Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: iTunes on October 07, 2008, 08:51:53 PM
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Hey guys, I have my convergence set about d300 on the 109's(with the exception of the tater which I have at d225) Does 300 sound about right?
Still woking on getting used to the ballistics, as I do tend to grab a jug for porking etc and find that a few flights in the jug seems to get me all out if shape with the German ballistics
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I set all my cannons in 109's to d200 and mgs out at d250.
It's a single hub cannon. The conv represents the arc of the round. The farther you set it out the higher the arc is. Some will set it out to d300 or more thinking they won't have to pull as much lead and let the high arc make the hit. Your basically still hitting the target at d200 ish but your counting on the high arc to compensate some.
In my opinion this is bad because it causes a false sense of actual lead required at a certain speed and g load.
It is better to use d200 and learn to fly the plane in such a way to create your shots where high G load is not happening when you shoot. This has a lot of to do with the distance from which you shoot. The farther away your plane is from the target the more time you have to roll and shoot ahead of time. The closer you are the more G load you have to pull...but the closer you are the less lead you need.
I must stress that the "crossing snap shot" as I call it is how I kill 95% of my kills. The target is almost always inside d400 and mostly near collision. When the shot is taken the target is flying in front of and past my guns. The method involves calculating the angle of approach of the target and then rolling the nose to a place where the target will pass. There is usually no excessave G load and mostly I am sort of waiting there nose up or down watching the target move across my view. When the time is right....booom.
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try just firing the hub cannon only. IMO, the hub cannon and the MGs have very different ballistics, ROF etc, so if you're hitting with the MGs you're missing with the hub cannon - and you really want to hit with that rather than the MGs. If you fly with tracers on and fire both MGs and cans at the same time, your visual indication of where which rounds are going, and which is which can get confusing. Plus if you see a hit sprite and you're only firing the hub cannon, then you know its the good stuff.
Save the MGs alone for scaring tactics, and use the hub cannon alone for the kill shots.
YMMV.
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300 doesn't seem excessive to me. I have my 20mm and .50cals set to 250 in the 109 and open fire with both, i've not noticed any difference in ballistics at close ranges personally.
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Try setting the mg's to 50 shorter than the cannons. I think you'll find it helps keep them all hitting at the same spot.
However for most shots you are better off firing just the tater gun.
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try just firing the hub cannon only. IMO, the hub cannon and the MGs have very different ballistics, ROF etc, so if you're hitting with the MGs you're missing with the hub cannon - and you really want to hit with that rather than the MGs. If you fly with tracers on and fire both MGs and cans at the same time, your visual indication of where which rounds are going, and which is which can get confusing. Plus if you see a hit sprite and you're only firing the hub cannon, then you know its the good stuff.
Save the MGs alone for scaring tactics, and use the hub cannon alone for the kill shots.
YMMV.
You're talking about the 30mm armed 109's, right? I fire the mg's and 20mm cannon together in the 109F-4, G-2, G-6 and G-14 with success.
Btw, my gunnery improved with the 30mm once I took agent's advice and set it to 200 (you have it at 225, which is just as good). Setting it further out can actually cause you to miss some close shots because your shells will sail over the target.
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Try setting the mg's to 50 shorter than the cannons. I think you'll find it helps keep them all hitting at the same spot.
However for most shots you are better off firing just the tater gun.
i do the same works great for me
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You're talking about the 30mm armed 109's, right?
Yes, i should have mentioned that ;)
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I have everything set to 650 and fire all guns at once. Personally, I think it's all a matter of preference. I don't seem to have any problems hitting when I need to.
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Bomber-Hunting
I set the 13mm all the way out to D650. Use them as "lining-the-target-up" shots or simple "scare-away" shots. I set the Tater to D300. If you make your approach right and heading at high speed at the edge of the controls, shoot the MG at D800-D650. Once you hit D500-300, fire the Tater. If you miss, this means you were either going way too fast and you were shaking, or it's your aiming, not the convergence. If you happen to take rockets, pull the nose up about 2x or 2.5x when you would shoot the Tater at D500-300, less if you're closer, and fire. Don't be afraid of collisions, one rocket should put them out of their misery. Just watch out for drone warping.
