Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: tomldr on October 13, 1999, 11:06:00 PM
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Having spent a some hours now with Aces High, I would like to heartily suggest that a padlock feature be added to the program. While the current view system is playable, the overall game experience is diminished when a person has to try to manipulate the view system to be able to keep track of a bogey.
Please consider that a pilot is able to padlock with his MK 1 Eyeball and track his target quite easily. The only time he is challenged is at the merge or when he has blown a turn and the bogey gains position. Besides that point, there is no real problem with keeping his eye focused on the target.
This is not so with Aces High. Simple maneuvers can often allow the player to lose the target because of view manipulation problems. It doesn't have to be this hard, and most every sim I have on my HD (probably all) have a padlock feature. I don't get why this essential feature is being left out?
Now, someone said to me during flight today that this is a "SIM" and that's why there is no padlock??? That absolutely does not follow. If it's a sim, then it should SIM the pilot's ability to maintain lock on his target. We do this naturally and swivel our heads to keep lock on a target. This current set up is UN-natural and thus does not simulate a feature we all take for granted.
I am NOT proposing we have padlock be a magic button that always maintains lock even when the bogey is dead six. There are limits to the padlock and I agree to that. Please reconsider this feature.
Sincerely,
Tom
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I can see your point, but IMHO in a multiplayer sim like AH a padlock view is just gonna get you killed twice as quick!
If I'm in a dogfight, the absolute LAST thing I want to do is get fixated on the guy in front of me.. and a padlock view is, by definition, target fixation.
In the short term, a padlock view might help new guys maintain sight of an opponent, but in the long term it's going to give them really bad SA habits.
And remember, in RL combat you would not just stare at one aircraft continually... you'd be scanning the skies around you, even while in a fight.
Or at least, that's what the surviving pilots did (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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I agree with jeykll. Using the number keys or your hat switch is something that takes a bit of practice, but its very effective once you get used to it. And as Jeykll says, the padlock function will have you looking out the front of the cockpit as you follow the bogie, instead of all around you where you should be looking. As you're watching where the bogie is with your padlock view, someone else is sneaking up on your 6. If you use your view switches, you'll know just where everyone is at all times.
The padlock might work fine in an offline sim, but Id hate to get distracted by it on-line with human pilots trying to kill me.
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aussie
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Any ship can be a minesweeper... once.
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tomldr, in the years of playung WB, nobody complained about missing padlock after he/she played a few weeks.
I realize that you are missing it if you got used to it in off-line sims. Give it some time. I am sure that you will not care about it after a while, especially if you have a decent joystic setup (preferably with an 8-way hat).
Good luck.
miko--
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I'm ALL for a padlock view!
Just don't take away the fantastic one we have already.
---HeWhoWillGladlyKillaBogyWhoIsTargetFixatedDueToPadlockUseAnyDay
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Thank you gentlemen for your input. I would like to add something to this discussion. I think that the best of both worlds then is to have a padlock that will let you use the hat to scan the sky and then snap back to padlocked target.
As to scanning the sky while dogfighting, I have to say that I can't see how you are going to line up on a bogey and get the shot while panning left and right to see if someone is on your tail. I believe that is what wingmen are for... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I would love to see a good padlock feature, but it appears I'm in the minority.
Thanks again for your input.
Tom
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"As to scanning the sky while dogfighting, I have to say that I can't see how you are going to line up on a bogey and get the shot while panning left and right to see if someone is on your tail. I believe that is that wingmen are for..."
Checking your six and other quadrants constantly is called "SA" or situational awareness. If you know where the enemy is around you (all of them) then you're able to prosecute an attack better while keeping your defenses up.
Quite honestly having thier heads constantly swiveling & checking the sky around themselves is exactly what almost ALL fighter pilots did as they went in on a target. And they didn't stop as they attacked either. Those who did quite often found themselves the victim to a 2nd or 3rd enemy pilot they failed to see closing in on *them*. That's why I said 'almost ALL' fighter pilots above. Not checking around as you line up? Well, that's how you get nailed by *his* wingman. You're wingman helps clear your six (vice-versa) but what happens when it is you two versus three or more enemy bogies?
I'm not against a padlock view. It's a bit like flying with one hand tied behind your back but if folks like doing that then I'ld never stand in their way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
--Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-14-1999).]
