Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: A8TOOL on October 06, 2008, 09:02:04 PM
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I may or may not use proper WWII wingman tactics in game consciously but I'm always thinking of a way to drag and bag my opponants while flying wingman. I have read and gone over many different tactics but in this game it seems that none really work in this game. It may be because there is so much going on at one time with so MANY different types of aircraft fighting at so many different altitudes against each other.
1 vs 2 2 vs 2 2 vs 3 all the way up to 4 in a secluded area I find best for conducting wingman tactics. In a furball... you might as well farget abodit unless working the outskirts.
Not my favorite below but interesting.
The Thach Weave was developed by James Thach, to maximize the defensive capabilities and lack of maneuverability of the Grumman F4F Wildcat against the A6M2 Zero. The Thach Weave is a true co-dependent defensive formation, relying upon the wingman or flight leader to provide support for the pilot facing immediate danger. The formation requires a separation of about 550-750 yards abreast between friendly aircraft. In the event a bogey latches on to either aircraft, both pilots turn towards each other in order to have convergence. This results in the wingmans’s guns coming to bear on the aircraft pursuing the primary aircraft. Repeating this maneuver forces the pursuing bogey to either break off the pursuit or face multiple head-on attacks from the wingman. Which in fact is against all Geneva convention rules and you'd be at great risk of being called a noob by the other countries.....JK :lol
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Always remember. "No plan survives first contact."
Change your tactics as fast as the battle unfolds and you should do fairly well.
Roping an enemy prior to the merge with a common element tactic usually lets you dictate the fight.
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My favorite wingman tactic is roping. It's always gratifying to see a N1K punished for trying to hang on its prop firing its 4x20mm from 800 yards away. :t
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Tips to being Successful in Complex Engagements
In light of the new set-up in LW Orange I thought it would be nice to repost my tips on how to enjoy success in large engagements here in the Help Forum and invite other long-time vets to post on this topic as well. Hopefully this will help newer players and players new to fightering not feel so much like a flying scooby snack when fighting in large, protracted engagements...
Successfully negotiating a complex engagement is pure joy for me. It is what 'floats my boat'. The process itself is half instinct and half systematic pre-meditation.
There are a few key components:
1) Patience-On each shot and when picking your prey.
2) Discretion- Know when to cut n' run and when to go balls to the wall.
3) Flexibilty-Take in everything, targets of opportunity abound, adapt to your surroundings and the evolving combat situation.
4) SA-The more you can keep track of while engaged the better, friendly and enemy. Have a general idea of relative E states of as many cons as you can, predict and visualize their probable locations and vectors while not actually looking at them, really good SA is almost like clairvoyant ESP in this regard.
5) Gunnery- Hit hard and fast, killing quickly is a factor of gunnery, bad gunnery means slow kills. If you kill slowly your're going to get saddled, cherry picked and gang-banged no matter how good of a pilot your are.
I see alot of mistakes repeated over and over that cause otherwise skilled players fail to be sucessful in complex engagements, here are some of them:
1) Blow all of their E/options on the first con they come across.
2) Over-commit to one enemy, a furball is full of targets, don't put all of your eggs in one basket, your goal is to kill as many as you can and live...
3) Falling for what I call the 'suck-drag', the 'suck-drag' can be the horizontal or vertical version. In either version you are allowing the enemy to pull you to friends and/or blow too much E. Remember the runner actually has the initiative over the chaser, he is determining when/if/how/where you will be forced to fight.
4) Poor gunnery is death assured for the furballer, in a complex engagement if you cannot kill quickly you're going to get saddled, cherry picked and gang banged ALOT.
There are a few routines and practices that will guarentee some success:
1) Before Engaging always have an exit strategy and save the E to execute it if need be.
2) Don't get 'married' to one con, stay flexible and take out targets of opportunity as the chances arise even if it means letting a fish off the hook.
3) After blowing some E for a kill don't flush the rest down the toilet in an un-educated frenzy. Re-gain some of the lost E if you are under no immeditate threat, re-assess the situation and the ebb n' flow of the battle, get your SA back up then re-engage on your terms.
4) If you are in an E fighter give preference to enemy faster than you. If in a TnB plane give preference to enemy that can out-turn you while your E state is still high. This will enhance your survivability in your local fight area.
5) Be aware of friendlies around you, have some knowledge of what they tend to do. Just because they have a friendly icon doesn't mean they can be counted on to do the most predictable/desireable thing. For example, some players are always heavy and will never engage until they get their ord to target. Some players blow all of their E at the drop of a hat to swirl around on the deck in a death spiral with 5 enemy until they inevitably get shot down. Some friends are great for pulling enemy out of the pack vertically (roping) or horizonally (dragging). Knowing all of this will help you survive and cull the herd of enemy planes at minimal risk.
I hope this helps...
Zazen
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The Art of the Set-up
One thing that I've noticed thoughout the years is people tend to approach a fight with a stubborn single-mindedness. This is not necessarily a bad thing in a restricted engagement. But, in a complex multi-plane engagement, where flexiblilty and adapatability is key, it can be a serious hindrance and a potential source of great frustration. In a complex engagement, unlike a 1 vs 1, even when engaged you must maintain a 'reserve' of SA for your immediate surroundings, you must be vigilant and aware of what all the other planes in your immediate vicinity are doing, friend and foe alike. If need be you must be willing to disengage your current target and engage another target of opportunity. In situations where you yourself are engaged while pre-occupied you must know how to help others help you. This is what I will discuss here, the set-up, or how to help others help you, in other words wingman tactics and teamwork. I write this especially for the newer players, or for those new to fightering. Good set-ups will use those flying near you who are much more experienced than you to help you live longer, which in turn allows you to enjoy more proctracted fights and learn alot more quickly.
For the set-up to work there are some basic requirements. I will list them briefly here:
1) You must have the SA to be aware of the bandit before it's too late.
2) You must have at your disposal friendlies who have the SA to recognize a set-up.
3) Those friendlies must be opportunistic enough to take advantage of that knowledge.
4) Your set-up of the bandit must be done subtley so as to conceal the fact from the bandit that he is being set-up at all.
5) You must have the tactical awareness to know what to do in different situations, some set-ups only work in certain circumstances.
Here are the three most common set-ups and how to properly execute and exploit them. A big part of setting bandits up for teammates is communication, don't just assume everyone is on the same page as you, talk to them and tell them what page to be on.
The Drag 'N Bag
This is the most common set-up. The key to this is twofold.
1) Keep the bandit interested, think like the bandit. A bandit that does not have a sizeable speed advantage will not likely chase you for long. It is your job to make yourself an enticing fruit just beyond his reach. What a bandit is hoping for is for you to break, so wiggle, make it look as though you could be about to break at any moment, don't let your fish off the hook.
2) When you have a friendly coming to bag your drag, do not do anything sudden, but do something to keep the bandit more interested in his forward view than checking his 6, wiggle, pull up a tad to slow him down, just do not drastically change your heading. The reason is the friendly is likely holding alot of E and will not be able to maintain lead for a shot without chopping alot of E.
Hanging 'Em High
This set-up is quite similiar to the drag but is more specialized in its application and implies use of the vertical. This is probably the most beautiful set-up for your wingmen, if done correctly it's almost impossible to miss. Think of this set-up as a rope, but for someone else. There are some considerations for this method as follows:
1) The first key to this move is E. You must have the E to keep just out of arms reach, but like the rope, E states have to be close enough the bandit feels he has a chance, especially if you were to loop over the top. Pull him up very gradually at first, steepening your climb gradually until you are vertical. With gravity fighting against him he will be a very unstable gunnery platform even if he does have the range for a shot at the top.
2) The 2nd key to this move is timing. If E states are relatively equal between you and the bandit you must be reasonably confident your friendly will pick your fruit as it dangles on the branch before the bandit gets close enough for a shot. This is where communication comes in. Again, like the drag it is important to keep yourself attractive to look at, especially as your friendly is coming in for the kill, wiggle a bit or act like you are going to loop over the top to keep the bandit from checking his 6.
The Suck-Drag
This technique is very usefull against alt monkeys. Everyone has been in this situation, you have a con above you and some friendlies who is looking to BnZ. The key to getting this fellow is the suck-drag. An alt monkey BnZer has two vulnerabilities, excessive speed and only being able to attack one at a time. As you are sucking his E away from him your friendlies are jockeying into position to turn the tables on him as his relative E advantage degrades.
1) A high Alt BnZer operating without a wingman can only attack one person at a time. This provides an opportunity to degrade his relative E advantage without actually engaging him per se. Again, think like the bandit, what does he want to see? What will make him most likely to over-commit his E? I'll tell you what...an unaware opponent. So, give him what he wants, pretend you are unaware of him, but do it in a crafty way. The second you realize he may dive on you , start a very shallow dive, build-up E, forcing him to lose alot more alt than he thinks with his pass, he will be diving so fast he will not notice the difference. Don't dive steeply enough he can tell by aspect of your plane what you are doing. Just sit there until the last possible second, then chop throttle and break (never break straight up). Repeat this as necessary, every pass he makes on someone the others are closing the E gap as the bandit wastes his E in high speed power dives. This works best on bandits attacking from at or near the pure vertical.
2) Control compression from excessive dive-speed is enemy #1 for the BnZer. What is a lazy turn for a plane going 300, is an impossible black-out turn for a plane going 500. Use this against the BnZer to suck his energy advantage away. This works best on bandits not attacking from the pure vertical. In this suck-drag do not build up speed, keep in level flight or even a shallow climb, maintaining your best corner speed is most important. As soon as the bandit starts his pass, start turning, very gradually at first, tightening up as he gets closer and faster. One of these four things will happen:
a) He blacks-out trying to follow you without chopping throttle.
b) He compresses totally and either lawn darts or blows a HUGE amount of E before he recovers from control compression.
c) He aggressively chops throttle for the shot, but likely will not be able to match your turn, this burns ALOT of his E, you may even be in a position for a shot when he overshoots.
d) He aborts his attack at some point, burning some E.
The key to these moves is to make yourself attractive to fixate upon. The more fixated the bandit is on you the less he is checking his 6. The other keys are communicating with and being predictable to your friendlies. Don't do anything unexpected, if you must break hard, annouce your intentions so your friendly can be ready. For example: "Breaking Left 90 degrees!". If you are dragging a bandit within guns range, do not drastically change your heading with unpredictable panic moves, never vary your heading more than 45 degrees, by doing this you give friendlies dumping E with alt a chance to come clear you. Like the BnZer a friendly diving down to clear you cannot turn with a slow moving bandit for a shot.
Anyways I hope this helps. Anyone else feel free to add your favorite set-up moves. Happy Hunting!
Zazen
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Ask my squaddies...my favorite is to let my wingie soften up the target, but then get in trouble. I close..slowly..and let my wingie die and pop the enemy right after. It save alot of ammo!
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Tactics are very different in AHII because no one really dies. So even if you are shooting a con to little pieces he may well continue to shoot away at your wingman and even after his wing is off he will be like the black knight in the Holy Grail movie and keep trying to get another hit in.
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My favorite wingman maneuver is to sneak up behind them, yell "LOOK OUT FOR THE 262", and then fire several rounds past the cockpit. Needless to say I'm not a popular squad member of the 71st Eagles. :D
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My favorites are
The "Thatch Weave"
&
The "The Drag 'N Bag "
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I usually like to find some idiot willing to follow up my P-39 in the vert. I then have a squadie about 1k away to go for the kill.