Fighter-Fighter
I set the 13mm all the way out to D650. Like above, use them to line the target up or to get their attention. As for the Tater, put it D250, since you only have 60 shots, use them as close as possible and use 3 at a time (max). Don't worry about pulling your nose up, because at D250-D200, you're so close that you barely need to.
Good luck. :aok
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Ask any 109k4 "ace" what his conv is set and and they will tell you d200.
For 30mm anything over d250 is going to cause problems.
However if you only fly fast and boom/zoom like on bombers or only do rope moves then d300 plus might be fine.
Fellas I have tried it all...everything in the book flying the 109k4. I have more hours in this plane than anyone in the game at the moment. If you find anyone who has more I want to know who they are :O
I am telling you guys if you want to learn how to hit in a "typical" turning fight set it at d200 and learn to fly the "gun" to the target and get as close as you can. If you are inside d400 and firing at conv d300 plus your going to miss.
:salute
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I fire my guns seperately both are set at 600yds I dont think there is a magic number just get good at shooting with that setup
for big full profile snapshots it doesnt really matter what your convergence is you'll hit them anyways at that range.
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In the G2, I have the cannon set to 275, and the mg's set to 250. Seems to work out well for me, give it a try.
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I actually set everything to D200 and leave it at that, flying the 109s for over 5 tours now I would say this arch has worked out best for me.
Anything under 400 I fire all guns at same time, anything past 400 the 20mm only or 30mm.
Simply put - I don't waste ammo so I tend not to fire past 400 unless I have to, if I can I get right up behind and a quick 2 second burst is enough
to take down any plane aside il-2.
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not intended as a hijack......
i just flew the G2 in fso tonight. thankfully, there was no air opposition, as i've only flown the 109 once or twice.
how the HE#$ do you guys see out of the dam thing?? i could NOT find a view setup to see easily in this plane?
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not intended as a hijack......
i just flew the G2 in fso tonight. thankfully, there was no air opposition, as i've only flown the 109 once or twice.
how the HE#$ do you guys see out of the dam thing?? i could NOT find a view setup to see easily in this plane?
I use good SA to know where the bandits are even when they're obstructed by canopy bracing. Gives you a little more respect for those who are successful in the 109, doesn't it? ;)
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I use good SA to know where the bandits are even when they're obstructed by canopy bracing. Gives you a little more respect for those who are successful in the 109, doesn't it? ;)
although i respect anyone that is successful in any aircraft(as long as they're not hotards), yes, it does.
as we were RTB'ing, i was asking the guys how the hell they see through these things :rofl :rofl
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although i respect anyone that is successful in any aircraft(as long as they're not hotards), yes, it does.
as we were RTB'ing, i was asking the guys how the hell they see through these things :rofl :rofl
the views in any of the ribbed canopy air craft in A.H. is just trash. A.H. fails to realize that with a tiny turn or slide of the head the pilot could easily see around the braces.
its common sense, imagine driving your car but not being able to see around the windshield or window bracing? would leave an awful lot of guessing while driving don't you think?
to preempt the dumb retorts that would inevitably follow this type of statement of fact regarding A.H., if your in a turn fight, furball or being ganged and trying to keep your eyes on the enemy plane(s), the ground, trees, other in bound enemy ect, things (big things) can unrealistically disappear behind these braces. to slide views back and forth by using arrow keys while in tight turns and evasive maneuvering is unreasonably time consuming, unrealistic and detrimental to the pilot attempting to consentrate on seeing around the one post that always seem to align itself in a fashion that hides the enemy. A.H. view setups do not take into consideration the amazing flexibility of the human head and neck nor the ability to just move your eyes. this is a miserable hassle at times, and one i am certain that has caused the demise of many a cartoon air plane.
but........ i have found sort of a happy medium kinda. instead of running your views closer to the window pull them back away from it. move your view backwards and away from the braces makes them thinner and less obtrusive, but the better part of this is learning to use these obstructions to your advantage. how???? you might say, well ill tell you.
learn to use these braces as sighting and firing markers!!!! when an enemy plane is moving across your side view heading towards your nose or into your turn, use the braces as sights. it all works the same as looking forward to gage your shot. estimate the speed and angle of the enemy as it passes in front of the posts, gage the distance and deflection needed then tap the trigger.
the forward diagonal views are the easiest to become accustom to using, but the side views can be used as well with just a little patience and willingness to learn.
i believe this is a good strategy and that those who fly the German rides most proficiently tend to use this tactic. i believe this because i have watched pilots such as AGENT360 fire shots while their target was still out to their side and score hits without turning the nose of his plane to get a targeting view. now either every one of these occasions was blind B.S. luck or he is tracking, targeting and leading his enemy by looking out the side window. I could be wrong, but i have tried this with some limited (face it i just cant shoot straight) success.
well if it helps cool if not, what did it cost you to try it?
