Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Serenity on October 11, 2008, 05:42:14 AM
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(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/Serene_One/Aces%20High/Untitled.jpg)
Direct hit with a 30mm and no damage. I would expect at least the rudder to be lost. Is it just me? Or is the B-26 a tad too tough?
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Look:
(http://mchpro.republika.pl/polspit3.jpg)
This spit took a flak hit in fuselage and survived. I'm not trying to say that what happened to you is right, I'm just trying to make sense of it. I guess there's an amount of damage before the vertical stab/rudder complex is tore apart. In RL you would have made a hole in it, but haven't destroyed it. It's something that's not graphically shown in AH, but just recorded, as only certain kind of damage are shown and result in an effective reduction of aircraft airworthiness. So, maybe (just maybe, mind you, I'm not sure), that's what happened, you did damage, but not enough damage to go beyond the threshold of damage that would trigger the loss of any part. Some times a 30mm is not enough, I just logged out of MAs after hitting a T34 with no less than 11 37mm shells with an IL2. And I got the kill because the guy towered out after I got his turret!
EDIT: here's what I mean
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder3.gif)
This B-17 was damaged by a FW190. Maybe your shell did the same thing, went through the vertical stab punching a hole in it, but without tearing the rudder apart or the stab itself. And since that kind of damaged is not graphically shown by the game, nothing seems to have happened. I think it's more a matter of graphical limitation of the game than a matter of damage modeling.
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The same thing happened in my 262 lastnight too, I peppered the tail section of a B-25 with the 30mm, saw at least 3 hit sprites and it still flew on.
I got a frigging assist on it too! :furious
Hahah.
No film, so it could have been anything really. Just seemed a little odd at the time.
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Gianlupo nailed it IMO.
You can see the hit, and obviously the tail would have taken damage. You might even be able to see some of that damage.
That does not mean the tail was damaged to the point of causing enough damage to cause parts to fall off, lose a tail, etc.
Plus your hit looks high, better chance IMO if you'd hit low on the tail closer to the fuse.
In real life the top of the fin would have been shredded, but good chance of stab and rudder hanging in there to return home.
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Doesn't even look like a "solid" hit to me, either.
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All of the American bombers are ridiculously resistant to 30mm shells. I have a good film where I take down a formation of B-24s in a 262. The number of hits they soak up is astounding. Unless you set the engines on fire, it takes around 10 30mm hits to down a 4 engine bomber in this game, and frequently much more. Historically, Luftwaffe tests determined that 2-3 30mm shell hits were usually enough to bring down a 4 engine bomber. That was the justification for giving up the good ballistics of the MG 151/20 for the hitting power of the Mk 108.
As for the pic, instead of a big gaping hole in the v-stab, in AH you damage nothing at all. :lol
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Looks like the bomber was just singed by muzzle blast. ;)
HONK!
Gooss
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30MM Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek)
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And another.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/Mk108.jpg)
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Ive always seen it with german 30mm that if u hit the same spot that the part falls off except the fuselage it absorbs like a brawny paper towel. Its got to be wing or tail hits to knock them off. Ive a hoed a spit 16 with tators and all they got was oil hits so idk anymore.
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And another.
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/Mk108.jpg)
Holy $!#@!. :eek: :eek:
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All of the American bombers are ridiculously resistant to 30mm shells. I have a good film where I take down a formation of B-24s in a 262. The number of hits they soak up is astounding. Unless you set the engines on fire, it takes around 10 30mm hits to down a 4 engine bomber in this game, and frequently much more. Historically, Luftwaffe tests determined that 2-3 30mm shell hits were usually enough to bring down a 4 engine bomber. That was the justification for giving up the good ballistics of the MG 151/20 for the hitting power of the Mk 108.
As for the pic, instead of a big gaping hole in the v-stab, in AH you damage nothing at all. :lol
Man, it's fairly consistent and feasible to down buffs w/ .50's. I don't waste ammo on fuselage and wings though... just wingroot to wingroot..... canopy. One advantage to the ballistics of the .50, I guess.
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"Does this look quite right to you?"
No it doesn't. There's no-one piloting that B-26! :O :noid
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TB, Bubi, no matter the 30 was a hard hitting cannon, prolly the best A2A used in WWII (IIRC Tony Williams said so in one of the articles on his website), but, on the other hand, no matter the B-17/B-24 were hard to shoot down. Take a look at the page from where I took the second picture:
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/ (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/)
I'm not saying that hit shouldn't have left damage, I'm just convinced that damage was correctly recorded by game but it wasn't enough for the game to display it graphically. It's a matter of graphical detail, not damage recording.
