Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MjTalon on October 04, 2008, 06:20:43 PM
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Curious is to why the fuss over not including the P47M? Limited amounts produce? As some would know, the P47M did reach operational status even though with 130 air frames. They reached full operational status with Two Fighter Squadrons.
So why not add it? It wouldn't be a task, the P47M is basically a P47N without the wing tanks, a Uprated Supercharger and R2800. Plus '72 Manifold Pressure is actually quite nice :)... Would give those La's and Spits a run for there money in terms of speed and maneuverability.
I know they're alot of planes that need to be added first ( I.E HE 111, Ju87G2, Ju52... and loads more. ) But may we just request the P47M? We need it actually... reason? To boast the P47s reputation as a Fighter Aircraft. And it'll actually play a vital part in some Snapshots/FSO's/Scenario's as well., since it was operational in the ETO as the P47N was PTO.
This could be something on the "To do" list. So please could ya at least consider it. :salute
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It would be a bit like adding the Spit XII, which would be one I'd like. Low numbers, enough other variants of said type to make adding it seem like overkill.
Much more of a novelty, not really needed but might be fun, probably better to put the energy into other birds first.
I'd like the 38H too, but I can make do with the 38G :)
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(http://www.halesworthairfieldmuseum.org.uk/images/photos/welcomed.jpg) :cool:
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Tangmere Wing was high scoring Wing in the Fall of 43 in Spit XIIs too.
The 20th and 55th FGs brought 38Hs to England too and went into combat with them.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying don't do the M. Just saying, in the overall scheme of things it's down the list like my Spit XII or 38H :)
Hopefully it will happen someday, just hoping some of the other birds that we don't have any of, we get first.
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P-47M would make a great perk fighter like the F4U-4.
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Would gladly spend em if it would have a reasonable perk on it.
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How would the M perform?
Would it be like a D-40 with the N's WEP, or would it perform a lot better on MIL too?
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I could be wrong but I doubt a 47M would merit being a perk plane.
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If i remember correctly.
The P-47M was the faster production version of the Thunderbolt. That speed was achieved by using the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-14W or R-2800-57 engine, with the CH-5 turbo-supercharger. At full boost this engine could provide 2,800hp, giving the P-47M a top speed of 473mph at 32,000 feet, an improvement of 50mph over the P-47D.
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Here's a bit of more information:
The P-47M was the faster production version of the Thunderbolt. That speed was achieved by using the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-14W or R-2800-57 engine, with the CH-5 turbo-supercharger. At full boost this engine could provide 2,800hp, giving the P-47M a top speed of 473mph at 32,000 feet, an improvement of 50mph over the P-47D.
The P-47M entered service with the 56th Fighter Group, based at Boxted, in early 1945. By that point the 56th FG was the only fighter group in the 8th Fighter Command still using the P-47. The P-47M was not used against the V-1 flying bombs, as is often stated – that campaign was already over by the time it entered service. It is possible that the three YP-47M pre-production aircraft were shipped to England to serve in this capacity, thus explaining the later confusion.
The P-47M suffered from a series of problems. The new engine was particularly problematic – at one point every engine in use was withdrawn and replaced by new units. It also has much shorter range than the P-47D.
It did not enter active service until April 1945, too late to make a significant contribution to the war. However, the massive increase in speed did allow the P-47M to shoot down a number of Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters, whose pilots must have been surprised to find an apparently familiar aircraft almost keeping pace with them.
Production: 133
Engine: P&W R-2800-57 “C-series”
Horsepower: 2,800
Max Speed: 475mph at 32,000 feet
Cruising Speed: 360 mph
Range: 530 miles at 26,000 feet
Ceiling: 41,000 feet
Span: 40ft 9.25in
Length: 36ft 1.75in
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The P-47M was a special high-speed version of the Thunderbolt specifically evolved to counter the Fieseler Fi 103 (V-1) buzz bomb and the new jet- and rocket-powered fighters that were entering service with the Luftwaffe.
Four P-47D-27-RE airframes (serials 42-27385/27388) were taken off the production line at Farmingdale and fitted with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57(C) engine equipped with a larger CH-5 turbosupercharger. This new engine offered a war emergency power of 2800 hp at 32,500 feet with water injection. Air brakes were fitted underneath the wings to aid in deceleration during dives. These four converted P-47Ds were redesignated YP-47M.
This new engine installation was ordered into production in September 1944 for the last 130 P-47D-30-RE aircraft delivered by Farmingdale, the aircraft being subsequently redesignated P-47M-1-RE. The serial numbers of the 130 P-47M-1-RE Thunderbolts built were 44-21108/21237
The first P-47M was delivered in December 1944, and they were rushed to the 56th Fighter Group in Europe. However, engine problems delayed their use until the last few weeks of the war in Europe. Underwing racks were not fitted, as the P-47M was meant to be operated strictly as a fighter.
Performance of the P-47M-1-RE included a maximum speed of 400 mph at 10,000 feet, 453 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 470 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 560 miles at 10,000 feet. Armament was six or eight 0.50-inch machine guns with 267 or 425 rpg. Weights were 10,432 pounds empty, 13,275 pounds normal loaded, and 15,500 pounds maximum. Dimension were wingspan 40 feet 9 3/8 inches, length 36 feet 4 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, and wing area 308 square feet.
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I could be wrong but I doubt a 47M would merit being a perk plane.
Yes, that is what I'm getting at, if it was more a combo of the D-40 and N, wouldn't merit perking IMHO.
I think I remember reading somewhere that it was a pure fighter, no provisions for carrying ords. If that is indeed the case, I would say it really doesn't need a price.
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Shoot, the P-51D was faster than the P-47M at 10k.
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The more Jugs the better. For that matter, the more P-38s the better. Im on board. :aok
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Well the P51-D max speed at 10k is about 380-410? Can anyone confirm?
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I remember a report of how a guy from (I think) the 56th flying a 47M along some Temps, after the temps tried to show some speed, he just blew right past em!
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P-47M is essentially a D-40 with reduced drag (no hardpoints for ord) and more horsepower. It is about 30 mph faster than a D-40, climbs about an additional 300 ft/min, accelerates about 7% better and should turn a bit better because of the improved power loading. Probably not an uber MA fighter (at typical MA altitudes) but probably good enough to see a lot of MA usage. Below 10,000 feet with WEP engaged speed, climb and acceleration are similar to a P-51D with WEP. Without WEP for either, 51D would have a noticeable edge over 47M (a 51 gets about a 10% HP boost from WEP and an 47M gets about a 28% boost).
Hooligan
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P-47M would make a great perk fighter like the F4U-4.
I've rarely had an F4U-4 shoot me down, on the other hand, they more often than not fall from my gunsight, to the text buffer.
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No ords, performance similar to P-51 at typical alts, but only for 5 minutes. Definitely a non-perker.
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New aircraft.. Another US fighter and another P47 variant? Just what the plane set needs. Might as well bring in some new P38s and F4Us as well... :rolleyes:
<S>...-Gixer
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New aircraft.. Another US fighter and another P47 variant? Just what the plane set needs. Might as well bring in some new P38s and F4Us as well... :rolleyes:
<S>...-Gixer
That was my point Gixer. I'd love a Spit XII or P38H. The Jug drivers would like the 47M. But we have enough variants of those birds right now, that it makes far more sense in my opinion anyway, to hope for birds we don't have.
Beaufighter would be nice :)
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The P-47s we have now are not very good MA planes. It would be nice to have a 47 that was that was a good MA plane. Kind of like it would be good to have another spitfire if only spitfires of mk V and less were available.
