Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Rockdog on October 03, 2008, 11:13:55 AM
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I know the Storch has been brought up before with possible add ons such as pilot rescue, troop/supply deployments, but I have another idea that may make it worth of adding to the game.
It was used frequently for aerial reconnaissance and often was outfit with a belly camera. I propose bringing it in with option of using it to locate GV's on the Map by allowing Storch pilots to take a snap shot through a ground camera that would function similar to the bomb sight. The GV's would show up as a dot on the nearby friendly radar (maybe Blue to distinguish them) for a period of a few minutes to allow enemy's better to find each other. This would also be a static snapshot of locations so that a moving GV could not be tracked by radar, but would give the position at the time of the photo.
I think it would be a fun enhancement to an already great game, giving it an added level of depth.
What do you guys think?
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Does anyone have other suggestions for Recon aircraft?
How do people feel about GV on the enemy radar if within sight of enemy GV's?
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I'm stuck between yes and no. Yes, the reconnaissance portion of the request is great because it can be used later on to survey enemy airfields and strat. No, the, "Take a snapshot of the field to find the hidden GVs" portion will be used to such an extent that you'll only receive whines from tank drivers. Later on the feature would also be used to place an icon of the enemy TG on the map. This would also spark more whines as the TGs are already easy enough to sink.
So, as you can see. I'm stuck between yes and no on this one.
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I would rather see colored smoke and ground markers shot from aircrafts. Only then would we need an unarmed recon plane. Much more fair, being it unarmed and with most being slow with a low service ceiling.
I say a yes to this one as long as we get ^ with it.
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I think smoke rockets would be the best solution.
Maybe have the planes radar dot be blue instead of green.
So friendlys can spot where your circling.
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Allow the Fi156 to up from V bases and ports, not just airfields. Give all the bases some fixed artillery and allow the Storch and maybe Jeeps to spot for it. Top ranked guy gets priority I guess. Maybe give it a reduced icon range to help it survive as well.
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thats a good idea greebo :aok
,Grey
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I like this idea! :salute
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I agree...Storch, Piper Cub, maybe an Auster AOP.
Then we'd have infrastructure in place in the event of playable/deployable field artillery, or perhaps in conjunction with naval bombardments.
JH :aok
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Coolio :aok
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Allow the Fi156 to up from V bases and ports, not just airfields. Give all the bases some fixed artillery and allow the Storch and maybe Jeeps to spot for it. Top ranked guy gets priority I guess. Maybe give it a reduced icon range to help it survive as well.
sounds good to me :cool:
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Auster V (1942)
(http://www.fliegergruppe.at/austermkv/auster_mk_v4.jpg)
L-4 Cub
(http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/airshow/2003/Duxford030906/1024/images/045%20Piper%20L-4%20Cub.jpg)
Storch
(http://www.warbirdalley.com/images/storch-05.jpg)
Could probably do without the Auster or the Cub, as they're virtually identical in design and performance, and they look very similar (one by Piper, the other by Taylorcraft).
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I like this idea a lot, it would also open the way for other planes such as the Catalina to be added later on :aok :aok :aok
<S>
Yossarian
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if u did have it so that a gv showed on the map i dont think u can zoom into the map enough to give a detailed position but more of a rough position.
I would rather see colored smoke and ground markers shot from aircrafts. Only then would we need an unarmed recon plane. Much more fair, being it unarmed and with most being slow with a low service ceiling.
I say a yes to this one as long as we get ^ with it.
but i do like this idea. would this be scored or not? and if scored how?
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if u did have it so that a gv showed on the map i dont think u can zoom into the map enough to give a detailed position but more of a rough position.
Perhaps a system could be made which would allow you to click on data from a reconnaissance (maybe all the available recon data could be displayed on a list from the clipboard), and then you would click on an option to follow that particular GV sighting, and a display would come up on the screen which showed the bearing and the distance you would have to fly to reach that particular GV (simulating a pilot being vectored onto a target).
<S>
Yossarian
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According to one of my aircraft history book, it says that the Storch can take up in a space of less than 50 feet. And was able to "hover" in 20mph headwind. If this is true, then this thing could probably be the most manuverable plane we have in the MA, excluding the Rv-8.
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I think that a "check 6" type of look at the bad guy and click a pre-mapped button in order to mark them on the map would be good. It would also give it a way to be scored, and additional points if a designated target is destroyed while still in flight. It would add to the loiter and update aspect of spotter aircraft. If landing next to a downed pilot and allowing you to rescue him was also added, it would add a whole new dynamic to the way people play. I could see both of these getting alot of use in FSO's.