<SALUTE>
FLOTSOM
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FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.
For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.
I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.
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FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.
For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.
I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.
and this is why when i engage 109's i try to always stay below the angle of the leading edge of the wing on my side. if i dip under the usually these shots pass over my canopy. but not always, i have experienced more than one pilot wound in attempting to develop the counter move.
did i mention that on more than one occasion i was Agents victim in this side shot? well :)
<SALUTE> Agent360
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FLOTSOM, you are correct about how I track for shots. I have the pilot set all the way back and all my views set zoomed out as far as they will go except for the rear left/right. I have these zoomed in just enough to see the side of the tail.
For the cross deflection shots I will roll the nose early and be waiting for the target to fly a path that will cross my guns. I fire at about the outside edge of the forward side canopy bar...the second bar that is closes to the pilot. I use the forward side window pane as a general sight area making the target pass through this window. If the shot will be very close as the plane comes into view on the edge of my monitor I fire. If farther out I fire when the target is in the forward side window pane.
I also often roll over so the target is under me. I line up the lift vector and time the shot blind as he comes under and up past the guns. This is much more difficult but with practice and the right lift vector its an easy shot. One that is unexpected.
flotsom, and agent.....
NOW THIS IS THE KIND OF ADVICE THAT WE ALL LOOK FOR!!
think i'm gonna up a 109 in the ta, and practice what you guys are talkin about.
<<S>>
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flotsom, and agent.....
NOW THIS IS THE KIND OF ADVICE THAT WE ALL LOOK FOR!!
think i'm gonna up a 109 in the ta, and practice what you guys are talkin about.
<<S>>
Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s. ;) With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.
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Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s. ;) With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.
very good point.....but at least those of us new to the 109 will have something to go on
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I had a great virtual 109 pilot tell me to set all guns to 150 on the 109k-4. His name was Creaton :salute Do not no were he went but he was real good IMHO... Wooped me bad enough :rofl I have tried setting my melons out to 600 a few times to make my deflection less,but as Agent stated it really threw me off up close :aok It is amazing how high those melons go when set at 600 at 200 out they fly way over ur target..Try it sometime :lol I have good luck at the 150 mark I think its the 150 mark the lowest u can go anyhow :salute And great post
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Check out this thread, some helpful stuff on aiming the 30mm.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,238513.0.html
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Keep in mind that advice is specific to tater armed 109s. ;) With the 20mm cannon you need different tactics to set up the kill shot.
Well I was talking about 30mm but you dont need different "tactics" to set up the kill shot. I fly exactly the same way in the 109f4. I just fire more rounds with 20mm's because you need a few more rounds to make the kill.
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Sure you do. ;) In the 109F-4 you don't make it a point to wait for the target to cross the gunsite in order to put a snap shot on it. Naturally, you take snap shots if you have them, but it's preferable to set up a high % tracking shot.
For example, in a 20mm armed 109, I'm diving on a spitfire that's in a defensive break turn. I have my throttle reduced, and I spiral down onto the target in a slight lag pursuit, then pull lead for (hopefully) a good burst. The same attack in the 109K-4 I would do differently. Instead of a lag pursuit, I roll into a fairly extreme lead pursuit so that once I close the distance, I level my wings a bit to watch the bandit in the side panels of the canopy. Then I use elevator to line up a tater shot as he crosses the gunsite. It doesn't always go as planned, but lots and lots of my kills in the 109K-4 are along those lines.
I also think that the range from which you can score kills in a 20mm armed 109 makes it a totally different ball game. :D I know you've posted pics of 400 yard deflection shots with the 30mm, but even expert tater marksmen like yourself can't make those shots routinely, whereas with the 20mm cannon the merely competent can.
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Setting guns on 30mm to 150 or 200 would make sense as its a single shot with huge drop I have noticed since reading agents thread where I'm aiming at and although this works for me its only cos I'm used to it. If you think about it the drop of the 30mm is all gravity so unless you flying straight and level and your target is also straight and level having it hit where the pipper is is pretty much useless. If your flying down after a target at say 600 the convergence settings will make you miss because gravity is no longer an issue you'd have to aim below the plane to compansate same with flying up after a target, or even rolling you plane for a shot will screw up the aim. Hmmm I'm gonna make a gunsight for this :lol
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In case any of you are interested this is the gunsight I use. I made it.
(http://northwestflorida.com/aceshigh/agent_v15.bmp)
Right click and save. Put is in your aces high install directory in the "sights" folder.
The yellow ticks marks are for calculating bullet drop when taking dead six shots. They also work for moderate deflection shots.
The big red circle helps alot when taking high deflection crossing shots. I find it easier to see the big circle AND the target together when rolling for a snap shot. Also the big circle is helpful in that at about d200 the plane center fills the circle with a little wing on each side.
It is easier for me to pay attentions to the big circle rather than the small dot.
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I am concerned about the convergance that i always set my guns to. I usually set all my planes (F4U, F6F, P-38, P-51) to about D600. Is this too far?? Is this maybe why i am missing a lot of kills. I usually get within 800 before i start shooting and then move closer (To within D600-D400) It is usually effective but i want to get better. How should i be setting this up??
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Agent love that sight!!!!!!
i will definately be using it soon.
how do you make one?
i have had some ideas about designing some but dont know where to begin.
<SALUTE>
FLOTSOM
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Bloody hell agent thats the last time I announce my secret plans in public!! :lol I've been beaten to the punch!
My sight the pervemaster3000©® is below in case anyones interested note the 'ho zone layer©®' at the top allowing better views for the old ho, the yellow lines are tested by scientists for tater drop. :rock :rock :lol
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/10/17/2147751/pervmaster.bmp)
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I am concerned about the convergance that i always set my guns to. I usually set all my planes (F4U, F6F, P-38, P-51) to about D600. Is this too far?? Is this maybe why i am missing a lot of kills. I usually get within 800 before i start shooting and then move closer (To within D600-D400) It is usually effective but i want to get better. How should i be setting this up??
Unless its a dead 6 shot, anything over 400 is wasting ammo. Even if you do hit, the round has lost energy and there for doesn't do as much damage.
Setting convergence is more of a personal preference, and you'll get a hundred different answers. I set pretty much all guns to 325-350, and try to only shot under 400. The idea is you want your rounds to hit the target AT your convergence. In a pony you have 6 guns, 3 on one wing 3 on the other. Just for the sake of argument, each group of guns are 40 feet apart. When you shot, they start at 40 feet apart, converge at what ever range you set them at, then split again each group continuing more or less in a strait line. If you hit farther out than the convergence, your rounds are all spread out, same as inside, but right AT convergence it kinda makes one BIG hole :D
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Bloody hell agent thats the last time I announce my secret plans in public!! :lol I've been beaten to the punch!
My sight the pervemaster3000©® is below in case anyones interested note the 'ho zone layer©®' at the top allowing better views for the old ho, the yellow lines are tested by scientists for tater drop. :rock :rock :lol
(http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/10/17/2147751/pervmaster.bmp)
:O :O :O
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
:devil :rock :devil
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Bloody hell agent thats the last time I announce my secret plans in public!! :lol I've been beaten to the punch!
My sight the pervemaster3000©® is below in case anyones interested note the 'ho zone layer©®' at the top allowing better views for the old ho, the yellow lines are tested by scientists for tater drop. :rock :rock :lol
:lol :lol :lol
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Bloody hell agent thats the last time I announce my secret plans in public!! :lol I've been beaten to the punch!
My sight the pervemaster3000©® is below in case anyones interested note the 'ho zone layer©®' at the top allowing better views for the old ho, the yellow lines are tested by scientists for tater drop. :rock :rock :lol
Hi Pervert,
That thing you call a sight looks like something I used to draw in grade school and I would show the girls ending in detention .. :devil
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BaldEagl,
I have everything set to 650 and fire all guns at once. Personally, I think it's all a matter of preference. I don't seem to have any problems hitting when I need to.
