Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: uptown on October 06, 2008, 07:21:10 AM
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I was caught low fighting another 109 and a K4 dove in on my six. I couldn't out turn, out run, or out climb him. I did manage to get him to use most of his ammo up in the scissors but he ended up getting me with his last 15 rounds :mad: The only way i know of to get the edge on him is in a dive but being on the deck took that option off the table.
So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck? :salute
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I was caught low fighting another 109 and a K4 dove in on my six. I couldn't out turn, out run, or out climb him. I did manage to get him to use most of his ammo up in the scissors but he ended up getting me with his last 15 rounds :mad: The only way i know of to get the edge on him is in a dive but being on the deck took that option off the table.
So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck? :salute
Theres a reason why almost every Mustang you see below 5k is usually running for its life.
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So, my question is: what could i have done to beat the 109 K4 in a low & slow dogfight on the deck? :salute
Given equal pilots... nothing. The K4 eats ponies and spits them out in a slow fight on the deck.
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fly better, using all the tricks you know.
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Theres a reason why almost every Mustang you see below 5k is usually running for its life.
Honestly there is nothing you can do, any decent 109 stick will stradle on you even in a merge and you are done with.
Even with a honest merge, co-alt 2k - you can neither outclimb, or out accelerate a 109, best you can hope is keep your speed
and just zoom on by and say No sir! Now if you have ALOT of E, you can grind the 109 down and perhaps hope he makes a genuine mistake
of blowing off to much E or in worse case scenario - reverse and give you a shot.
Best case scenario - hard-deck yourself at 5k cause once you have a 109k4 back there, best you can do is run and hope he
doesn't have wep for long.
I do believe both 51/109 are equal on wep on the deck, around 370ish maxed out, however
a P51 is faster without wep then a 109. Somewhere around 330 for 109 and 350 for p51.
However with 9 minutes of wep on a 109 don't think he probably all 9 minutes up, majority the p51's i run into
I hardly need the wep in combat since my climb, turn rate is enough to match a p51 without a problem.
Just remember if trying to out run a 109, might as well forget it actually - 109s outrun P51's clearly through 14k
with wep on.
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Pick speed up as long as you can and let him get as near to your six as you can without getting blowed up,i like to hold a bit of a right turn with nose level.Then hard break to the left and point your nose down (so you dont give him a firing solution) (make sure combat trim is off) with any luck the guy wont be looking for it or wont be fast enough to slow down ,hopefully this will leave you with a shot when he fly's by you,or as happens to me a lot he will auger trying to slow to match your speed.The 51 losses speed real fast with the full flaps and that big propeller.Use the unexpected when in a 51 most chumps expect you to run DONT! and kill the chumps that like to act like a parrot always saying runstang.At lest that is what i would do.(Saying you can do nothing is a loser attitude)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/smilie-gunkata.gif)
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(Saying you can do nothing is a loser attitude)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/smilie-gunkata.gif)
I didn't say give up. Of course you'd try every trick in the book and hope the other guy makes a mistake but as I said, given EQUAL pilots the Pony will lose almost every time unless the K4 pilot makes a grievous error (such as overshooting or augering as you suggest).
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That comment was not really directed directly at you,more like the thread as it was forming as a whole.Most people that answer this stuff dont fly a 51 or know how to.I find most people that fly em boom and zoom and know nothing else with the pony,yes it is hard to out turn or out break someone in it but if you put in the hours you can.And to say all sticks equal is a miss statement in the game, as you know most sticks are sub par at best,and that means tactics will get most of em (if you know tactics)and to live in a pony and go below 10 k you beater know tactics.And i think uptown was looking for anything to try not (your screwed bud) HA HA. :aok
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In an Ideal situation in any plane you don't want to be low and slow! You always want to try to have the alt advantage on your opponent! If this is not a possibility try to get some space and then start a shallow climb before attacking. If that is not possible always turn into the attacker make them go head on with you, so they have to risk damage to there plane too! At last resort stay and fight if you are at this disadvantage. Odds are you won't do very well if your in a 109k or a pony at low alts. But if you have no choice... well i guess you have no choice. Stay at higher alt with those planes while they can turn semi well that's not what they're made to do best. If you like burn and turn planes and that's what your into.... try spits or 109F's maybe n1K's and zero's. Planes in that category not to say it can't be done with the the pony or 109k it just takes allot more skill!
MeRcY
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That comment was not really directed directly at you,more like the thread as it was forming as a whole.Most people that answer this stuff dont fly a 51 or know how to.I find most people that fly em boom and zoom and know nothing else with the pony,yes it is hard to out turn or out break someone in it but if you put in the hours you can.And to say all sticks equal is a miss statement in the game, as you know most sticks are sub par at best,and that means tactics will get most of em (if you know tactics)and to live in a pony and go below 10 k you beater know tactics.And i think uptown was looking for anything to try not (your screwed bud) HA HA. :aok
So what are these tactics that make them turn better, accelerate better, or climb better?