Hooligan
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I tried my level damnedest to use D-40/D-25 as an everyday MA dogfighter, but getting down in the weeds is usually a death sentence unless I'm in a numbers positive situation--that 8 or so min of WEP with the N gives a good opportunity to do just that. I've seen a few guys that have that skill, but LOL I'm fairly confident I'll not be one any time soon, so I'm back to N :aok
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I tried my level damnedest to use D-40/D-25 as an everyday MA dogfighter, but getting down in the weeds is usually a death sentence unless I'm in a numbers positive situation--that 8 or so min of WEP with the N gives a good opportunity to do just that. I've seen a few guys that have that skill, but LOL I'm fairly confident I'll not be one any time soon, so I'm back to N :aok
The N has five minutes of WEP.
I would give large sums of money and rights to future offspring for an M/N with 8 minutes of WEP.
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Thing is... the P47M was a fighter and nothing more. It would be one dimensional. No ord. I see it being used like the Typh/Tempest is now.
I say keep adding. If the base model is already in game, it would take that much less to add it in game vs adding in a whole new platform. The P47M, Spit12, Bf109G-12, Yak-x, P38x, Mossi-x, P40x, etc etc. Get them added. They are the easiest to add.
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Thing is... the P47M was a fighter and nothing more. It would be one dimensional. No ord. I see it being used like the Typh/Tempest is now.
I say keep adding. If the base model is already in game, it would take that much less to add it in game vs adding in a whole new platform. The P47M, Spit12, Bf109G-12, Yak-x, P38x, Mossi-x, P40x, etc etc. Get them added. They are the easiest to add.
The 109G-12 was a two seat trainer. I think you mean the G-10. :aok
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In the reality of the AH world, it wouldn't matter if it could 750mph at 30k, The horde would only take it up to a max of about 12k and then say "This new Jug is rubbish" :)
Look at some of the great crates we have at our disposal in here, Most of them are excellent at 20k + but as usual they are used for vulching, hording etc at around 6k and down.
Bet you a few bucks that the majority would be thinking " Can I get a good vulch on with this new crate"?
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The N has five minutes of WEP.
I would give large sums of money and rights to future offspring for an M/N with 8 minutes of WEP.
However much it has, it's enough, when managed properly (i.e. NOT using it in climbout) I cycle it an and off 30-40 X in a flight, being careful of engine temp---use it like nitrous :aok
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I'm against "barely saw action late war monsters" when they draw HTC's art resources to make them.
This isn't really the case with P-47M or 109G-10 for that matter. Both are asked a lot, both would see a lot of use in the MAs and neither of them would really draw that much HTC's resources. Pyro would have to compute the flight models but being variants I can't see that being too big of a deal. Fester already had nice JG 6 skin which he intented to the K-4 that could be used as a default skin. I'm sure the skinner team would be fast at work to produce default skin for the P-47M as well.
What is the point in crying "WE DON'T NEED THESE, SAW TOO LITTLE ACTION!" when they could almost be done for free?
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However much it has, it's enough, when managed properly (i.e. NOT using it in climbout) I cycle it an and off 30-40 X in a flight, being careful of engine temp---use it like nitrous :aok
Both the 190 D9 and the P-47N are very mediocre performers compared to other LW planes sans WEP. Well, at 30K the Jug is a monster either way, but I'm talking typical MA alts.
The difference is, in the D9 I never find myself short on WEP when I want it, the P-47N, it is something you've got to think about constantly.
Kind of a tragedy too, because come on, an R-2800 with water-injection could easily pull 70" MAP without failing for ten minutes, you know it and I know it. But, got to be a limit somewhere I suppose.
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Both the 190 D9 and the P-47N are very mediocre performers compared to other LW planes sans WEP. Well, at 30K the Jug is a monster either way, but I'm talking typical MA alts.
The difference is, in the D9 I never find myself short on WEP when I want it, the P-47N, it is something you've got to think about constantly.
Kind of a tragedy too, because come on, an R-2800 with water-injection could easily pull 70" MAP without failing for ten minutes, you know it and I know it. But, got to be a limit somewhere I suppose.