And, yes, I'd like to have a better damage displaying system in the game, something like the IL2 system (talking about graphics only!); and I'm confident we'll get hit, in the end, HTC already begun updating it with the redone planes. Last week I was flying an IL2 chasing tanks, I was (pleasantly) surprised when I took a hit on my aileron, turned the head to see it and, instead of the usual square gap, I saw twisted metal ribs coming out of the spot where the aileron should have been. Give them time, I'm sure they're working on this issue, too. :)
(Can you confirm that it's just a graphical issue, HTC? And, about the bill for my performance as your lawyer, I'll just accept a lifetime long free subscription, thanks. :D)
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TB, Bubi, no matter the 30 was a hard hitting cannon, prolly the best A2A used in WWII (IIRC Tony Williams said so in one of the articles on his website), but, on the other hand, no matter the B-17/B-24 were hard to shoot down. Take a look at the page from where I took the second picture:
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/ (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/)
I'm not saying that hit shouldn't have left damage, I'm just convinced that damage was correctly recorded by game but it wasn't enough for the game to display it graphically. It's a matter of graphical detail, not damage recording.
And, yes, I'd like to have a better damage displaying system in the game, something like the IL2 system (talking about graphics only!); and I'm confident we'll get hit, in the end, HTC already begun updating it with the redone planes. Last week I was flying an IL2 chasing tanks, I was (pleasantly) surprised when I took a hit on my aileron, turned the head to see it and, instead of the usual square gap, I saw twisted metal ribs coming out of the spot where the aileron should have been. Give them time, I'm sure they're working on this issue, too. :)
(Can you confirm that it's just a graphical issue, HTC? And, about the bill for my performance as your lawyer, I'll just accept a lifetime long free subscription, thanks. :D)
Yeah, I get what your saying. I guess I just expected that a mk 108 hit at the joint between rudder and vertical stabalizer would have knocked the rudder off. Not the who stabalizer, no, but at least the rudder. Oh well.
Ive always seen it with german 30mm that if u hit the same spot that the part falls off except the fuselage it absorbs like a brawny paper towel. Its got to be wing or tail hits to knock them off. Ive a hoed a spit 16 with tators and all they got was oil hits so idk anymore.
Ive had a similar incident with a P-47. I knocked him right in the nose with a tater, and just knocked out his oil. That makes perfect sense though, as there is a HUGE chunk of metal, namely the engine, between the nose and anything else.
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video was just for reference gian i agree with your point B-26 is an old version 3d model
doesnt show damage
heres a 38 that took a hit and still flys
(http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2849/8p38battledamal5.jpg)
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CC TB, I couldn't understand exactly why you posted that video! ;)
I guess that's not CorkyJr.... plane's in too good shape!
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Do we know what kind of weapon inflicted that damage on the 38? The water alone makes me think PTO.
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All of the American bombers are ridiculously resistant to 30mm shells. I have a good film where I take down a formation of B-24s in a 262. The number of hits they soak up is astounding. Unless you set the engines on fire, it takes around 10 30mm hits to down a 4 engine bomber in this game, and frequently much more. Historically, Luftwaffe tests determined that 2-3 30mm shell hits were usually enough to bring down a 4 engine bomber. That was the justification for giving up the good ballistics of the MG 151/20 for the hitting power of the Mk 108.
As for the pic, instead of a big gaping hole in the v-stab, in AH you damage nothing at all. :lol
Paging SD67!
I believe the major factor in ALL of this, is where you folks are "aiming/striking hits" on craft. Also, I find it easier to down buffs while in 262's, when coming in from the right of left (co-alt) or slightly lower (500ft and enough to take the top turret out of the situation).
While SD67 Friday night got one engine as I downed the first B-24, I got the remaining ones and made it to RTB while the left engine was smoking.
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TwinBoom: That's a 20mm I believe, and what you don't say is it totally crippled the craft. It had no flight controls in the wings. The pilot struggled to get it home.
The B-26s and the Lancasters are buggy as far as damage models go. If/WHEN they are updated to modern 3D models these damage systems will be re-mapped and hopefully will end up more accurate.
I have put 5-7 30mm hits into the same localized area of a lancaster tail (on film) and posted the film long ago and many other films. The Lancasters soak up 30mm rounds like a sponge. The B-26s have a few more weak areas (they will actually catch on fire -- lancs won't) but are super-resistant to 30mm rounds.
I was very disappointed with the titanium/steel composite construction of the B-25 models. This may be a trick of perspective, but it seems the -C is stronger than the -H. I have put multiple passes on low B-25Cs in a Fw190A8 with 4x 20mm guns and hit them repeatedly over and over before finally killing them (or getting the credit when somebody else finishes them!). I've put multiple 30mm rounds into them before and not killed them. In an FSO I unloaded almost all 120 rds of cannon into one B-25C, and then out of ammo saddled up on a stationary second target. He was fixated on his target below, so I sat there at 600 yards, perfectly steady, and unloaded over 1000 7mm rounds of ammo into the same spot of the right wing root. You get 2000 rounds. When I broke off my attack I was at 400 yards, the bomber had dropped, and started porpoising and major evasive actions, with no damage for my efforts.