Ill give you one piece of advice Uptown and thats to "get advice" from sombody who actually flies the Mustang well and not "chumps" who get killed in them about as often as they get kills in them. My guess is these experienced guys will tell you not to get low and slow in the first place. Trying to force an overshoot in a Mustang is about as desperate an act as I can think of. It accelerates so poorly you have no chance to rebuild your energy quickly. But thats what I see some "chumps" do. They often add stick stiring to it while screaming for sombody to come save them.
Even with flaps out its a lousy turner. But....maybe I dont have the hours in it to make it turn better. :lol
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To turn better in A p51 or anyplane for that matter! Use throttle,.... Chop it when first turning then slowly accelerate through the turn! That's one way. Also use flaps while doing that to ... turn flaps when first going into the turn then when coming out of the turn .... turn them off! Learn the different positions of the flaps and what degree of turn for which setting 25%, 50%,75% exc.... Also don't flat turn use angels to out turn your opponent like cutting there curricle in half. If you need help my call sign is mercy I'm in the DA and TA allot I would be glad to get more into it with you if you want too! Also Look on aces high website under training and see what others have written for help on this topic and talk to trainer if the problems still keep happening.<S>
MeRcY
P.S. and try always to stay vertical at first!
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I do believe both 51/109 are equal on wep on the deck, around 370ish maxed out, however
a P51 is faster without wep then a 109. Somewhere around 330 for 109 and 350 for p51.
Which 109 are you talking about?
The 109K-4 does 368mph on the deck with WEP, the P-51D does 365, and the gap increases with altitude.
Like others have said, if you can stay fast and use your superior roll rate you may be able to gain a snap shot with a well timed scissors maneuver. Otherwise, a P-51D is not well suited for a 1vs1 engagement with a 109K-4. For that matter, it's rare to see a P-51D not dive to safety against any co-alt 109, but the good 51 pilots will use the 109's heavy controls to their advantage if the 109 follows them down.
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So what are these tactics that make them turn better, accelerate better, or climb better?
Ummm you use tactics becuse you cant turn better, accelerate better, or climb better.And im happy with my k/d im low and turning in a pony unlike some that stay high and do nothing but bnz.
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The best tactic (before it even began):
(http://www.stockphototalk.com/phototalk/images/forrestrunningtojonathan.jpg)
But then again, the MA is like a box of chocolates; You never know what you're going to run into.
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A final thought I had on the subject is that a P51D can fly way faster then the 109k or most other planes in here! Keep it simple and keep it fast while flying it in combat. Other wise you libal to get caught and be sorry for not staying fast!
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A final thought I had on the subject is that a P51D can fly way faster then the 109k or most other planes in here! Keep it simple and keep it fast while flying it in combat. Other wise you libal to get caught and be sorry for not staying fast!
The K4 is faster than the P-51D. It climbs better, turns better both with and without flaps, accelerates better and has more lethal guns.
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The K4 is faster than the P-51D.
Yup. In fact, the 190D-9 is faster than the P-51D at most altitudes up to 22k ft. The La-7 is much faster up to 8k ft, and the P-47N is faster from about 14k and up.
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Fly a Jug and boycott our excuse for a Pony. The Jug ain't better than the K4 either, but it rolls better and packs more heat than the pony, and turns enough better and handles better while "wallowing" enough to give you a better chance compared to our AH Runstang Which is insane crap, as I have pointed out ad nauseum, but its what have to deal with. Also, the Jug occasionally absorbs a 30MM shell without loosing a wing or going pop, which will always comes as a surprise to the one firing the Mk. 108.
Also, don't loose heart because of the hype. There are many K4s in the MA NOT being flown by das ubersticks, so on any given day, you do stand a chance.
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Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.
Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.
Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.
Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.
So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.
But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.
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Ummm you use tactics becuse you cant turn better, accelerate better, or climb better.And im happy with my k/d im low and turning in a pony unlike some that stay high and do nothing but bnz.
For the last time WHAT are these tactics your talking about? So far youv only named a pure desperation move, which is what an overshoot in a Pony is. So exactly what are these tactics your alluding to?
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Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.
Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.
Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.
Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.
So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.
But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.
Most of the time, roughly 85% its flown by actual decent pilots - mainly they ignore the bad views and learn to fly it. Typical 13 yr old is
going to stay in a nice bubble canopy spitfire or p51 rather then fly a 109.
