degrade the enemies ability to wage the war at a higher level. Knocking out the "ack factory" would be an example of Strat.
(If memory serves, the post-WW2 bombing survey eventually decided that the most effective phase of the bombing campaign was the last phase against transportation assets. Thus, transportation may have been the most important "strat" target.)
Now I realize we already have both tactical and strategic aspects in this game.
The tactical is fairly well represented and includes the furballing and territorial capture that is a staple of this type of game no matter which brand/ACM server you fly on the most.
I'm just saying I'd like to see a bit more of the strategic aspect implemented. Those "other games" haven't really worked on that aspect and AH could trump them.
It might require larger game maps and other changes, such as altering rebuild times on factories or facilities. It would probably require many additions/changes.
HT, don't take this as criticism. I'd just like to see AH offer more than the others. I think deeper strategic considerations would offer more challenges to the buff guys and complicate country defense for the fighter guys. I also think it would necessitate greater cooperation between a country's players, a good thing IMHO. I'd love to see 4-6 plane buff formations driving deep into enemy territory and see 12 plane fighter groups rise to defend the homeland <G>.
OTOH, there is also the risk that if Strat is TOO IMPORTANT it could drive guys away. If you can knock out too much of a country's infrastructure too easily, people might just log.
As I mentioned, though, I believe playbalance is a delicate thing. I think you've done pretty well so far and I certainly don't envy your job <G>.
I agree with what you've said in this thread concerning tactical level field capture.
I guess I'm hoping we'll get some of the stuff that others have mentioned, like more and varied factories, alterable rebuild times (damage based), truck and train supply convoys, bridges to knock out and the like. There have been a lot of suggestions spit out in several threads that seem to be ideas worth trying to make this game a bit "deeper."
The trick will be making such targets worthwhile and meaningful to the overall war effort while not making them SO important that playbalance suffers. It still needs to remain a game that you can log into and get into some exciting action in 30 minutes or so; not everyone has a few hours a night to spend executing a strategic campaign.
Alternatively, perhaps another tactical level, such as slowly advancing, computer operated infantry assets that take ground unless air assets attack/rout it would help differentiate AH from its competitors.
Bottom line, Strat to me would be features that allow a country to degrade another country's overall ability to wage war. Transportation, manufacturing, raw materials, etc., would be Strat targets. I'd simply like to see more of such targets, with more varied results on the war effort than what we have now.
Didn't say it would be easy, and I'm prepared to wait <G>. You guys are doing pretty well, I think.
Best Regards,
Toad
-
I think Toad, has done very well with his description.
Right now, except for a very few exceptions, our "STRAT" revolves exclusively along the tactical lines, ie field capture.
The most we can do on a strategic basis currently is hurt the enemies ability to conduct "offensive" warfare. We can reduce his ability to load full fuel and drop tanks, but he still has fuel for takeoff. We can hit their ammo bunkers, to remove bombs and rockets, but they can still load MG and Cannon ammo for field defense. I can go on, but you get my point.
The current strat system centers around the airfield capture and disabling the enemies ability to attack. If on the offensive, you take out the ack and the tower. And if on the defensive, you take out the enemies fuel tanks. Thats the sum of our current Strat.
And since usually if you are on the defensive you have few pilots/resources to committ to "spoiling attacks". It is rarely used.
This combined with the enemies ability to infinitely respawn, with a full functional aircraft effectively removes any real importance of our STRAT. It has little meaning and very little impact on current gameplay.
People just don't use it. This is because with the exception of ack and the tower/HQ, it has very little effect on gameplay, and they regard it as not worth their time and effort.
The only pure strategic target that is currently worthwhile is to hit the enemies HQ, and destroy their radar coverage. And in my opinon even this is flawed, since it is a "all or nothing" proposition. It would be nice to have several steps of radar and counter degradation.
We need to be able to effect the enemies offensive, defensive and overall industrial capabilities as well, without concentrating all our efforts around a few obvious airfields and their targets.
Give us factories to hit that will reduce the number or percentage of "favorite" aircraft, or even the ability to procure these aircraft at all. Allow us to degrade the quality of the maintenance (ie toughness), or completely remove the amount of fuel or ammo that they can carry down to a bare minimum like 25% of max(including MG and cannons).
It seems to me that their needs to be a more evident connection between our different levels of strategic targets.
Cities and HQ's seem to be about right. But the connection between our factories and all phases of air operations seems rather tenuous.
It would be nice to see a "transportation" network that connects the factories to our bases. Whether it be roads, rails, canals, or aircraft. This way you could hit the enemies resupply, and effect if the appropriate structures resupply or respawn at an airfield.
