Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LLv34_Camouflage on March 30, 2001, 06:34:00 AM
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Hi!
As it is now, the aircraft in AH can be flown at full throttle all day long. It would be nice if the planes would demand realistic engine management in the form of modeling engine overheating:
Run the engine at high throttle settings for too long and it will start to overheat. If you don't cool it down, it will start taking damage and slowly loose power. If you continue pushing it, it will eventually start loosing oil or even explode.
Thoughts, comments?
Thanks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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A post from Pyro from a thread in General Discussion (Poll: Improved Engine Modelling):
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/milpower.jpg)
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Yep, I've seen that scan. I'm not talking about WEP limits here. Notice how that text says "...provided engine temperatures and pressures are within limits." Thats what I'm talking about: engine overheating if you run it at too high manifold pressure settings for extended periods of time.
Its the same thing if you drive your car on the freeway at 150kmh, at 3rd gear, with the gas pedal jammed to the floor. The engine is not going to like that I'm sure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Engine overheating and loss of power (manifold pressure) because of damage (overheating and/or bullets!) was modelled nicely in EAW. It would be great to see something similar in AH as well.
Camo
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As in previous posts/polls/flamewars, I would like to have realistic engine management. Firewall throttle routinely should have adverse effect on engine durability. I would like mixture control, magnetos, etc. when not Komandogėrat available.
But, I don't think we have numbers enough to change current settings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe.
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Magnetos? Yeah, I really want to do a whole load of pre-flight checks - NOT!
This is a combat game, not a GA sim. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Engine heat levels linked to power and radiator/cowl flap settings would be nice though. Give the stratobuff dweebs something to do while they climb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Not to repeatedly plow old ground...BUT...
If the engine and accessory package (oil/air cooler, lubrication system, mixture, etc.) are operating "normally", sustained full throttle would most likely NOT result in a problem while in flight.
Engine longevity over the longer term might or would be affected. In other words, the engine might not make the specified time between overhaul (TBO). Instead of say 1000 hours before overhaul you might get 500-600.
I think the idea that a properly operating engine & accessory package could not run for an hour or more at full throttle with no apparent loss of power or immediate damage is most likey a misconception.
The key in most aircraft engines is to watch your oil temp. If it rises into the red, you better do something different.
In my limited experience with Ranger engines from the time period, it has all depended on the engine/cooling package. I've never had a problem, but my engine was built to factory standard and the oil cooler system is correct for the engine.
I've had friends who have had engines "improved" by rebuilders to use less oil (big tolerances in the engine allow oil to be used for cooling. Some oil is lost in this process; some people try to tighten the tolerances with poor results) and who have had a slightly smaller than standard oil cooler installed (there is a shortage of the correct oil coolers.)
Another note is oil weight. The engine requires 60 wt oil for summer duty. It is a bit hard to find and some guys use 50 wt. There is approximately a 10 degree difference (hotter) in oil temp when using the lighter oil on a summer day. In the long run, this costs you money.
All of those guys had trouble on hot days with oil temps. All of those guys have had their engines fail annual inspections long before standard TBO.
None of them, however, have had inflight problems because of oil temps. It shows up mainly in how long your engine passes the annual. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I could be mistaken but I could swear I had an engine die due to radiator damage from over stressing the engine.
I may be a newbie to the game, but I'm positive I had Radiator damage. And it wasn't damaged from gunfire, because I initiated a dogfight and was thrilled that he couldn't shake me off his six. Not one bullet was fired at me, then suddenly my engine just Quit on me and a quick damage report showed Radiator damage.
'Course it was during an alnighter marathon of AH, so Fatigue might have got the better of me and I'm not recalling it correctly.
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Originally posted by Toad:
If the engine and accessory package (oil/air cooler, lubrication system, mixture, etc.) are operating "normally", sustained full throttle would most likely NOT result in a problem while in flight.
Ok, I see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Does anyone know, how frequent it was during WW2 that a plane's engine didn't operate "normally" but indeed started to overheat when run at full throttle? I know that atleast the late war german and japanese engines weren't too reliable. I'm sure that the allied designs had similar problems as well.
In my opinion, it would be great if this would be modelled into AH, requiring the pilots to pay attention to throttle settings, RPM and engine temperature. From a gameplay point of view this would be a huge improvement.
Right now the manifold and RPM settings are useless, other than lowering fuel consumption. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Camo
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Juzz,
Not to polemize here, but this is a game built around a sim. In fact, the "game" part is owed to the players inside. I'd like the sim part taken in all its seriousness, especially when engine management could give the edge in air combat.
It is hard to simulate a cramped cockpit against a roomy, ergonomical one. But automated engine management, ammo counters, pressurized cockpit, pilot fatigue etc. should be modelled.