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Yip, the 109K4 will hold the cards in almost everything while it has WEP. But given that the 109s have twice the WEP endurance than the 51, its more likely you'll be dead before the 109's WEP runs out.
Without WEP the 109 looses a bit acceleration and speed, but compared to the pony without WEP, it still climbs and accelerates better (there is a spot about 10k where they're pretty close). The pony could disengage (aka run away) as its faster with the 109 out of WEP. But the 51 will run out of WEP first more than likely and once it does it will still have to spend at least 5 mins dodging the 109 at full noise till it runs out, so its likely you'll be mince before then anyway - given equal pilots and equal E stakes initially.
Sustained turn goes to the K4. Very high speed control effectiveness goes the ponies way, but in a on the deck knife fight that aint much help.
Since the K4 has vastly better acceleration than the 51 and a better top speed on WEP, the pony really needs an excess of energy to even try to dominate the K4. As it will not be able to replenish lost E as fast as the K4, its window of opportunity will be limited. Turn up with a excess of E, use a bit of it to try get the K4 while you're hot; and while you still have enough E to escape, it may be wise to do so if you want to fly home.
So given equal pilots and an equal E footing to start with and assuming the K4 pilot doesn't do something silly or fall for a cheap trick, the pony really can't hope to win.
But you never know the K4 may be piloted by a chump or even a good one who made a mistake which you can capitalise on. Fortune favours the bold.
Excellent advice!
But the 1 thing missing from this is the fact that all 109's and K4 the most dont like to turn right.
Ok to be fair,they turn better left.This can be exploited and used against the 109.Now implementing that in a 51 against a K4 is another topic in it's self
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For the last time WHAT are these tactics your talking about? So far youv only named a pure desperation move, which is what an overshoot in a Pony is. So exactly what are these tactics your alluding to?
Sorry, find a trainer if you dont know tactics,im not going to teach you how to fly.I can suggest some good books though if you would like.Fighter combat tactics and maneuvering by Robert Shaw is a good start for people with little skill.You might want to start their.
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Excellent advice!
But the 1 thing missing from this is the fact that all 109's and K4 the most dont like to turn right.
Ok to be fair,they turn better left.This can be exploited and used against the 109.Now implementing that in a 51 against a K4 is another topic in it's self
they turn fine to the right, just not going to beat a Spitfire in a right hand turn, I honestly would like to see a chart comparing the left/right hand turn radius.
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Sorry, find a trainer if you dont know tactics,im not going to teach you how to fly.I can suggest some good books though if you would like.Fighter combat tactics and maneuvering by Robert Shaw is a good start for people with little skill.You might want to start their.
I thought so. Funny who the "chump" ends up being aint it?
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<post deleted> Don't use that smiley here.
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they turn fine to the right, just not going to beat a Spitfire in a right hand turn, I honestly would like to see a chart comparing the left/right hand turn radius.
Maybe my choice of words weren't the best.I should have said roll into a turn??
The tremendous torque of the K4's engine must be tamed to get the most out of right turns.
It was only meant as a follow up to "the egg lifter's" comments. YMMV
:salute
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Interesting topic.
In the scenario described you have one choice.....turn and fight. Dive for as much speed as you can get. Even if you are 500 feet thats 500 feet of dive and can get you 20,30 or more mph. The secret is to use ONE notch of flaps. I repeat....ONE notch. You pop the flap out ONLY to make the turn then real it in fast. It is best to immediatly nose down, then pull up with one notch of flaps and begin a rolling scissor. This will foil any gun solution. Next dive again and go to flat scissors poping your flaps out on the turn then in for the strait out and out again for the reversal. Use a little throttle managment by cutting it on the up turn and gunning in down. You now need to look for the overshoot oppurtunity. That does not mean a pure overshoot as in he's going to fly by. It means a position of your tail where he is swinging wide. Everytime he swings wide you immediatly reverse with the flaps. You will either get guns or have a moment to keep going strait as he reverses back. This gives you seperation...enough to get a little speed back and a chance to make your turn back for a nose low merge.
You have to fly on the edge. You have to use that one notch of flaps to give your plane enough turning to maneuver around his guns. If at any time the K4 stalls by flopping over immedialty go the other way STRAIT and nose low dive if you can and get every mph of speed you can. IF you can get over 600 out you have enough time to make a front quarter merge. Every time the K4 goes up you turn the other way and go STRAIT.
If you maneuver correctly you WILL get enough seperation and speed to atleast give yourself a chance of a front quarter or even raking canopy shot in the scissor.
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ok so what i'm getting out of this, besides adonai saying i have the mind set of a 13 yr old :rolleyes:, is that the only weakness i can exploit is a right hand roll or turn, because of the torque to the 109K4s prop.