Thank for all of the great suggestions and feedback. I'd really like to see some of this happen.
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i've always been a fan of recon in this game so......
:aok :aok :aok :aok
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we need the american british german/italian due to the part that i have never heard of a italian recon plane (if there was it was probley a licence built coppy of a storch) and jap the one of the jap ones i belive had the ability of carying 4 50 kg bombs
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According to one of my aircraft history book, it says that the Storch can take up in a space of less than 50 feet. And was able to "hover" in 20mph headwind. If this is true, then this thing could probably be the most manuverable plane we have in the MA, excluding the Rv-8.
Slats AND flaperons! :aok
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2 infantry troops and a (chuteless)vehicle supply enabled from a vehicle field.
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Why try to distor the reality for the game when it should be exactly the opposite?
Any artilelry and GV battle, air recon, artillery blast was done with map coords (map grid, ruler, compass ect..)
1st: only infantry/GV/artillery with a topgraph was able to give targets. For the artillery was a FD fire director (scout) for the GV was usually an airplane.
2nd: artillery tanks had to be very close since there was no GPS sistems or inertial navigation sistems (wich now allow to the PCF post of command fire) to give the fire elements to all artillery cannon or GV indipendently from theyr position. In the WWII was needed a battery topograf wich, with the FD elements, and depending on the GV/battery position, it calculated the bearing and azimuth giving the same element to all cannons (wich was usually in a range of 50 meters).
The same for GV, the tanks was getting theyr info from the CC "carro comando" (translated command tank) where the group officiers was getting enemy position, informations ect and then with theyr short range radio they was giving those information to they tank commanders. Why a short range? in WWII you didn't had satellites to spot enemy GV, the first way to fid out enemy was with triangulation of radio transmissions or by observers.
Now, how would be really "deep" the GV experience in AH?
1st: use the radio transmission (by vox or chat) would give to the enemy the possibility to spot your position (anytime you talk you give your position)
when? when there are camping GV, recon airplanes in a XX range.
2nd: GV vox and chat range should be decreased
3d: any map coord (position distance) should be visible only for tactical GV/planes (ex Storch and jeep) wich would be the FD giving his information to a PCF. (since we'r talking a bout MA and not a scenario) anyone should be considered as a PCF. According to the 1st point, FD is also visible when talking on radio (long range), the PCF would only listen, talk to the DF would give your position.
4th: if we will see artillery addon in AHII I wish it will be limited as it was IRL and not having decades of artillery tank hide in all map corner firing on a target with an easy mode like we already have with the land mode on CV. Due to his long range, artillery would need a DF giwing coords, a PCF (jeep) getting those coords and with a FARGO (wich was the artillery tablette used to calculate the bearing and azimut) give to the artillery GV the fire elements. Maybe by Map clipboard, put your coord, put target coord and get the fire elements.
Just some thoughts about how do I see GV in AH :)
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...If landing next to a downed pilot and allowing you to rescue him was also added, it would add a whole new dynamic to the way people play...
That's going too far. Search to find out why.
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That's going too far. Search to find out why.
I respectfully disagree that because a new feature was suggested before and not adopted it should never be revisited. The main objection I have seen from HTC to the pilot rescue feature was a lack of intrest and use in the MA combine with the delay it would impose on other upcoming features as they would have to be pushed back in the cue. With the addition of a VTOL recon bird that is already on site over the GV battle field, there would be many opportunities to perform rescues in the heat of the same battle.
As for scoring it, someone once suggested awarding some of the downed pilots perks (i.e. the portion he would have lost by bailing or ditching) to the rescue pilot. This would be a great incentive to use it and would not throw the perks balance out of whack.
I'm just trying to build the same frame work in order to justify getting my hands on a Storch or Cub in the game. ;) I truly believe that a VTOL aircraft that can be used as a spotter on the GV battlefield with the addition of pilot rescue would add a very compelling reason to add the plane. As for everyone who doesn't see the value in this bird, don't you still want a nice slow, unarmed, target to shoot at?
p.s. I had HTC tell me that widescreen for AH was not possible and unnecessary, but now we have that wonderful goodness, why not a new support aircraft?
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I'm not disagreeing with your aircraft wish, I'm disagreeing with your thoughts on pilot rescue. I've mentioned it before, and I'll mention it again. If pilot rescue were implemented, which message are you more likely to see on country text:
Pilot: Is anyone in the area of ##,##?
Pilot: Just curious if anyone could pick me up.