Then airfields structures could then be used to represent the storage capacity of strategic supplies at the base, independently of the actual ammount of the supplies present.
If the appropriate factory is damaged, it sends out its resupply vehicles on a longer schedule, and if destroyed, doesn't resupply until it is rebuilt according to the appropriate state of the enemy's City.
So basically, you may have a full fuel tank farm at an airfield, but the enemy has been pummeling the refinery and the resupply trains, so you have very little fuel at the field.
Being able to capture factories, chunks of tranportation networks, and districts (represented by chunks of territory) would also be nice.
I guess what we mean by "REAL STRAT" is to spread out the fight, and to be able to significantly effect the enemies ability to wage war (offensive and defensive), without just concentrating on an airfield.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
Dicta Verm: "Never give the suckers an even break!" or translated "Never engage without an advantage"
-
Well when ground vehicles will be implented, why not have AI cargo trucks do the hauling? Than we would just have to escort convoys of trucks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
HT, part of my post has to do with the complaints about vultching.
People will respawn, and respawn, and respawn at a field, and complain vehemently about getting vultched. The incident where a rook parked his B-26 at the spawning point of a field in contention, and GOT 38 KILLS.
He got the same folks several times!!
All they had to do is spawn elsewhere.
Imagine how they would react when they respawned and were just standing at the end of the runway, sans an aircraft. I think they would get the point that it was perhaps time to launch from a different field.
Again the B-17s on the ground, shooting the Paras as they are dropped. If there is no ammo available to the B-17s they will have difficutly shooting the paras.
We have to fly C-47s to drop the Paras, C-47 are pretty fragile, and I can't remember any time the first one got through.
If you force the defenders to fly C-47s to resupply fields, it will move some of the vultures away from a field to hunt the Resupply aircraft.
YOu would be low and slow, to hunt the resupply aircraft, easy prey for the people who launched from other fields. THis improves the resupply possibility for Team Friendly C-47s.
Perhaps you could airdrop cargo to your field, and not have to land to resupply, this will make it better also for the defenders.
I kinda agree that the B-17s and B-26s bombsights could be tuned down prior to implementing the Base Closure stuff I have suggested.
Another thing you could do is require fewer Paras to capture an airfield, because of the way the Paras are such targets on the ground.
As response to your responses to me.
1. YOu did have the respawnable ack wagons that could kill paras, and you turned the guns of on the ground, what if you turned the ammo off instead, better yet allow my team to turn the ammo off.
2. Now you can bomb planes, I remeber early on trying to bomb the Ack Wagons, and It didn't kill them, it just destroyed the runways. I didn't know that you could bomb the spawning point and get K's so now I am happy about this one.
3. The reason I say that a C-47 must resupply a field in contention, after the Ammo and Fuel have been bombed is because the attacking team must fly in a C-47, and they easily fall prey to the defenders, this would put the shoe on the other foot, and if a team really wanted to keep a field, then they could fly C-47s in to save it. This would make a race of who could get the field either captured, or resupplied. Folks fly the C-47 now to capture a field, I think many would fly them in to keep it also.
I can also see adding AI Ground Re-Supply that can be JABO'd, but I would still allow the Team to resupply a field in contention.
Your right no one wants to fly Cargo In on a Regular Basis, I am saying make it so that if they re-supply a field in contention it will improve the odds. THis would not be a regular basis type of thing, but a necessity, much like one faced by the attackers.
The other two points, yes do lead to closing a field.
My problems is that it is FAR TO EASY to defend in the face of superior odds. HT We have been doing the field capture thing for years now, and some of us are old hats at it. I don't think any of us want things in your sim to be easier to do. I may be wrong, but it is a CHALLENGE that keeps me comming back. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in sneaking a C-47 in low and quick, and capturing a field. Think of how it would be being the person who saved a field by getting the supplies in, when they are needed.
The reason I made the suggestions I did is because I see,
1. A lot of people complaining about being vultched, I say make it painfully obvious that at some point it is no longer viable to continue to respawn at a field under attack, the rook in the B-26 got 38 kills, because some folks were not smart enough to realize that it was a bad idea to continue to respawn there. I saw one name in the buffer of those 38 seven times, he killed the same person 7 times!!!!
2. Those folks that currently respawn at those fields can EASILY KILL ONE PARA ON THE GROUND, this makes the field uncapturable.
You have to get another C-47 there, and by the time you do the ack is back up.