Maybe a whip to the right, then left, and back right and try to roll over on top and behind? One of the things I like to try to do is beat a enemy at his own game. It's not very smart, but sure feels good when I can pull it off :D I usually kill more 109s then kill me..except the K4. When I get into trouble i can pull away to build some E, but that don't work against a K4 :frown:
And Adonai sir, just because i fly a mustang don't make me 13, but says i have better taste in aircraft then you :D :lol
thanks for the input fellas :salute :aok
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Thankyou Agent, i was hoping to hear from you. I'll be looking for K4s until I get this figured out. :salute
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As far as 109 being faster I might be mistaken about that! But what alt are you talking about! If your taalking about all alts then Im mistaken and I gave bad advice on that! But It's still not abad Idea to get alt and run! I also thought that in history the p51d was faster! Especially at alt! Either way In either one of those planes I wouldn't try to stay and turn fight thats not what they are for!
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As far as 109 being faster I might be mistaken about that! But what alt are you talking about! If your taalking about all alts then Im mistaken and I gave bad advice on that! But It's still not abad Idea to get alt and run! I also thought that in history the p51d was faster! Especially at alt! Either way In either one of those planes I wouldn't try to stay and turn fight thats not what they are for!
On the deck at about 200 feet. If I have good alt it as simple as diving away. He'll have to pull out or compress. But on the deck at 200 foot or so they stick to me like glue.
The K4 is one of the fastest prop planes in the game and a P51 will not pull away. Besides, even if it could i wouldn't. Too many people have given the mustang a bad rap by running away. I want to find the K4s weakness and kill it. But so far i'm finding out that it don't have too many weaknesses on the deck.
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snip--
..... is that the only weakness i can exploit is a right hand roll or turn, because of the torque to the 109K4s prop.......
snip--
The tork is not a weakness as many seem to think so. In fact it is one of the great advantages the 109 has. The k4 in particular has a huge amount that can be used to great effect in stalling manuevers.
It is false to think that the k4 has "trouble" turning to the right. With the correct timing I can immediatly chop throttle, slam right rudder and snap roll to the right....jam throttle on and I have made an immediate right turn. It's actually a little more difficult to do this to the left because the tork will snap the plane over upside down so you have to use right rudder when turning left to counter act the spin.
The only time tork is a problem is on a slow climbing turn to the right. At the top when the plane comes to stall it will want to roll left. If you cut throttle you just tail slide. This only works against a K4 if you have tons and tons of energy and you are working a continuous looping rope.
On the deck turning right against a k4 is of no advantage at all.
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If you read my post and infered I meant torque was a weakness,well that wasnt what I said.
I corrected myself twice,1st it turns better left,2nd it is harder to roll right.Both I beleive to be true.
As agent stated the torque isnt really a bad thing and if used to your advantage it can be quite helpful.
:noid
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I also thought that in history the p51d was faster! Especially at alt! Either way In either one of those planes I wouldn't try to stay and turn fight thats not what they are for!
Been watching too much History Channel? :rofl
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As far as 109 being faster I might be mistaken about that! But what alt are you talking about! If your taalking about all alts then Im mistaken and I gave bad advice on that! But It's still not abad Idea to get alt and run! I also thought that in history the p51d was faster! Especially at alt! Either way In either one of those planes I wouldn't try to stay and turn fight thats not what they are for!
Both planes with WEP on the K4 is faster at every altitude. With WEP off the Pony is faster but the K4 has twice the WEP duration.
The Pony can out-dive the K4 but that doesn't help on the deck.
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Hey Uptown you have one of the best pony pilots in the game in your squad. ( SkatSr ).. While he'd probley tell you the K4 is uber to the pony, but Sr can do some pretty amazing stuff in mustang. Your definitely gone have your hands full if you get jumped by a K4. It's a fun challenge though. :rock. Until that lone spud destroys your plane :mad: I always had fun going up against Creaton in his K4 a few years ago when I was in the 412th. :aok
:salute Uptown
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Been watching too much History Channel? :rofl
Quite...and if the Germans had possessed the fuel and the pilots to actually make a difference with such uber-rides during the last 5 minutes or so of the war, why, the USAAF would had to have quit sitting on their hands and bothered to introduce the H-Stang a little sooner. ;)
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This is one of those situations where you have to be aggressive and force your opponent into making mistakes. Or die trying.
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Hey Uptown you have one of the best pony pilots in the game in your squad. ( SkatSr ).. While he'd probley tell you the K4 is uber to the pony, but Sr can do some pretty amazing stuff in mustang. Your definitely gone have your hands full if you get jumped by a K4. It's a fun challenge though. :rock. Until that lone spud destroys your plane :mad: I always had fun going up against Creaton in his K4 a few years ago when I was in the 412th. :aok
:salute Uptown
my squadies have warned me about fighting with 109s like that :lol I just can't help myself :devil
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Well regardless if I was wrong on the speed issue. Oh well :) But the tactics I told you how to do earlier in this post will work! I grantee it! I know a couple (granted very few) P51 pilot that can fly that plane like you wouldn't believe! Its not impossible it just needs to be practiced! Using those tactics I mentioned earlier will work in every plane! Just some planes do it better then others. Unfortunately other planes are better suited for the the burn and turn roll then the p51D
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Been watching too much History Channel? :rofl
The problem wasn't with German Industry making competitive, or superior aircraft. The problem lay in manning the fighter planes with experienced pilots. So not only didn't the Luftwaffe have the training machinery in place to keep qualified sticks in the air , they also didn't have the gas to adequately train them even if they did. But as for German aircraft designers and manufacturer's?? They did a remarkable job keeping very competitive aircraft available almost until the bitter end. Especially considering the huge bombing campaign on the German aircraft Industry. Both factories, component factories, and the fuel pipeline.
The Mustang was a remarkable airplane in that, like the P-47, it could fly so far, so fast, and so high. It could penetrate deep into German airspace and whittle the Luftwaffe down with attrition. The Pilots we trained in them had hundreds of hours of practice before combat while coming out of a training infrastructure that had almost no limitations.
But the attributes that made it so effective in actual war dont necessarily reflect in a computer game. As an escort fighter, a B&Z'er, and even a bomb trucker, I think the Mustang is effective. I have had an awful lot of fun flying it, even if I dont fly it much. Last week against a high ALT bomber mission I met another stang at 30,000' on totally equal terms. The long, long, long dogfight I had with the other Pony, almost to the deck, was probably the most fun Ive had in the game since I joined. I mean my hands were shaking after, know the feeling?
Be that as it may I couldn't imagine a worse plane to be on the deck with, against a K-4, then in a Mustang. Especially since the chances of a noob being in the K-4 are about zero. I'd much rather be in a corsair or a Hellcat in that predicament. Even a P-38. The truth is the K-4 is a very dangerous aircraft. Ive had hard times against them even when in a LA-7.
The guys who are good in Mustangs force you to play "their" game. When you have 2 good sticks flying as a team a pair of ponies can cause a lot of disruption at an airbase.
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Oh, I agree entirely Rich. My only caveat is that probably the fact that he war was almost over in Europe and American pilots were NOT facing a lot of opposition meant there wasn't a lot of pressure to update on the USAAF. If there had been enough K4s flying in '45 to make an impact, then the U.S.A. would have gotten stuff in the field sooner which would seem a lot more competitive in the LW MA.
The problem wasn't with German Industry making competitive, or superior aircraft. The problem lay in manning the fighter planes with experienced pilots. So not only didn't the Luftwaffe have the training machinery in place to keep qualified sticks in the air , they also didn't have the gas to adequately train them even if they did. But as for German aircraft designers and manufacturer's?? They did a remarkable job keeping very competitive aircraft available almost until the bitter end. Especially considering the huge bombing campaign on the German aircraft Industry. Both factories, component factories, and the fuel pipeline.
The Mustang was a remarkable airplane in that, like the P-47, it could fly so far, so fast, and so high. It could penetrate deep into German airspace and whittle the Luftwaffe down with attrition. The Pilots we trained in them had hundreds of hours of practice before combat while coming out of a training infrastructure that had almost no limitations.
But the attributes that made it so effective in actual war dont necessarily reflect in a computer game. As an escort fighter, a B&Z'er, and even a bomb trucker, I think the Mustang is effective. I have had an awful lot of fun flying it, even if I dont fly it much. Last week against a high ALT bomber mission I met another stang at 30,000' on totally equal terms. The long, long, long dogfight I had with the other Pony, almost to the deck, was probably the most fun Ive had in the game since I joined. I mean my hands were shaking after, know the feeling?
Be that as it may I couldn't imagine a worse plane to be on the deck with, against a K-4, then in a Mustang. Especially since the chances of a noob being in the K-4 are about zero. I'd much rather be in a corsair or a Hellcat in that predicament. Even a P-38. The truth is the K-4 is a very dangerous aircraft. Ive had hard times against them even when in a LA-7.
The guys who are good in Mustangs force you to play "their" game. When you have 2 good sticks flying as a team a pair of ponies can cause a lot of disruption at an airbase.