There was a horey old chesnut about an engine - that was for purposes of certification run on a dynometer bench for 200 hours at WEP - which they tore down afterwards to find out which parts break. Then, there was an engine that when you mated it to the airframe and installed the baffling - discovered you couldn't keep the cylinder head temperatures low enough during high power operation and WEP to prevent thermal runaway, detonation - and eventually, engine failure.
Point is this - limits established for purposes of certification vs those used OPERATIONALLY aren't synonyms - NOR do they happen to cross paths every once in awhile. You have operational limits because - maybe you need to fly that engine again. That, and mechanically speaking - nothing good for the engine is happening while WEP is running, or ADI, etc. You've got the highest CHTs, Highest Internal Cylinder Pressures - and your detonation margin is the widths of a fly's pubic hair if you don't have the fuel flow set above the manufactures spec.
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I read what I could on the P47 and the few pieces about the 'M' were all about the 56th FG where the engines were over boosted (beyond factory specs). It might be hard to model that. The P47N is the same airplane with more fuel tanks in the wing and clipped tips.
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I have a book of jugs, and have posted about adding the M before, of course I got pissed on by the people who would rather add "more relevent" I.E. useless aircraft that wouldn't see use in the MA.
it was a pure fighter and could reach the dark side of 400mph at only 10K.
It would merit the 5ENY value the N carries (but does not deserve) and was the apex of the Jugs lineage, I dont think a perk would be warranted, considering it could carry no ord, ensuring usage of the other jugs in the plane set.
seems silly not to have it considering it meets all the criteria necessary for inclusion in the game, and had historical significance (262 kills, etc etc)
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The P47N is the same airplane with more fuel tanks in the wing and clipped tips.
negative, same engine, different supercharger, different prop, different purpose.
the N was built for long range escort, the M was built for raw performance and was superior to the N in every aspect except range.
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Since the dev update. Any chance of the P47M added within the next year? :cool:
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im for it love those jugs :aok
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oops
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P-47M is essentially a D-40 with reduced drag (no hardpoints for ord) and more horsepower. It is about 30 mph faster than a D-40, climbs about an additional 300 ft/min, accelerates about 7% better and should turn a bit better because of the improved power loading. Probably not an uber MA fighter (at typical MA altitudes) but probably good enough to see a lot of MA usage. Below 10,000 feet with WEP engaged speed, climb and acceleration are similar to a P-51D with WEP. Without WEP for either, 51D would have a noticeable edge over 47M (a 51 gets about a 10% HP boost from WEP and an 47M gets about a 28% boost).
Hooligan
I can offer specifics. The three YP-47Ms were re-engined P-47D-27s. Production aircraft were based upon the D-30. Originally built without wing pylons, they were installed later in Britain. P-47Ms didn't fly using 100-130 avgas. The 8th AF was using 150 octane fuel by mid spring of 1944. Using the 150 octane avgas, the P-47M could safely pull 80" of MAP, although 75" was recommended. This produced maximum speeds around 480 mph, even with wing pylons. Speed was rated at 473 mph @ 72" using 100-130 in stateside tests.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-differences.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-climb.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-level.jpg)
Thanks to the gents at www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o rg for posting the test data and images.
My regards,
Widewing
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It would merit the 5ENY value the N carries (but does not deserve) and was the apex of the Jugs lineage, I dont think a perk would be warranted, considering it could carry no ord, ensuring usage of the other jugs in the plane set.
P-47Ms could and did carry under-wing ordnance. All were fitted with wing pylons in Britain. Below is an image of two 56th FG P-47Ms taking off with 108 gallon drop tanks. A full 108 gallon tank weighed 690 pounds. P-47Ms were not fitted with rocket tabs.
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47M56fg.JPG)
My regards,
Widewing
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Preach it, Widewing :)
47M plz. :D
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Yes Talen and how did i know u would bring this up?