I know that the argument can be made that the attackers can launch more than one C-47 at a time, and this is often the case, and the amount of attrition often leads to only 1 of those C-47s getting through before the ack is back up.
If more than one C-47 does get through, then the other guys flying there, don't get any mission points, credit, even enjoyment, they basically can now land at a captured field.
Your arguments don't necessarily swing both ways, I agree the defender should have an advantage, but IMO they have WAY TOO MUCH ADVANTAGE NOW.
Right now we have the beta terrain, is it your intention to limit all the fields in the future to only two or three ack per airfield?
What about diffent calibre and range of acks, 20MM-Vs-40MM-VS-88s?
I have no problem with making it more difficult to bomb from 30,000 ft, I have no problem with less accurate bombsights, I have no problem with increasing target hardness.
I would rather make the initial assault against the airfield in contention more difficult and have a easy final touch to capture.
I.E. Make it difficult to bomb out the acks, fuel, ammo bunkers, and then make it so that the field is closed, and easy to get a C-47 in, unless defenders launch from other airfields, and keep the goonies at bay, while the defenders get a couple of C-47s in and start to rebuild the field.
Give the C-47 more of a task than a bus service.
Let someone fly from the main field in a C-47, they fly to the ammo factory, and can load four 20mm or two 40mm or one 88mm into a C-47 and fly it to a field. Once there it could improve the ack at that field.
That will cause people to
1. Start bombing the strategic target to limit the defenders the ability to supply or improve their fields.
2. Get attackers to divide their efforts, folks will have to plan attacks deeper into enemy territory, to limit the ability of the defenders to supply and improve thier fields.
Yes there should be a limit, I shouldn't be able to move 400 20mms, 200 40mm, and 100 88mms to a field to defend it, but perhaps I could get twenty 20mm, ten 40mms, and six 88s to a field.
Plus if you give the player who lands the ack the ability to place it at that field, it will make it more difficult for Players Bombers to rely on old GlarsMaps, because the ack placement may be diffent every time.
WHen a field rebuilds or a reset occurs all the field gets is the assigned default equipment.
There would still be field capturing fights HT, that is after all the overall point of the SIM/Strategy. My Ideas wouldn't eliminate them, it would modify them.
There are a lot of guys that like to JABO, and this sim currently has very limited (almost none) JABO Rolls.
Buffing is TOO EASY and DEFENDING A FIELD is too easy.
The initial thought of this thread was in response to all the Vultch Whines, and my disgust at how one lucky spawn could ruin a hard fought field capture, by killing one para.
I don't attest to make or want, hard and fast changes. I am not saying make the sim performbthis way, or I won't pay. My intent is to start a discussion that will hopefully lead to a viable solution, and something will evolve.
You responded, and people with similar thinking are responding, we have arguments or discussions, and diffent points of view.
WE CREATE A BRAIN TRUST.
From that brain trust, hopefully a viable solution will evolve.
Its your company, your sim, I can't make you change a thing.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 01-24-2000).]
-
Downtown-
My only problem is that as long as there are 3 countries I don't feel your ideas will entirely work. Resets will occur on the hour. And as for questioning the "intelligence" of someone respawning on a vultched field, that is one-dimensional. The underdog team may be reduced to three options:
1.) Bite the bullet and defend to the end, or;
2.) Switch sides, or;
3.) Log off.
Which is the most attractive option? I personally have a problem changing sides just because my side is losing. I don't want to log off just because my side is losing. I'll bite the bullet and fly. I may not enjoy getting beat in the head, and I'm sorry if I ruin your time doing it (at the time), but I'm paying for it over and over just to claw into the air.
Change it 2 countries, and you may have something. Too much seal clubbing happens in the current MA without giving the hunter a bigger stick. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-
Btw im liking this thread have been writing some stuff for it. Stay tuned.
HiTech
-
Dolomite,
Your right, when your down to your last field, you may have no choice but to spawn there.
The other night, the Bishes had many fields when the B-26 sat at their spawning point.
He got 38 ran out of ammo and taxied onto the spawning area, the collison got him to the spawner.
He then flew back and got 14 more before ack came back to life and did him in.
The rooks still had all their other fields.
In Real Life, like this sim, once you start to loose, things are gonna go bad for you.
The LW Lost most of their late war aircraft when the were vultched either taking off or landing, I have seen a lot of film of P-47s and P-51 nailing ME-262s as they are landing.
So if you are loyal to your team, you have no choice but defend to the end, and I don't question the intelligence of those folks. Its just the ones that respawn when they have several other choices. And then they complain about it.
It is a fact of life and war, when you start loosing, you usually don't recover. I still don't see resets occuring on an Hourly basis.
There are even some folks who change sides toe the Underdog team. I am a rook, and will probably stay one, there are lots of times that the Bish'es and Knits vultch me, I don't complain, when I get tired I launch from elsewhere.
If its the last field, I will re-spawn and respawn until the reset occurs, or enough other rooks log on to make a defense of it.
We can't all win all the time, I can accept that.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
-
I want to say this also. If you give the players the ability to place ack, the first ones I would set would be 40MM and .50 cals at either end of the runway, right in the vultch path/circuit.
But I am cruel.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
-
Downtown...
Why do complaints by the vultched bother YOU the vultcher?
Let 'em whine...it's an online ACM tradition!
..and I don't think making field capture easier, as you suggest, is going to improve the game. We'll just reset more often/quickly.
-
i may be the only one but sometimes i like flying from vultched fields. i like being able to make it off the field and nailing a con when everyone is gunning for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Lots of Ideas out there...
How about this.
Many of you would seem to like some sort of logistics support for fields under attack...
Whithout the whole infastructure in place this means c47s...
No c47 is going to make it to a well vulched field. So saying things like Let us nock out a field entirly so that we can cruise in in our 47 and the other guy has to run the guantlet in a 47 to stop us ..is silly wont happen...But...
At night it could happen..
Dusk is allready very apparent in the game..goonys can hide much better as the sun gets low. What if it went down for 1 hr every 4..
Launch the Mossies!,and 61s...Everybody load a 47.... resupply those bases.. Try to hit an ack at night if you think you can...
Would introducing night be less work then railways? Truck convoys? I dont know.
Maybe you could make it so that you could "see" your friendly fields in the dark,
Icons would probebly go down to 2k.
------------------
Pongo
-
Just to check what I suspect about buffing and field captures I tried a little experiment today.
Loaded a -17 full of fuel and packed it with 100 pounders.
Took off from 1, headed NE and climbed on a/p. Went away from the keyboard to do household duties/chores.
Came back around 25K and turned for Rookland, kept climbing and went AFK to pay the bills.
Finally at 30K I was nearing F15 and ready to begin the mission, flattening ack behind the FEBA (forward edge of the battle area.)Big battle was at F2, Rooks had taken it and were defending. Co-ordinated with Terne to launch a -47 from 6->15. Killed 4 acks, Terne takes field..easy.
Went on and killed ack at F12 but no -47 volunteers.
Went on an killed ack F11, coordinating with Fats for the -47. Easy capture.
Turned for F12 and noticed a dot, nearly co alt..probably a fighter but low.
Passed over dot, he keeps climbing on 6. Went back and killed 2 acks at F12, dot still in trail, no -47 avail, so press on to 9.
Dropped on 2 acks at 9, furball at 15 now so no -47 avail, dot still trailing so I head for 11. Dot uses cutoff in turn and I ID a nme -51, now co-alt.
He keeps closing but never gets closer than about 2k (we're at 36k now). Kill 2 acks at 11 and -51 spins out and is no longer a factor.
Knights have captured 7, so I head there, low gas (kill motors and glide down to 20K.) Go glider on line up, but still get one ack before fighters get me.
So, 16 acks killed, 2 fields captured (and could have been more with a bit of co-operation..not a bish characteristic <G> )and finally shot down due to lack of gasoline. Not that long spent at the keyboard, either.
Basically, a buff at 30K + is untouchable.
Do we really want to make field capture easier?
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-26-2000).]
-
Not quite, like I said in another thread lately my favorite hobby as been taking a G10 to 36k and cruising for bombers. With a proper setup on a G10 you can really paste a B-17 you catch up there.
-
Oh ya...have I mentioned trains and truck convoys lately??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Unless I'm wrong again, Trains had some fairly impressive AAA capabilities. Have a rail siding for Main fields. If you have a train in station at a field it would increase a fields defensive abilities.
Give all ack an ammo counter, as long as supplies are making it in they will be able to keep up fire.
Trains could carry Ammo supplies from factories to ammo dumps in far flung areas. From there Truck convoys would take it to area fields via variable routes. I would love to see roads winding through canyons or carved into some of the mountains in AH.
Buffs from 30k I would imagine would have a hard time hitting a moving target, allowing more use of Jabo tactics. STUKA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You want to take a field with fighters?..Starve them of supplies. Do you want to defend the field?..protect the convoys.
Give us key bridges to Knock out. Protect them with 88's and 40mm.
Any other thoughts guys?