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Ask my squaddies...my favorite is to let my wingie soften up the target, but then get in trouble. I close..slowly..and let my wingie die and pop the enemy right after. It save alot of ammo!
I really choose to believe that you are using humor; however I still find your post to to be in poor taste. :frown:
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I just weave back in forth in front of the baduns while Del, Soulyss, Mensa or someone from the 80th comes down and shoots the bad guys all focused on me. I figure being good bait is the best wingman tactic I can use.
I think Del got 3-4 in one pass on more then one occasion over the years.
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Ask my squaddies...my favorite is to let my wingie soften up the target, but then get in trouble. I close..slowly..and let my wingie die and pop the enemy right after. It save alot of ammo!
hhmm..i've seen that used............
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my favorite is to wait until Dh367th dives into a furball, then use him for bait :t
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My favorite is running like a little girl.
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+100 Zazen! Great tips
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Favorite wingman manuvers
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,249189.0.html
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I just weave back in forth in front of the baduns while Del, Soulyss, Mensa or someone from the 80th comes down and shoots the bad guys all focused on me. I figure being good bait is the best wingman tactic I can use.
I think Del got 3-4 in one pass on more then one occasion over the years.
Oh fearless leader is wise, while I normally don't take too much stock in scores and stats I think they do show an interesting trend.
Tour 103 my K/D was 4.62 and Corky flew 33:17 hours
Tour 104 my K/D was 3.6 and Corky flew 7:49 hours
Tour 105 my K/D is 2.28, and while Corky has 1:57 under his belt I haven't been able to wing with him once.
Strong is the Headhunter bait and switch manuver...
:)
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Not my favorite below but interesting.
The Thatch Weave was developed by James Thach, to maximize the defensive capabilities and lack of maneuverability of the Grumman F4F Wildcat against the A6M2 Zero. The Thach Weave is a true co-dependent defensive formation, relying upon the wingman or flight leader to provide support for the pilot facing immediate danger. The formation requires a separation of about 550-750 yards abreast between friendly aircraft. In the event a bogey latches on to either aircraft, both pilots turn towards each other in order to have convergence. This results in the wingmans’s guns coming to bear on the aircraft pursuing the primary aircraft. Repeating this maneuver forces the pursuing bogey to either break off the pursuit or face multiple head-on attacks from the wingman. Which in fact is against all Geneva convention rules and you'd be at great risk of being called a noob by the other countries.....JK :lol
These pictures were taken in the AVA during the BOA. Tull and I had just finished a 190F jabo run on a factory when Venom jumped us in a P51, he was very smart, kept his speed up the entire time and never targeted one of us for more than a single pass. This kept Tull and I killing our airspeed/options making sustained tight turns into each other to help support and avoid Venoms passes. Finally decided to boogie and lure Venom into making a mistake... the thatch shown below was spontaneous and almost perfect. Tull and I were a shade too far apart and Venom smelled the weave coming on-
P51 targets and starts a run on me:
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/thatch/thatch1.jpg?t=1213332959)
Tull and I turn into each other, me avoiding Venoms guns and Tull trying to bring his guns to bare
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/thatch/thatch2.jpg?t=1213333007)
Ven smells the bait and smartly pulls off, just out Tulls range....didnt get the kill but did force the pony to go defensive.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/thatch/thatch3.jpg?t=1213333032)
I’ve heard people say that real world tactics will not work in AH2 and I guess that’s why I posted these pics. The thing about using real world tactics in the MAs is that they require a lot of patience to employ properly. I had to learn a whole different style of flying which forced me to know more about the aircrafts limits/abilities and how far I can stretch the egg in that aircraft, rather than rely on my reaction time and gunnery skills. I find that now I do not have anywhere near the kill/death ratio or score I did when flying solo… I die a LOT more but I wouldn’t go back to flying “quake-style” or “fps-style” again. Flying with a wingman and using rw tactics that people created in combat situations to survive is much more rewarding.
My 2c
jappa