Pilot: If not I'll just end sortie.
Pilot 2: Someone pick me up NOWWW!!!!
Pilot 2: OMG! That plane just flew over me!
Pilot 2: HE IS SUCH A TARD! HE COULD HAVE PICKED ME UP!
Pilot 2: OMG PEOPLE!!! I HAVE 3 KILLS!!!! THIS IS IMPORTANT!
Pilot 2: You're all idiots! PICK ME UP!
Now, based on what you think is more likely to occur, would you like to see it on country all the time?
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I see your point, but if our goal was to eliminate annoying comments on range and country text, we would have to disable the ability for two planes to pass each other head on. Also, if you are flying around the GV battle field, you constantly hear requests for supplies and people to tell them where the enemy is. No matter the function there will always be those that annoy you because of it.
Why punish the rest of us? You can always make use of the squelch function if someone is abusing the vox. I do it all the time, and it works great.
One way to address this would be to have support aircraft and downed pilots be indicated in a different color on the clipboard map. You could also have a designated text channel for rescue (i.e. country/ range/ squad / rescue) This would let downed pilots know if there were any support aircraft around without asking.
p.s. If the reward for the downed pilot was minimal (maybe just affect their k/d ratio) then they would not have the incentive to be a pest about it. For FSO and for the support pilot, though, it would add a ton of fun!
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(http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/IJNA6M/FI156/fi156no1x2.jpg)
(http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/IJNA6M/FI156/fi156no7x2.jpg)
(http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/IJNA6M/FI156/fi156no10x2.jpg)
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Allow the Fi156 to up from V bases and ports, not just airfields. Give all the bases some fixed artillery and allow the Storch and maybe Jeeps to spot for it. Top ranked guy gets priority I guess. Maybe give it a reduced icon range to help it survive as well.
Put the recon reports (automated data format or user written) into a table like missions, and let the players decide who's data to use. Maybe add a skill-filter of some kind, like bomb calibration, where the arty user has to do something that commands the salvo's accuracy.
- Odisseo seems to have a more accurate and more fun pov on the realistic elements (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,248865.msg3061015.html#msg3061015). The gameplay criteria above still would apply, no need for player rank, that way. You have to follow some sort of calibration for your recon data to be accurate, only see on your map the data that you've chosen in the recon reports listings, and have to actualy use that data to calibrate your mobile or static arty.
Reduced icon visibility is probably required though. Maybe 1K for something like the Storch and 500y for something like a recon jeep (no MG) or motorcycle/sidecar.
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I say YES to this a new gameplay dynamic
I can help my buddies without having to drive those piles of junk :salute
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I like the Idea of a "Spotter Plane", no matter what nations it is! But limit it to having just no explosive "Colored" Smoke rounds that you could pick in the hangar. Just a few colors. Red, Blue, Yellow, Purple and White I believe were common WWII colors.
The Air/Sea rescue idea is good, but for later down the road in AH.
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I use whatever I'm currently flying as a spotter aircraft and I use tracers to mark the direction of the targets. I had a good mission or two where I could tell the friendly gv's on the ground where the nme gv's were once I figure out which way everyone is pointing and which way I'm looking.
You don't need a 'new' plane to do it. Just take plenty of gas and hope the ground guys get the wirbles quickly.
wrongway
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That's one sad part of today's AH pilots, they're not creative enough. ;)
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Would be in interesting addition I believe. I can just imagining driving A6M pilots crazy who try to turn. :)
This doesn't contribute to the discussion but after reading about the Fieseler I had to share.
A Storch was the victim of the last dog fight on the Western Front and another was fittingly downed by a direct Allied counterpart of the Storch - a Piper L-4 Grasshopper-from the L-4's crew directing their pistol fire at it. The pilot and co-pilot of the L-4, Lts. Duane Francis and Bill Martin, opened fire on the Storch with their .45 caliber pistols, forcing the German air crew to land and surrender. The involved Storch was the only aircraft known to have been downed by handgun fire in the entire war.
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Does anyone have other suggestions for Recon aircraft?
How do people feel about GV on the enemy radar if within sight of enemy GV's?
Many of the planes we have were used in the recon role, TBM, P-38, SBD, B5N and so on and so on. The spies make a better cv locater than any recon plane.
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A Storch was the victim of the last dog fight on the Western Front and another was fittingly downed by a direct Allied counterpart of the Storch - a Piper L-4 Grasshopper-from the L-4's crew directing their pistol fire at it. The pilot and co-pilot of the L-4, Lts. Duane Francis and Bill Martin, opened fire on the Storch with their .45 caliber pistols, forcing the German air crew to land and surrender. The involved Storch was the only aircraft known to have been downed by handgun fire in the entire war.