We have plenty of gameplay issues, the hottest ones widely (and wildly) discussed. But I won't attempt to hijack this thread. Step by step, first engine management, then...
Cheers,
Pepe
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Guys the existing 100% throttle and WEP limits already take care of this for us. The maximum throttle setting and WEP time are both set to limits that in real life would not cause engine damage. If you are asking for engine damage to occur then you are either asking for an unrealistic sim, or you are asking for higher boost and RPM limits than what we can achieve now. Just beware of what you ask for, because a Spitfire at +25 boost will do over 5,000 fpm, and a P-47D with unrestricted boost (like Robert Johnson's) has the performance of a P-47M!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-30-2001).]
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No offense, Camo, but I wonder if you do see.
WEP is the most extreme use of power on a particular aircraft engine, yet Pyro's post points out that exceeding the time limits is absolutely no big deal.
Further, it points out that "it is no worse from the standpoint of engine wear to operate at Take-off power for one hour straight than it is to operate in twelve 5-minute stretches, provided engine temperatures and pressures are within limits. In fact, the former precedure may even be preferable, as it eliminates temperature cycles which also promote engine wear[/b].
So, you can takeoff at FULL THROTTLE and leave it there for an hour, according to this scan. That may even be better than Full Throttle for 12 5-minute periods in terms of overall engine wear (read "overhaul time").
Those of you who think any properly configured and properly operating WW2 engine would eventually overheat or fail in "normal" full throttle operation...for whatever reasonable period of time we fly it in the game.... are missing the point of Pyro's scan, IMO.
Now, if you want to talk modeling random failures of the engine systems, like oil coolers, that is an entirely different subject.
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Yep I do see it. I'm just trying to think how to get this engine damage concept working in AH, without having to bend historical facts too much. Since we know that an engine in good condition won't be damaged after prolonged abuse, I'm thinking of other solutions how to get the engine damaged in the game then.
I just read again some facts about the FAF 109 G-2 / G-6 engines. They were quite unreliable and often blew a crankshaft or lost their oil, even caught fire unexpectedly. While I don't want these kinds of random failures in AH, I'd like to see them in case you have overstressed your engine by running at full throttle for long periods of time. I'm sure that running an engine at full manifold pressure will increase the odds of a failure. In real life the pilots kept a close eye on oil pressure and temperature, as well as the manifold pressure gauge. I do that in EAW. But not in AH, since its not modelled at all.
Introducing overheating-induced engine damage might not be the 100% realistic, but imho it would be better than the situation that we have now.
Camo
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OK, let me see if I have this straight.
You don't want purely random failures in engines that have a reputation for being unreliable.
But you DO want some sort of random failures in these engines IF you run around at full throttle all the time?
Is this your concept?
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I think I understand what you mean now Camo, and I think that would be fun also.
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We need that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Think about all the stratobuffers flaming their engines.
..and others as well.
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Those who want the "minutia" of "cockpit management" in this game should limit themselves to a box sim. Perhaps MS Flight Sim # whatever. There is no need nor cogent historical imperative for this type of programmed malfunction inclusion. This is a game set to allow combat using WW2 aircraft. If you want to play with the buttons in the cockpit you are in the wrong game.
Leave the fediddleing thing alone or ask for something worth having like a new kind of plane or a reduction in "gaming features" like off map flying and carbombing.
The main feature of this game is combat with a "live opponent" in real time action, not pushing buttons in the cockpit. I fly for real and that type of activity is such a small part of the actual flying. Almost all of it is done on the ground. Magchecks....sheesh what drivel in a game.
Mav
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Toad, imho it would be best if all engines would overheat if you ran them at full throttle - not just the ones historically unreliable. But of course, if some engines were worse, they should be worse in AH as well. But as long as you kept the oil temperature in the normal range, all would be fine. But when the engine heat goes up to the red area, the likelihood of getting manifold/oil system etc. damage would increase.
<edit> So in a word - yes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) </edit>
Maverick, no-one would have to tinker with buttons any more than they have now. All that they would have to get used to is monitoring the engine oil temperature. If it gets too hot, you would have to throttle down to cool it, or risk engine damage.
Camo
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 03-30-2001).]
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seems like a simple compromise would be to eliminate the 'auto-off' for wep. so if you run it on wep it gets hot and if you don't pay attention to your gauges you burn up your motor. then it's a simple matter of time ran in the red increases odds of engine failure.
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There ya go!
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Capt apathy, great idea! And then, include the fact that the engine wouldn't cool down if you run at full "military power". To cool down the engine you would have to throttle down to around 70-80% or less.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo