Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tac on February 16, 2001, 07:43:00 PM
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Im fed up with them. Cant reproduce them on purpose, they happen at high speeds, at low speeds, with flaps, without flaps, on low g turns, on high g turns, when heavy, when light, when nearly outta gas and outta ammo, when full gas, full ammo... im fed up enough to ask if this crap really happened in the P-38? Nothing ive read, seen on documentaries, pilot notes etc even mention this.
Widewing? Any light on this? HT? Someone?
Its like the plane at random applies some kind of mega air brake on one wing and makes it spin faster than a FW190 on PMS.
Excuse me now, I'll go beat up the neighbors kid....
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Every plane spins if you stretch their limits enough..
Is P-38 supposed to be some UFO that im not aware of?
though, only times I've managed to unintentionally spin P-38, has been with one dead engine.
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I would understand that if it was an extreme manouver or at really low speeds and high angles fishu, but this happens seemingly at random in any situation. Read above.
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I've posted this film before, and here it is again. Power on and off, with and without flaps. This has got to get fixed, along with single engine operation in multi-engine planes.
P-38 Stall/Spin film (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/article/p_38_spin_test.zip)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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I have to consider myself lucky one when I haven't met any unusual spinnings..
Just hate that I can't take deflection shots well in P-38; I pull the stick to follow target and I get mini stuttering in controls.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
probably just stick issue, though, other planes are good
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I used to fly P38 a fair bit several tours ago and it was about the only plane I would have irrecoverable flat spins.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Nexx
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"along with single engine operation in multi-engine planes"
What does this mean?
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anyone?
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Tac in real life you can taxi in a P-38 with only one engine. In AH you can't, the plane stays in place and spins in circles. Both the B-26 and P-38 have this problem, and it's FAR from realistic. That's why I said it needs to be fixed along with the P-38.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Cc, I hate that too. But the spins bother me more than single engine taxiing.... a lot, lot more.
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Hmm, no word from the Boss-man yet. Odd. Anyhoo this is getting to be a pain in the ***. If I sound pissed, I don't mean to; honestly. This is getting nuts, a P-38 with flaps could easily hold 100mph. How to I know? Zeno's training film shows a P-38 [Foxtrot prolly] at 100mph with an army spotter plane. Combine this with F4UDOA's proof that flaps are way off and you get an idea of the problem. Seems Pyro's test version is the version we should be using; it works perfectly.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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<hard kick upwards>
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I dueled the 38 in H2H a number of times last night for kicks. At no point did I notice unexpected or unusual spins; in fact, the 38 struck me as a very stable gun platform.
However, I think observations about single engine behavior in the 38 are spot on. Something's definitely wrong when I'm flying straight on one engine at 150ias and torque flips me into the dirt. That doesn't seem quite right.
-- Todd/DMF
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I cant say much about the unrecoverable spins as i have never gotten the P38 into a spin, and I fly it quite bit. It may be porked or it may not be, Ive never flown a real one and am not qualified to comment, but its far from the underdog everyone seems to make it out to be. You can take a lot of ord and if need be drop it and dogfight with almost anything. I like it!
I agree on the 1 engine waltz though, its annoying and even though im probably not qualified to comment on it either...its not right.
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"At no point did I notice unexpected or unusual spins; in fact, the 38 struck me as a very stable gun platform."
Its supposed to be. And it is as long as that bs spin doesnt show up.
"However, I think observations about single engine behavior in the 38 are spot on. Something's definitely wrong when I'm flying straight on one engine at 150ias and torque flips me into the dirt"
Single-Engine P-38 will give you a nasty pull, the engine is not in the middle of the aircraft and you have a dead engine creating drag on the other side, that flip will happen when you are slow and on one engine.. thats why I dont get slow until i get near my landing spot and then cut engine and glide land.
Waiting for some explanation for this or some evidence that this did happen in the RL 38. The system is muting me for 10 minutes a lot lately. =P
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Originally posted by Tac:
Its supposed to be. And it is as long as that bs spin doesnt show up.
The thing is that the spin didn't show up despite dogfights that got as slow as 80mph at times. Though the 38 stalled or refused to pull its nose up at times, I never once managed to spin it. It always felt very stable to me.
Just out of curiousity, which stick setup do you use? Are you sure it's not spiking on you and causing these spins?
Waiting for some explanation for this or some evidence that this did happen in the RL 38. The system is muting me for 10 minutes a lot lately. =P
Here's a nice link that demonstrates the properties of the 38 on a single engine. No physics here, but it does seem a bit easier than AH suggests. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html)
-- Todd/DMF
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Hehe, I know its not my stick, my old stick (dumped 2 months ago) was really spiky, this one is rock solid.
Plus ive seen other 38's go into that spin when im on their 6... its really awful, I can feel what the other player is going through (aka, "WTF???")
Ive spinned at 2k alt while going at 300 mph on a low G bank turn with no rudder, at 10k while at 110 mph, at 27k when initiating a split s while im 250 mph.. there seems to be no common factor here. Like I said, not been able to reproduce it at will, the damn thing just pops up.