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The problem with Germany at that point in the war was that Hilter and the other powers to be were putting alot if not most of their resources into rocket and jet research and development. Germany had too many irons in the fire so to speak. :salute
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Push the limit and be aggressive its your only chance, and even then your SOL if the pilot knows something, ask tango or skat.
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To turn better in A p51 or anyplane for that matter! Use throttle,.... Chop it when first turning then slowly accelerate through the turn! That's one way. Also use flaps while doing that to ... turn flaps when first going into the turn then when coming out of the turn .... turn them off! Learn the different positions of the flaps and what degree of turn for which setting 25%, 50%,75% exc.... Also don't flat turn use angels to out turn your opponent like cutting there curricle in half. If you need help my call sign is mercy I'm in the DA and TA allot I would be glad to get more into it with you if you want too! Also Look on aces high website under training and see what others have written for help on this topic and talk to trainer if the problems still keep happening.<S>
MeRcY
P.S. and try always to stay vertical at first!
Ummmm this is not the best way to fight a K4 with a pony.
First .....NEVER I mean NEVER cut your throttle in a p51 against a K4. Especially if you are on the deck and below 300mph. And especially if you already have speed (over 300 mph) If you use flaps use ONE NOTCH only. I repeat ONE Notch and only when you are fast. Otherwise look for an exit to gain speed by GOING STRAIT. Use every bit of alt. That means if you are 300 feet shallow dive with wep as long as you can getting as much speed as possibe before you have to turn. When you do turn pop ONE NOTCH of flaps for the turn and bring that back when you go STRAIT again. The object is to avoid the guns and keep getting speed. If you do anything other than get speed you will be killed. Everytime the K4 makes a turn you turn the other way and go for more speed.
Second....DO NOT go verticle with a K4 on the deck if less than 300mph. Use flat turns to avoid the 30mm using that one notch of flaps. Get flaps in fast and get speed. Speed is the only thing that will save you.
Third.....Your oppurtunity to gain an equal advantage is to get seperation as fast as possible. If you can get the K4 to overshoot behind you meaning get some angle off tail immedialty turn into that and keep GOING STRAIT. Every time you do this you will get more seperation.
The K4 will attempt to get on top at every turn. The counter to this is to level out turn the other way and get more speed.
You will never be able to out climb the K4 on the deck so you must get speed...enough to out turn him with the one notch of flaps and still keep seperation going. Once you have some speed just keep it going. Now you can make SHORT yo-yo verticle turns to keep your speed up.
If things go right you should be getting good shots. If you get the chance to get away extend to 1.5k and come back as fast as you can.
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Been watching too much History Channel? :rofl
Maybe, but in the real world the Mustang wasn't the dog we have here. Our P-51D has porked flaps. Moreover, about the time the P-51D arrived, the 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel. With that, it was faster than the 109K-4 at almost all altitudes. Add to that; G-suits were entering service with the AAF, and were fully deployed by late summer.
My regards,
Widewing
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I posted in the wish list forum about a perked ords system.
I never though about G suits or higher octane fuel.
That would be a most awsome addition to the game.
G suites and high octane fuel...wow. But the catch is you have to have perks to use them. Think about it.
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Just curious here...
If the 109K4 outclasses the P51D in nearly every category, why is the Pony ENY value 8 and the 109K4 ENY value 20?
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For multiple reasons:
- Ordinance capacity
- Ammunition capacity
- Fuel time
- Ballistics
In all of these respects the 51D outclasses the 109K-4. I think the difficulty of aiming the Mk 108 30mm cannon vs the ease of aiming the .50 cal browning might be the biggest reason of all.
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The K4 is simply a better dogfighter than the pony. Only it's low ammo for the 30mm keeps it from being uber in the MA. Adonai somehow thinks that because it doesn't have the views of a pony, that 13 yrs olds fly the pony. He's not being honest. The K4 is a much better plane.
1v1, and low and slow, the pony loses any performance edge it may have had on the k4. If you are in a 51 and caught low by a k4 your best bet is to get aggressive and go after him.... out fly the guy in the other plane. At this point the slower the fight gets the better. The 51 pilot is in a bad spot but has one trick left. At absolute edge of stall speed, the pony is more stable that the k4. If you can get the k4 to slow down with you, you have a chance to kill him or slip away. If it comes to this, get all the flaps out you can to get nice and slow, then force the k4 to maneuver for a shot... if you do it just right and the k4 cooperates you may be able to get him to stall a wing or snap roll it from torque... then decide if you can convert this into a gun solution or saddle, or if you can get clean and slip away.
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Maybe, but in the real world the Mustang wasn't the dog we have here. Our P-51D has porked flaps. Moreover, about the time the P-51D arrived, the 8th AF switched over to 150 octane fuel. With that, it was faster than the 109K-4 at almost all altitudes. Add to that; G-suits were entering service with the AAF, and were fully deployed by late summer.