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IMHO, Padlock takes away the advantage of a good pilot. The pilot behind padlocks you and no matter what you do he can follow where you are, Whether under the airplane (or low 6) or behind a ridge. I the canyons quite a few times I have led someone around a ridge only to pop up and over and come back down on his six as he flew around the ridge looking for me (there are 2 or 3 good spots for this). If he had padlock he would know immediatly what we were up to.
Leave it out please.
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Rick "Firefox" Scott
VMF-214 / MAG 11
WB ID: firefx
AH ID: FirefxAT
Have Gun Will Travel
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Seems to me that padlock is necessary in modern sims, but in WWII sims, it actually is a hindrance. I remember Flanker had the best padlock system I'd seen. It would keep your view locked onto a bogey but you could disengage it at anytime to look around, and relock said bogey if you wanted. Plus, it wasn't an "automagic" padlock--if the bogey dropped out of sight, you lost padlock.
In Flanker, padlock mattered. You needed it to be able to fire your Short Range Missles--I forget what they were called, but they would swivel on your wing depending on where your head was facing, provided you had a bogey locked on. Modern pilots have monocles embedded in thier helmets with a little mini-hud on them. Without this monocle, you couldn't fire your SRMs off boresight. Flankers padlock closely approximated the real life systems necessary for a full afterburner, modern military fighter jock to operate the weapons platform.
All in all it was a good and necessary system, but it wouldn't work right in a WWII sim. WWII pilots only had their eyes to depend on... there was no radar, no computer aided monocle sight, no A2A missles. If a WWII fighter pilot knew a bogey was on his left, he looked left and found it. If said bogey then flew under his plane from the left, the pilot could reasonably assume that it would shortly appear on the right side of his plane and look there. See, the view system in Aces High and War Birds and other prop sims perfectly approximates this view system. You want to look up, you press the "UP" button and look up, simple as that. There is no reason to use padlock. All a pilot needs is good SA and some common sense.
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Swoosh of the Skeleton Crew
[This message has been edited by Swoosh (edited 10-16-1999).]
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As I understand padlock, it is not an invention for the modern sim pilot, even EAW has a padlock.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The padlock simulates the pilot's ability to track a target and for a flight-sim, this leaves the pilot free from having to play with the views as well as having to dogfight his opponent. I want to be able to padlock my target (within human limits) and then stop playing with my hat. Yes, I think there should be the ability to use the hat to break padlock and quick scan the sky, but once my finger is off the hat, the padlock should bounce back to the bogey.
Again, I say that padlock simulates what the human player can do with little effort. Tracking a bogey is not something particular to modern jets.
Thanks for the input on this. I figure it's a losing battle, but I'll keep trying to win converts.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Tom,
Padlock is a converstal option in most hardcore simulations unfortunely. To me if it done right, like a visable range and no Laura Blair type head turning and have the regular snap views work along the padlock view like in MSCFS, EAW and WW2 Fighters, it might be accepted by hardcore players.
I am a hardcore player myself..but, I'm different than the other players. I got Cerebral Palsy and have limited usage in my right arm and hand, including limited reach range in my right thumb. I got no left arm usage at all, it just hangs out (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Why am I telling you and others this? I can't use the regular snap views in a furball. So, I need some form of a SA tool to help me. Yes I'll be fixated but, I'll be flying with my squadmates, I know they will keep a eye on my six (hehe sounds kinda kinky doesn't it?)
Padlock might be dweeby and unrealistic to others but its a helpful tool for a simmer like myself.
Falcon
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Padlock is IMO only useful during the engagement phase.
Little use in the DF, unless it is a cheat padlock, that autolocates bog.
Mino
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For me padlocks disorientate me and wreck my immersion. With the exception of pilots with physical challenges surely the best “simulation” is to get very familiar with your controls and your mount and the likely behavior of the enemies mount….
Lock and padlock are very poor simulations of SA(IMHO), because they tell you where too look. That’s like a HUD. It is much preferable to me to make it easy to look where you want. AH does that.
If you want to train for the view system in AH, down load War Birds and use the off-line dog fight. The off-line in AH doesn’t seem to have any enemies in it.
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I would say yes to this under tight situations.... it would have to break tracking as soon the 'head' in the cock pit would loose sight... so if he goes under you you dont track... or around a canyon turn... at this point you are technicaly blind to the bogies situation E state and angle of attack.
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"Again, I say that padlock simulates what the
human player can do with little effort.