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<punt>
*spins the thread around*
<punt> <punt>
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I've seen a couple of anomolies with the P-38. I almost always perform a carrier break pattern prior to landing. The P-38 is the only airplane that wanders at high speed in the roll and yaw axis during the break. This is not a complaint but an observation when comparing it to other planes in the AH set. I also posted single engine operation bugs at http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum6/HTML/002014.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum6/HTML/002014.html) Using the procedure I describe there, it is possible to reduce the drag on the dead engine.
If spins are occurring during single engine flight then its likely some aggressive maneuvering is being attempted. Rule #1 in single engine operation in any twin recip with wing mounted engines is not to turn or roll into the dead engine. i.e., if the left engine is dead, do not roll or turn to the left. This rule from my flight training can be applied here. With the P-38 in AH, keep the speed at 200 mph or higher when during single engine operations to minimize the risk of a spin. Use minimal control inputs, especially in pitch.
If you are in a fight with a dead engine, trade altitude for speed and keep the nose down in turns while turning into the good engine. Go for the head on shot. Unless an unseen bounce can be made, the transition to a maneuvering opponent's six will require a lot of yanking and banking along with speed dissipation - maybe too much to keep the "dead" wing flying.
The P-38 handling in the video was likely performed by a test pilot . He showed what the plane was capable of in the hands of a well trained pilot under controlled conditions. They probably didn't expect a combat pilot to do much more than exit a fight asap if an engine were lost.
MiG
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<kicks the bastige up to the top again>
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<punt>
dang my foot is getting sore...
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I don't see anything unusual in your film. You wanted it to spin and it obliged you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Aye, any plane can spin when pushed to below 100mph and ruddering hard.
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a 38, 100% undamaged doing a low g bank/turn will spin at 300mph, at 200mph at 180mph... sigh.
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I wanna know why when you take it straight up verticle and cut the engine it spins out insted of flopping over nose to tail like its supposed to, ive read stories about that and that manny LW pilots would not follow the 38 verticle because if they didnt kill it before it reached its peak it would flop head to tail and shoot them in the face.
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Wobble I can do that little flop with ease. Keep the power at full and wait until she gets just under 50mph then shove the stick into your desk. It'll pop nearly straight down with a little swing; punch WEP and off you go. The film I posted above is still there and still shows the problem. I intentionally stalled it, but the spins were something I didn't expect. All I did was hold the stick back to try and hold the nose up. It spun instead of simply sagging the nose. And I STILL say single operation needs to get fixed along with this!!
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"During the Battle of Britain the question 'fighter or fighter-bomber?'
had been decided once and for all: The fighter can only be used as a bomb carrier
with lasting effect when sufficient air superiority has been won." Adolph Galland
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/headbanger.gif)
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The P-38 (I've seen it once in the F6F too) seems to have a weird "secondary" stall. I call it secondary, because it only seems to happen after a normal stall.
You'll have more than enough flying speed, but yet you can't pull the nose up(stall horn doesnt sound, G-meter not above 2) and if you try to force it (still without any stallwarning), it'll flick over into a spin.
And no..I dont use combat trim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Daff
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<PUNT>
This crap is still happening. No word from anyone yet as to why/IF this happened. So much for the FM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Guess I should get used to this getting ignored, seems its more important to add more problems than fixing current ones. *shrug*
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I rarely fly the P-38, and when I have, I didn't experience any spin problems.
Your posts peaked my interest so I borrowed one from a pal and took it up and put her through the wringer.
Yes I was able to induce departure at any airspeed. However the recovery technique I found to be the easiest of any of the plane set. Simply return all controls (MS Pro stick, CH Pro pedals, both USB)to the neutral position, and she comes right back on her own accord.
I suspect you have a hardware issue.
Weave
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Tac here's a concept: Whiny off-topic (this belongs in aircraft or bug forum) threads that have "What the F___" in the subject title are not likely to get much attention from adult professionals.
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yeah and im sure all the others which have even posted data get any (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Weave, it does it on the 3 computers ive played AH in. Other pilots have seen it, I even asked the guy on my 6 that shot me down once if he saw me suddenly roll with uberwurger ability during the chase, he confirmed it. Even he was amazed a 38 could roll so fast at 200 or so mph.
Its not spins that worry me, 38 is easy to recover or even stop from entering into a spin. But its that initial 50% of a sping which happens in less than a second that will make you lose a fight, auger or spin to your doom (as your con turns into your 6) that really pisses me off. More so, it seems that once it happens it keep on happening.. even if you level out and fly for a few seconds on auto, the plane will do it again guaranteed, no matter how many g's or what speed you in.
I've read a boatload of stuff, even looked through P-38 training manual, any video on p38 I can get my hands on..in short, a LOT of stuff on it and none even MENTION this behaviour. If something that serious happened, you think it'd be reported eh? I'm still waiting to see what Widewing has to say, he may surely know or have access to a lot more resources than I do.
That is what i'm asking. WHY it happens in AH and DID it happen in RL?