My regards,
Widewing
So the normal top speed of 437mph we normally see for the P-51D is in error?
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This is one of those situations where you have to be aggressive and force your opponent into making mistakes. Or die trying.
As I was reading this thread that was my thought entirely...
One of the key variables in the game is making the shift from exploiting the plane to exploiting the situation and if possible the other pilot. I'm far from an uber stick but even at my skill level I can usually force a good fight 1 on 1 in almost anything vs almost anything. Thats far from saying I can beat anyone in anything....but I can normally force a fight that demands a pretty good performance from the other guy.
I love the pony and the B is a favored ride when I put the A-20 in the barn. The biggest issue the pony has (IMO) is it's inability to regain energy. While it will hold E reasonably well once you bleed it you need air under the wings or your dead meat.
So in baseball terms your going to need to be a control pitcher without overpowering stuff. Your not going to beat the 109 even up so you need to manage the fight and work the other pilot. Based on that my comments are as follows....
1) engage aggressively and immediately if your at a disadvantage (as agent said 1 notch only). If the 109 driver is lazy and a front quarter shot is there take it (this is not a "HO")...make him think about what your doing. If he's any good he'll take the high ground, if he's really good he wont give you much room. If you get a B&Z guy then your probably ok...if its a "good" stick your hard pressed if its somebody like agent you'll feel like he's your proctologist awful quickly...
Going with your worst case scenario your dealing with an aggressive 109 flying the vertical obliques in a tight e to angles fight. To me the most critical aspect is trying to force a vertical 2 circle fight where you can maintain enough E and angles to pull up into his attacks and threaten him if he tries to go back up into an early vertical...once the 109 has gotten the high ground and solid rear aspect your most likely toast. If you can convert a 2 circle fight to a rolling scissors I think the pony has a decent chance . The biggest mistake I see in any plane is the decision to try and convert an inferior position (and/or plane) into a one circle fight because the pilot thinks that its the only form of "dog fight" there is. Once a 109 can force a 1 circle fight on a pony then the pony is dead unless he gets very lucky...
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The K4 is simply a better dogfighter than the pony. Only it's low ammo for the 30mm keeps it from being uber in the MA. Adonai somehow thinks that because it doesn't have the views of a pony, that 13 yrs olds fly the pony. He's not being honest. The K4 is a much better plane.
1v1, and low and slow, the pony loses any performance edge it may have had on the k4. If you are in a 51 and caught low by a k4 your best bet is to get aggressive and go after him.... out fly the guy in the other plane. At this point the slower the fight gets the better. The 51 pilot is in a bad spot but has one trick left. At absolute edge of stall speed, the pony is more stable that the k4. If you can get the k4 to slow down with you, you have a chance to kill him or slip away. If it comes to this, get all the flaps out you can to get nice and slow, then force the k4 to maneuver for a shot... if you do it just right and the k4 cooperates you may be able to get him to stall a wing or snap roll it from torque... then decide if you can convert this into a gun solution or saddle, or if you can get clean and slip away.
This is very good advice from Steve. He is one of the best p51 pilots in the game.
It is true that the p51 can fight slow with flaps in a rolling scissor. The problem is that the K4 can just point the nose up and go verticle at will. At speeds below 150mph in a tight rolling scissor the pony can keep up in the turns but the K4 can go up more and the pony can't. But if you force the K4 to go up on an overshoot I think you have better chances of winning if you point nose down and try to get seperation and speed. If the K4 catches you again before you have had time to get the seperation then hard maneuver again with flaps as Steve said.
But you don't have much time to keep doing this before the K4 rolls in for a shot. So your goal should be to hard maneuver with flaps and keep looking for any oppurtunity to seperate. A d400 shot is still pretty hard for most K4 pilots...even me. If you can get atleast d600 and even better d800 seperation you have enoungh room to turn into the K4...ie create a 2 circle fight (as humble states). If you can get the merge 2 circle fight going you can keep extending away a little each time the K4 turns.
I just don't think you should try to go verticle when your this slow. You will wind up with no options. Again its better to stay flatter and stay faster. When the K4 goes vert he will be stalling at the top at 50 to 80 mph and then stalling the wings to flip over and come down. This takes time. The time you need to slip away more and more. Just jink some to avoid the guns pass and keep it up. If you live past the first 2 or 3 gun passes you have a very good change of getting to a better position.