Duel in the Sun by Burt Mader
(http://www.burtmader.com/images/Duel%20in%20the%20Sun.jpg)
wrongway
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r u freakin kidding me!!!!!!!!! the aircraft already have an easy enough time seeing gv's.jeez.if anything,we need more anti aircraft guns. and put twin .50 cal machine guns on the tanks.or give the tanks heavier amour.it's hard enough to shoot at other gv's while your being bombed or 30mm straffed.hell man ask for something else. :furious
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kinda off subject but when fighters are strafing armour while spotting they need to fix the damage model.It ticks me off when they rake a tank with small cal fire and I kill them with a main gun shell and only get an assist
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Duel in the Sun by Burt Mader
(http://www.burtmader.com/images/Duel%20in%20the%20Sun.jpg)
wrongway
I sell aviation art for a living. I seriously doubt that this was the last dogfight on the western front. I know this artists work and it is rather bad. If in fact this did happen (which I doubt) I'm sure the German occupants wanted to surrender rather than forced out of the sky by a piper cub and a 45. This artist isn't know for his research.
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I'm willing to believe
Just do a search for "lt william martin storch" and you'll see its not some only one website reference
The MISS ME was an unarmed Piper Cub. While spotting for the US artillery her pilot saw a similar German plane doing the same thing. He dove on the German plane and he and his co-pilot fired their pistols damaging the German plane enough that it had to make a forced landing. Whereupon they landed and took the Germans prisoner. I don't know where they put them since the MISS ME only had 2 seats.
Mark Anderson wrote: "In regards to the duel of two spotter aircraft doing battle during the last days of WW2, Cornelius Ryan wrote of the incident in his book Last Battle. While enroute to scout the area around Berlin Lts. Duane Francies and William Martin, in the last "dogfight" between Americans and Germans in WW2, took on a Fieseler "Storch" under pistolfire from their L-4 Cub, forced the Storch to crash land and its two occupants to be captured by an American troop convoy which had watched the action from below. The above account was also verified to me by correspondence from Mr. Martin in 2003."
If you'd like to buy a copy for yourself
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Battle-Classic-History-Berlin/dp/0684803291
and an interesting bio on the pilot
http://www.5ad.org/units/Duane%20Francies.htm
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I'm willing to believe
Just do a search for "lt william martin storch" and you'll see its not some only one website reference
The MISS ME was an unarmed Piper Cub. While spotting for the US artillery her pilot saw a similar German plane doing the same thing. He dove on the German plane and he and his co-pilot fired their pistols damaging the German plane enough that it had to make a forced landing. Whereupon they landed and took the Germans prisoner. I don't know where they put them since the MISS ME only had 2 seats.
Mark Anderson wrote: "In regards to the duel of two spotter aircraft doing battle during the last days of WW2, Cornelius Ryan wrote of the incident in his book Last Battle. While enroute to scout the area around Berlin Lts. Duane Francies and William Martin, in the last "dogfight" between Americans and Germans in WW2, took on a Fieseler "Storch" under pistolfire from their L-4 Cub, forced the Storch to crash land and its two occupants to be captured by an American troop convoy which had watched the action from below. The above account was also verified to me by correspondence from Mr. Martin in 2003."
If you'd like to buy a copy for yourself
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Battle-Classic-History-Berlin/dp/0684803291
and an interesting bio on the pilot
http://www.5ad.org/units/Duane%20Francies.htm
I have an extensive collections of WW2 books . Many contradict themselves.Take for example the death of Micheal Whittman, many references say it was Typhoons that destroyed his Tiger while others are adamant that it was firefly's .Just because someone wrote it does not necessarily mean that it's gospel, Like I said I doubt that it was the last dogfight on the western front. Also one thing to consider. Both of these planes were light single engined planes, if you have ever been flying in one you would realize that these things are bouncing all over the place. To hit a plane that's dodging your plane while bouncing all over and considering that the piper pilots had to open the side canopy and shot out of the one side makes me think that it would be very difficult if not impossible to hit anything let alone their engine. I use to shot pistols quite a bit at bolling balls set up 50 ft away. In prone position it was hard enough to hit them Considering that the ww2 45 wasn't an acurate pistol I find this hard to believe. I can do a little digging in regards to what was considered the last dogfight but does it really matter. It's all pure conjecture.