ALSO: I've survived multiple 262 passes in my B-25Cs while taking numerous hits from enemy guns, winding up killing at least 2x Me262 jets that made passes on my B-25Cs. These planes are WAY too strong, damage wise.
Oh, and for all those photos of "flak" hits -- most of them were duds or were not flak rounds. A direct flak hit would vaporize or disintegrate the bomber it hit. The photos folks post are so stunning because these are the rare few that survived being hit. You don't see photos of the thousands upon thousands that never made it back for photos to be taken.
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Oh, and for all those photos of "flak" hits -- most of them were duds or were not flak rounds. A direct flak hit would vaporize or disintegrate the bomber it hit. The photos folks post are so stunning because these are the rare few that survived being hit. You don't see photos of the thousands upon thousands that never made it back for photos to be taken.
Hit it spot on Krusty!
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I guess if you want to kill bombers in this game, take a plane with .50 calibers. They don't seem to have any troubles taking down bombers in a single burst.
ack-ack
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I guess if you want to kill bombers in this game, take a plane with .50 calibers. They don't seem to have any troubles taking down bombers in a single burst.
ack-ack
Yup, if you hit them in the cockpit or a gas tank just a couple of 20mms will easily dispose of a bomber.
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Oh, and for all those photos of "flak" hits -- most of them were duds or were not flak rounds. A direct flak hit would vaporize or disintegrate the bomber it hit. The photos folks post are so stunning because these are the rare few that survived being hit. You don't see photos of the thousands upon thousands that never made it back for photos to be taken.
Unlike Serenity, I think you didn't get it, Krusty. Yep, those were indirect hit. From an 88mm shell! The damage made by a 30mm wouldn't be greater than that. Look at the first picture I posted, a 20 mm on a Spitfire frame. Or the second one, damage made by a FW190.
If the bombers could make it home with that kind of damage, the one made by 88 shells, they could withstand a 30mm hit on the rudder area without [edit]losing[/edit] airworthiness. That's what the pictures I linked were supposed to "demonstrate" (<--- lack of better word, I don't have a dictionary handy, right now).
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Yup, if you hit them in the cockpit or a gas tank just a couple of 20mms will easily dispose of a bomber.
I am for the wing root. A solid burst of 4x .50 cals is enough to remove the wing of any bomber in this game.
ack-ack
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"The Lancasters soak up 30mm rounds like a sponge."
Especially the tail. It acts like a force field... :P
"they could withstand a 30mm hit on the rudder area without airworthiness"
Generalization. It all depends on the exact location and chances of pressure build up.
What is so good in Hurri's fabric covered rear fuselage is that it does not hold pressure at all so it endures HE hits very well. Monocoque structures with small chambering (as in fighter's fuselage) are the best targets for HE rounds because the pressure can build up and shred supporting structures. The fuselage of a large bomber is not a good place to hit because of large expansion room and maybe with lots of vents in form of open side windows as in B17.
I doubt if a B17 could take many 30mm hits in its vertical stabilizer and continue flying because the blast could severe the vertical supports too. A 20mm HE could do just that as in picture: blast out the side plating with no damage to such massive supporting structures.
IIRC in Tony's Flying Guns there is a test made by Brits shooting Spit fuselages with a 30mm HE and something like 9 rounds were disastrous or fatal and only one "doubtful". Basically it means that 30mm works very well for expansion space of a fighter size.
In fact Germans concluded during the war that 50mm could carry enough explosive content to bring down a "Flying Fortress" (German general name for any large American bomber?) with a single hit. I've never seen a definition of where it needs to hit so I guess its "anywhere".
-C+
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I do think that B-26s seem far hard to shoot down compared to other bombers.
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Generalization. It all depends on the exact location and chances of pressure build up.
Never said otherwise. I'm just stating that placing a single tater on the vertical stabilizer, like Serenity did, doesn't necessarily imply an amount of damage sufficient to tear pieces apart from the aircraft: pieces shown in AH graphical engine, of course. In RL there would have been damage, but not enough to render it unflyable, just like in the second picture I posted in the thread.
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Well I agree to that. IRL if a 30mm explodes in the top part of B26's vertical stabilizer it is probable that the stab would only suffer minor damages with no radical stability issues (in game) except a jammed or missing rudder. Since we only have limited graphical output for damage (and damageable items) there is no way of knowing if the stab was damaged or not. That would be quite evident if a single MG round would knock off the whole stabilizer on next pass...
-C+
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I do think that B-26s seem far hard to shoot down compared to other bombers.
Agreed. Ive put upwards of 12-15 taters in B-26s before (Im sure its on one of my hundreds of films :rolleyes:) with no real result. MAYBE an oil hit at best, but B-26s soak it up. The same goes for Lancasters, but not to such an extreme in my experience. B-17s and B-24s however fall apart.