Tracking a bogey is not something particular
to modern jets."
Padlock view, that is controlled by your computer, in no way mimicks what ANY human does.
WWII or an F22. It just doesn't happen.
It mimicks nothing natural and is the most
artificial crutch to ever be bestowed upon computer flight sim folks.
--Westy
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I have appreciated reading the views of others on the use of padlock. I still confess to finding it hard to understand why padlock is loathed by so many. I agree that if it cheats by not having the proper human limits, then it is not something for hardcore players.
As for a padlock not simulating in "any way" what a human pilot does in tracking a bogey, I find that a wee bit of an overstatement.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Clearly, a human pilot can and does track his target quite well and with a singular focus. I agree that he also scans the sky for others, but the human pilot does track a single target and focus on it to line up for his kill shot.
Thanks for the continued discussion,
Tom
[This message has been edited by tomldr (edited 10-22-1999).]
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Quite true Tomldr.
However, we are limited in what can be represented considering we are using a computer monitor. A human being can both move eyeballs and neck independently; a pilot can move his head while the rest of his body remains in a relatively static position and hence know the relative heading of the plane relative to his view point.
Neither of these are possible in a sim. Switching view is effectivly moving the head; there is no physical feedback regarding plane heading, although canopy markers can try and make up for this.
I personally find two things:
1. Switching views manually gives me a very good idea of relative plane heading since I am holding the view hat in position and works as a physical cue.
2. In terms of SA, it is absolutely imperative to know where to "look" for a bogey and how it relates to one's plane's position. RL pilots inherently have this through physical feedback -- it is easy to track a target with subtle movements of the head, and it is easy to tell the heading of the plane.
Not using padlock forces the user to acquire the target. Most experienced players rarely look "forward" but effectively keep the target in view... "lost sight, lose the fight" is an important maxim. Padlock is a crutch to make up for poor SA and has other detrimental effects like encouraging target fixation.
Learn the view system, love it, and use it. You'll never go back. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cheers,
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phaetnAT
Aces High Alpha Tester
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Padlock users are LAZY.
Get your OWN friggin' views!!!
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Just wait for VR headsets with full peripheral display, and head movement tied into the game's display... then you won't need a keypad/hat view system, or padlock (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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We've had this discussion before, both here and on AGW. Like Tomldr, I don't understand the general vehemence among some folks that this suggestion elicits. The real question is, would you be opposed to the inclusion of a P/L view option if:
1) It was completely at your discretion as to whether you yourself use it;
and
2) Could be implemented in such a way as to conform to the actual limitations of a person in the cockpit, i.e. P/L broken if something obstructs the line-o-sight, or if the person looks away from the P/L view for more than a few seconds.
If you're not being forced to use it, and if it doesn't give an unfair advantage to the guy who uses it, why do you oppose it?
I'm quite comfortable with the view systems in both WB and AH, but I'd still like the option of a P/L view. I certainly wouldn't use it in every situation, but I can also certainly invision a time and place for it. Many of you claim that those who have gained proficient use of P/L in other sims do so because of laziness or inability to master static view keys. I submit that the opposite could be said. In other words, if you don't use P/L, it's because you won't take the time to learn it's unique uses. Proficient use of P/L requires effort. SA is NOT just knowing where the current target is, and keeping it in view. You have to know when to give up the padlock and when to switch the target being padlocked.
In many ways, using a P/L in AH such as I desribe above is actually harder than using static view keys. It IS easy to loose SA on the surrounding engagement environment, and all to easy to forget where the ground is, or how severe you AOA. But it rewards those who become comfortable with it.
A R/L pilot tracks a target with his eyes by turning his head and eyes, and he does it without thinking. When he glances away for a moment to check instruments or his six, the muscles in his neck and torso "remember" where the target was a moment ago, and so can quickly re-acquire the target. If he looks away too long, or the target goes behind an obstuction, he must THINK about where to look, where the target might have gone. This mimicks quite nicely what you would have to do if you had P/L in a sim. The static view keys help you locate/re-locate a target, while P/L allows you to focus on it.
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Rojo (S-2, The Buccaneers)
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--- Rojo: ---
It IS easy to loose SA on the surrounding engagement environment, and all to easy to forget where the ground is, or how severe you AOA
--- end ---
Doh! Well that is _the_ point. Padlock doesn't give more SA, so why bother spending time implementing it?
//fats
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Fats: Wrong! I said it CAN result in loss of SA, but only if used improperly. If you stay in P/L view, it's easy to kiss the ground or loose your orientation with it; but the same thing can happen if you're using static views. The trade off is P/L makes it easier to track a target. Instead of using those static views to track that target, you use them to track the overall situation. Without P/L, you have to use the static views for both.
Let me ask you this, my friend: while engaged with a boogie, do you spend more time looking at the target, or looking somewhere else? Personally, my answer is the former. P/L would just spare my poor aching thumb some strain (not to mention wear and tear on my 4-way hat switch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). I'd only use the hat to "glance" at things, while my P/L view would do the "staring." for me. So P/L WILL improve SA, if you use it and don't abuse it.
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Rojo (S-2, The Buccaneers)
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Rojo:
The way I understand you would like padlock to work:
1. press key XYZ and it locks on closest enemy ( ? ) or some other way of deciding on who to lock
2. press hat switch to get rear view to check six
3. release hat switch and pad lock goes straight for the plane you locked on in step 1
If you scan the skies, other direction than your intended target, you still have to re-accuire him in RL. No device is gonna lock back in on him automagically. Sure you'll have a hunch that he'll be in direction X, but that's what you get with what we have right now as well.
How are you gonna lose _anyone_ behind canopy railings for example? If the pad lock disengages every time someone goes behind them then it's even more useless than I first thought it would be. Will pad lock lose enemy con cause the terrain behind it blends with it under 5Gs and at the edges of the tunnel vision? How do you determine the %of these things happening? Is the % equal for all pilots? Whops where did the human factor go? Well back to off-line sims I guess against AI drones...
//fats
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I was voting against the padlock, but only because I thought that it was not that important and dod not want HTC creu wasting time on it.
I was sure that it is possible with clever programming to make it realistic and avoid all the problems mentioned by other detractors:
- while in padlock, a press on a view button brings you to that view, once you release you go back to padlock, provided you do it within 3 seconds. Enough to do a quick scan, but prevents cheating.
- padlock is lost if the plane disappears from view for more then 1 second - be it terrain, canopy railings, clouds or anything else.
The one crucial reason I finally saw why padlock should not be implemented is the one mentioned by fats:
A pilot can use the camuflage paint of his plane and the terrain to became almost invisible in certain conditions, unless the enemy is real close. Some people would be able to track/reaquire such a target better or worse depending on their skill and experience. The padlock will negate that. Once you lock on something while he is siluetted against a clear sky, it will still keep locked even if the guy dives to the ground. So it becomes a radar with look-down capability unmatched by even modern doppler radars.
Making the padlock lose lock in such conditions will not work. For some it will happen while they can still see the target, for others it will still work when they do not see it well. The code will be very complex - a white plane (IJN) trailing white smoke against a cloud is less visible, but if the smoke is black it is more visible. Blue navy planes are hard to see against the sea, sometimes even against the sky, etc.
There will always be people for whom it is too much while for others it will be not enough.
miko--
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 11-03-1999).]
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Hello again fellow pilots.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm kinda surprised about the latest argument that a pilot can lose targets and thus we shouldn't use padlock. It seems silly to mention that since AH has this huge RED and GREEN lettering that tells me things like "P-51" and distance.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lose someone because they can blend into the dirt? How? That would only be the case if AH had NO LABELS. Is there an option for that? As long as we have the label cheat and thus no realism .. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I say let's give us pilots a padlock as well.
Happy flying,
Tom
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tomldr:
In WB there was one exeption to the icons rule - if you flew real low, less then 300 feet above ground, the icon did not show until very, very close.
Many people used that to stage a wave-top bombing raid or Jabo strike. There was a fair tradeoff - if somebody did detect you (people running 2D had advantage here), you had very few chances to survive.
miko--
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Padlocks again....
Yup, for most people, using a padlock in a multi-bogey situation isn't as good for SA as using views.
HOWEVER, some folks are handicapped. I have a friend who can't use but 1 arm, and not all the fingers on that hand. He flies quite well but he can't use his thumb so good. So he has real problems with hat-based views. A padlock would be a big SA improvement for him.
For that reason, I'd like to see a padlock OPTION in AH. It would allow handicapped guys to participate more than they can now, which would be a good thing for all of us.
-Bullethead <CAF>