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I would be so happy to fly the P-47 M in the MA :pray
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i have a ww11 aircraft book and it says that the p-47m is faster than a p-51
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it's a nice dream, eh?
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Holly crap, when is the last time you posted here? :eek:
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The XP-47J began as a November 1942 request to Republic for a high-performance version of the Thunderbolt using a lighter airframe and an uprated engine with water injection and fan cooling. Kartveli designed an aircraft fitted with a tight-cowled Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57(C) with a war emergency rating of 2,800 horsepower (2,090 kW), reduced armament of six 0.50 inch (12.7 mm) machine guns, a new and lighter wing, and many other changes. The only XP-47J was first flown in late November 1943. When fitted with a GE CH-5 turbosupercharger, the XP-47J achieved a top speed of 440 knots (505 mph, 813 km/h) in level flight in August 1944, making it one of the fastest piston engine fighters ever built. However, by that time Republic had moved on to a new concept, the XP-72.
just fun to read!!
was looking for a jug from european theator that was hotroded and polished but cant remember who's it was or the stats on boost, seems like 80 psi was the number and the pilot had the fastest jug in europe, think it was a 47 d-40 any help would be app.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/p47.jpg)
this pic is for Triple5 or tripled not sure which (sorry) who said jugs didn't have a wastegate!!
look closer :aok
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I can offer specifics. The three YP-47Ms were re-engined P-47D-27s. Production aircraft were based upon the D-30. Originally built without wing pylons, they were installed later in Britain. P-47Ms didn't fly using 100-130 avgas. The 8th AF was using 150 octane fuel by mid spring of 1944. Using the 150 octane avgas, the P-47M could safely pull 80" of MAP, although 75" was recommended. This produced maximum speeds around 480 mph, even with wing pylons. Speed was rated at 473 mph @ 72" using 100-130 in stateside tests.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-differences.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47m-n-climb.jpg)
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-level.jpg)
Thanks to the gents at www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o rg for posting the test data and images.
My regards,
Widewing
guess i could have just looked back a page or two lol sorry trip p47-m could safely pull 80 psi manifold pressure tho 75 was re comended :aok look up widewing misses this very rarely
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That was an excerpt from a phone interview Widewing had with Robert S. Johnson, and Mr. Johnson was describing his P-47D-5, "Lucky", and how it was probably the fastest prop plane in the ETO for a time. I forget the exact manifold pressure, but I was thinking it was 72". I talked with another Jug pilot in Amarillo, TX back in 2002, and his P47D-40 was modded by his crew chief to run 80" of manifold pressure. The stories of Jugs being field modded to get more performance are true IMHO, but their relevance to the game is minimal.
I'm sure Widewing will come along sometime; the man is extremely well informed and knowledgable, so any errors on my part are from poor memory and just waking up this morning. :salute
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thanks,, it is good too know i didn,t just dream that up!
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In the reality of the AH world, it wouldn't matter if it could 750mph at 30k, The horde would only take it up to a max of about 12k and then say "This new Jug is rubbish" :)
Look at some of the great crates we have at our disposal in here, Most of them are excellent at 20k + but as usual they are used for vulching, hording etc at around 6k and down.
Bet you a few bucks that the majority would be thinking " Can I get a good vulch on with this new crate"?
Usually... I well recall, however, one strange day in the MA when my colleagues and I encountered a flight of P-47s at 20k+. They refused to come down. We were afraid to go up - and with good reason. I finally got a Ta and took it up there but, by that time, they'd boogied.
Damn shame, they probably could've had another kill...
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Perk the P-47M!!!!! :mad:
Just kidding. ;)
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This is the second time one of my request threads has been granted Gav, the P39 & now the M.
:)
:noid
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Lets celebrate, bro! :cheers:
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TS
:cheers:
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Well the 47M was asked for long before we were around. :)
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This is the second time one of my request threads has been granted Gav, the P39 & now the M.
can you ask for a Yak3 please ?
:)