I don't understand how you do it. Your convergence goes against the advice that 95% say (set it real close). I am not being critical I am praising as your hit% is a scary 12.19. :O
How do you do it?
Do you use an $10k 72" Widescreen HDTV? Uber macros? Aim bot? Incredible. Please educate us on your technique sir. :)
Sincere thanks,
WT
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BaldEagl,
I don't understand how you do it. Your convergence goes against the advice that 95% say (set it real close). I am not being critical I am praising as your hit% is a scary 12.19. :O
How do you do it?
Do you use an $10k 72" Widescreen HDTV? Uber macros? Aim bot? Incredible. Please educate us on your technique sir. :)
Sincere thanks,
WT
Yes, I know my set-ups go against the grain and most wouldn't agree with them. I've just learned to hit long when I need to even though most times I fire inside 400.
I think about it like this; if, in the worst case scenario, I have wing mounted guns, then they will be firing inward from that point no matter what the convergence is set to. That being the case, I don't see a big difference between converging at 400 vs 650; only with weaker guns (i.e .303's) or those with poor ballistics (i.e. Russian and Japanese cannons) IMO (which I always set to 400... Russian and Japanese planes and early Spits). With hub mounted cannon or cowl mounted machine guns the differences become significantly less.
So let's say I'm in a F6F and only hit with the left side guns. That's still 3 .50's nearly converged; plenty to take off a wing. If I'm in a Spit hitting with one side a single 20mm Hispano can do the trick. With a hub mounted 30mm like the K-4, it doesn't really matter where convergence is set. One hit, one kill. And the beauty is, if I'm tracking a con and can't close beyond 800-1000 I've got the best set-up possible to make him pay at that distance (I get several kills per camp at 1000 yards).
In close on snapshots I often see hits on the cockpit and see a wing coming off before the plane explodes. In fact, fuselage/wing combos are quite common with long convergences in close, and almost always result in either the loss of a wing or a pilot death.
Finally, and an important point, is that I've also got the best possible set-up for buff killing, which typically adds ~2% to my hit% over a camp. I learned to hit and kill buffs from 800+ in the FW190 using the 30mm's and I actually do better at distances with the 30mm than most. Having a chance to bring them up close and personal is just a bonus.
As I always say, I think it's just a matter of personal preference and what you're used to.
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The 30mm doesn't seem to converge correctly at 650. So, I wouldn't set it out any further than 400 even if you want to make long shots.
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BaldEagl,
Wow. Thanks for the detail. This forum and the quality advice such as yours makes this game invaluable. :aok
One followup question please sir. Do you set all your guns to the same convergence or span them out (P-51 example: 500, 475, 450)? Why or why not?
Thanks again,
WT
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BaldEagl,
Wow. Thanks for the detail. This forum and the quality advice such as yours makes this game invaluable. :aok
One followup question please sir. Do you set all your guns to the same convergence or span them out (P-51 example: 500, 475, 450)? Why or why not?
Thanks again,
WT
I always use point convergences. I view staggered convergence as almost planned spray and prey. I'll explain a little in the first paragraph below while I make a couple of other points in regards to convergence and gunnery overall:
With convergence set at 650 in the worst case scenario (wing guns), then at 1300 yards (beyond where you can even hit), the bullet spread is theoretically the same distance between the guns on your plane (bullets converge then spread back out). The shorter the convergence setting, the more the bullet spread at the same distance, so shorter convergences force you to not only come in closer, but also limit how far out you can be to deliver a fatal blow. This is also true for spread or zoned convergences, limiting the shortest set guns.
The final points I'll make as to gunnery are patience and conservation. Learn to get behind and stay behind your opponent and wait for the shot you want. As long as you can saddle up and can stay there it will eventually come. I'm not saying don't take snapshots if the opportunity presents itself but when you do, as with any shot, use short bursts on the trigger. If you're tracking, then burst, adjust and burst again. Never hold the trigger down longer than a second (two at the most).
[EDIT] Finally, take everything I say with a grain of salt as I AM opposed to the majority on this issue. It's just what I'm used to.