-
I said earlier in the thread that the B-17 and B-26 Bombsights should be toned down.
I don't want to make it significantly easier.
The Problem I see right now, it the continual spawners can kill one para and its over.
If folks aren't paying attention its easy to capture a field. If they are there, its tough.
I also said that I am in favor of hardening the targets so that one lone B-17 or B-26 Can't close a field.
And it is tough to get a freindly C-47 to a well vultched field, I never said it would be easy for the Defenders, I just said it would be easier. Their fields are closer, shorter trip. Easier to convince fighters to launch with and defend. Easier for those fighter to kill attackers, cause the attackers must go low and slow to find the C-47s flying in supplies.
As soon as a C-47 makes a pass over the field, and it drops one package and that package hits the ground, it would have an impact on the Field it was supporting, 10 Paras must get to the map room.
I just think its too easy to defend.
Make it so 5 paras capture a field if you are all so opposed to my other suggestions.
------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
-
I totally support downtown's argument. Right now, strategic actions don't really have much effect. I find it very unrealistic that when a base is bombed to ground planes still can take off w/o problem.
In this case, make the base closed, and have defenders fly in from other bases. As the attackers do as well.
-
Darkeye
The whole thing is unrealistic. But it all works as a game..The ability to shut down a field from the air would require a totaly rebuilt ack, administration and terrain control system. If we had that we would not be capturing fields, We would be supporting the infantry as they take and hold ground...
Maybe some day that will happen, but until then bases have to remain open unless we want toad to shut down rooks or nights with one unaposed buff sortie.
------------------
Pongo
-
HTC;
My thoughts and ideas about field capture.
- BUFF bombs, way too accurate. 1 bomb, 1 ack from any alt, too easy... 3 or 4 bombs then field has no ack defense. Make ack harder to hit from high / med alt. Get rid of the LGB's. Make it so BUFF must "Bracket" the target with pickled drops to insure a kill.
- A JABO role. Put troops and/or light armored vehicles in and around fields. These units can not be seen by BUFF's norden sight. Akin to "Mini Acks", their purpose would be solely to defend the base against para drops. Shooting only the troopers. These units would have to be strafed or attacked with explosive ordinance from low alt JABO before a field could be captured. I do not mean the "Respawn Respawn Respawn" player kind of units. They should be fixed position, but the position should be random when the base comes up each time.
- C-47 re-supply, IMO is a bad idea. You can barely get players to fly C-47's to capture fields now. Some like the boring C-47 flights better than ACM or BSU (Blowing Stuff Up), but most do not.
- Attacking fuel tanks limits fuel in all planes. Add in the feature of attacking ammo bunkers restricts the quantity for fighter or BUFF gun ammo loads as well as BUFF bomb loads. This requires that ammo bunkers be BUNKERS, requiring muliple "direct" bomb hits. Another good JABO role.
I do like the idea of a base closing for a few minutes to allow a C-47 to get in. I don't like the the idea of closing a base for longer periods. HT is right, the low level furball and vulchfest is fun.
EoR (End of Rant) Thanks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-04-2000).]
-
Hi All,
Seems the crux of this problem is Buffs. I think the biggest problem is that it is to easy to fly a bomber sortie. First it seems easier to get a B-17 to 30K than a Mustang. Second, with the laser Norden a single Buff can kill all the base's defenses with a couple of passes.
I suggest that some sort of inaccuracy be built into the Norden. The object of this would be to require the use of a salvo of 3-4 bombs to ensure a hit on the target. Additionally the targets should be a little harder to kill. I'd like to see something like a 100 lber would have to hit dead center to kill an ack but a 500 lber could be off a little and still kill it and a 1000 lber could be a little further off and still get the kill. Also add blast effects. For instance you drop a 500 lber close to the barracks and it does some damage but does not destroy it, but if you had dropped 3 500lbers even though they were slightly off the combined effect of the blasts would destroy the barracks. That sort of thing.
Sharky
------------------
You can run, but you just die tired.
-
Just a couple of thoughts about a few things posted
Bomber guns on the ground: Kill the ammo bunkers. If ordinence is disabled at a field the bombers can't launch (look at our destruction of nit ammo factory and all ammo bunkers at fields the other night. saw NO bombers for about an hour) This just adds another element to capturing a field that's contested if the defending force starts sitting there with bombers. Drop the ammo bunkers, then drop a bomb on the "ackstars"
The strategy system.
The model is already capable of making pilots so frustrated they want to log off. I've watched numbers in a country drop when The Wrecking Crew has been on a full scale strategic campain.