A few weeks back Steve and I were on diff countries and ran into each other but we werent paying attention to where we were and we did not know we were fighting each other...lol. I dove on Steve (p51) from about 3k. He was at 1k trying to escape from the hord after he made a kill. I caught him at 1k and at about 175mph or so. I was about to deliver the shot and he reelled out some flaps and flicked away causing me to go up and over. A close and slow rolling scissor ensued. He played it perfectly doing just what he said above. He was able to use the 1k of alt to keep his speed up enough to maneuver with flaps. I wound up overshooting several times and he took of some parts. Then it was equal because I was a cripple. The next scissor I couldn't pull out at the bottom (missin elev) after I had gone vert for a stall turn. In the end Steve gets me by auger.
The reason he won is because he didnt just keep flat scissoring and he didnt just try to purly out turn me either. He used shallow diving and yo-yo turns to keep me from getting a good shot and he kept his speed up just enough to allow him to use his flaps without loosing all his energy at once.
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So the normal top speed of 437mph we normally see for the P-51D is in error?
437 mph reflected one test using 100-130 octane fuel. There are other tests that show speeds in excess of 440 mph in the lower octane fuel. Running 150 octane, the P-51 was cleared for 75" MAP.
Speed:
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-level-150-2.jpg)
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109k-level.jpg)
Climb
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-climb.jpg)
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109k-climb.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Those charts hardly show the P-51 with 150 octane fuel being faster than a 109K-4. Rather, they give the appearance of their maximum speeds being about equal. The later 109K-4 props yielded speeds in excess of 450mph.
You have a point though. Our P-51D seems to be an early model without 150 octane fuel, in other words the worst representative of the series. There are a lot of aircraft in AH that are victims in a similar way: off the top of my head, the Spitfire Mk V and 109G-6.
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Those charts hardly show the P-51 with 150 octane fuel being faster than a 109K-4. Rather, they give the appearance of their maximum speeds being about equal. The later 109K-4 props yielded speeds in excess of 450mph.
You have a point though. Our P-51D seems to be an early model without 150 octane fuel, in other words the worst representative of the series. There are a lot of aircraft in AH that are victims in a similar way: off the top of my head, the Spitfire Mk V and 109G-6.
Look at the charts again. At low altitude, where we fight in the game, the Mustang is significantly faster. Look at the the climb rates as well.
Not only do we have the lowest horsepower P-51D, we have the fastest 109K-4 (452 mph) version. I'd like to see the 150 octane fuel available for a moderate perk price (just like certain bombs and weapons should be perked), but only for those fighters that served in the ETO (P-47D-25, P-47D-40, P-38J, P-38L, P-51B and P-51D. Likewise for the late mark Spitfires. Adjust the perk value based upon ENY.
I know that the flap issues will be addressed eventually. Those issues being some aircraft with horrendous flaps and others with magical uber flaps. Once that is aligned, I believe we will see performance more in line with war time reality. That won't end the whining, but it will make it a lot tougher to make a valid case.
I'm not sure I would want to see G-suits modeled. Given a 1g to 2g blackout threshold advantage, I think it may unbalance the game. It did contribute to the imbalance in the war, no doubt. Should a 109 pull 5.5g at the ragged edge of blackout, but the P-51 behind can pull 7g, it'll greatly effect the result.
My regards,
Widewing
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It is true that the p51 can fight slow with flaps in a rolling scissor. The problem is that the K4 can just point the nose up and go verticle at will.
Yup, you are right. The 51 pilot has to get some cooperation from the k4. If the k4 sees this move coming he can go up and reset at will, just like you mentioned. :salute
Fortunately, that low and slow pony is target that's hard to resist.
I have been told by people that I have surprised them by being aggressive; that I initally catch them off guard because all they expect from a pony pilot, even when cornered on the deck, is for the 51 to run. I think this works to a 51's advantage, even though it is not related to plane performance.(maybe this is just in my head)
I've gotten plenty of kills where a plane will half heartedly make a run at me then turn partially or even completely away because it seem like they assume I am going to run, only to have me turn and kill them/saddle before they know I'm back in. Also, there's been times where I've simply left; I'll avoid giving a gang a kill if I can help it.
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Oh! Very true! Those P-51s would run down the La-7. :D
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Oh! Very true! Those P-51s would run down the La-7. :D
*drools*
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I run down plenty now :devil
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I'm not sure I would want to see G-suits modeled. Given a 1g to 2g blackout threshold advantage, I think it may unbalance the game. It did contribute to the imbalance in the war, no doubt. Should a 109 pull 5.5g at the ragged edge of blackout, but the P-51 behind can pull 7g, it'll greatly effect the result.
My regards,
Widewing
Think of all the wings that will get popped off though. Worth the price of admission.
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Here is how I would plot the speed of our AH 109K-4 on that same chart:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2927976839_6d154e1384_o.png)