Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Suave1 on April 01, 2001, 12:52:00 PM
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Panzer mg can blow the wing off a fighter plane with about a second of fire . Yesterday I shot a b17 down with the coax mg. Yet when I put a hundred or so rounds from the twin mgs of the ventral gunner position of the ju88 into a fighter it does no visible damage .
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The new MG34 in the Panzer was put in because of the Hispano's ability to blow up a panzer in one pass, no I dont have proof of this, tno TM55756 ballistics report- but can anyone find any other logical reason? Fix the Hispano- it has lead to BS buff guns and now BS panzer guns, whats next AH?
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hehehe I'll say one thing for ya Grun, you've got one hell of an imagination.
Point 1: Buff guns effectiveness at range was increased to help with survivability.
Point 2: You think the Panzer's gun has gotten stronger.
Conclusion: Both of these playability concessions were made because of the big bad Hispanos!
I just wanted to repeat that to make sure I had it right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) You silly bastard!
SOB
On a subject that hits much closer to home, those chutes have become much much harder to kill. This was certainly a direct result of the FDBs and their uber abilities at killing chutes and/or crashing into the ground next to chutes. I believe that the FDBs should be perked. I want to be perkie, especially if I'm gonna be called a cheerleader! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Yes SOB many many people have said that buff guns were given extended range and higher hitting power because Hispano planes would just sit at 1k or so pepper the buff to death.
The panzer MG34 issue isnt so clear cut, before the last version it was useless vs planes, as was case in RL, but recently it is able to rip apart a low alt plane doing a rocket pass.
Now I understand you are one of the AH blissfully ignorant cheerleaders who doesnt care about realism or AH actually putting an effort into improving itself when it comes to logical realism- which BTW could soon be disasterous- but even with that in mind do you consider it reasonable that a single 7.92mm gun completly destroys one of the toughest ground attack planes of the war with only a few pings?
If so you really arent an FDB but some sort of mentally retarded idiot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Imagine that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Ok now to ger serious, sorry bout name calling.
What other logical reason is there for the MG34s tremendous increase in ability vs aircraft?
It cant be vs bombers, since they either drop bombs from hi alt or dive bomb and pull out quickly.
It cant be vs rocket firing fighters or dive bombing fighters for same reasons as stated above- if a fighter comes close to rocket or bomb blast hell kill himself- so he must fire from longer range.
It cant be against GV or PT boats.
Now to Hispano fighters.
Before all one had to do to kill a Panzer in a Hispano armed fighter was to point at the tank and open fire then pull out at last second, then do this once or twicw again untill the tank was blown up. The tanks MG34 was accuratly modeled and was no threat to any fighter- as in RL. The Hispano fighter would just fly low over the battlefield picking tanks off at will.
Now with the new MG34 modeleing a single gun will kill any of these low alt planes. Even B17 bombers.
Actually this is a good thing in someways as anything that helps tanks vs the inaccurate Hispano is good, however we must understand that all this is, is a reduction of realism for gameplay, and they just add up.
The bomber guns are a perfect example of this. There are plently of arguments about them but nobody says that they are accurate, we all know they are reduced realism gameplay adjustemnts.
Is that what you want a supposedly high-end high-realism simulator constanly crippled
by seemengly endless realism compromises?
Honestly SOB and all the other guys do you want that, are you happy with that?
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Hell, when I'm in a buff, I'm much more fearful of a 109 or 190 coming at me than I am of a hog. It seems they usually have a better idea of what it takes to bring down a buff. Either way, in my retarded stupor, I don't have any problem with the current lethality of the buff guns. They can be killed...it just takes patience and sometimes a lot of luck. Of course, if their guns were weakened, that wouldn't bother me either.
On to the Panzer and it's SuperGun™ Could something of that small a caliber bring down a JABO, and if so do it quickly? I dunno...doesn't seem likely. But then, I haven't noticed a change in the panzer gun, either firing at it or being fired upon by it. The only G2A kill I've gotten with one since 1.06 was with an AP round from the main gun, on a 109 that was bearing strait in on me from a low angle. There's so much jumping to conclusions going on here on this BB, I tend not to believe what anyone says until HTC confirms it.
Unfortunately, HTC is 'The Man', and they're trying to keep us down, so they'll probably lie about it and keep it under their hats. <--sarcasm.
notlob <--palendrome for Bolton?
SOB <--would like to have an F16 to fly in the m/a because he hates realism; Thinks HTC knows how to make a good flight sim, and although they could use his input, they don't need his advice; likes to wear tight cheerleader outifts - preferably in hot pink.
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Your second post made some good points. Since you're all serious now, I'll tell you what I think. I like realism...the more the better. I don't, however, like having realism at all costs without weighing the benefits of it versus playability. If buffs are going to get eaten to death when flying solo because their guns are modeled realistically, then I think the added advantage that their guns currently have is just fine.
If the Hispanos versus ground vehicles are too strong from what they really should be, then I think it'd be great if they'd be fixed. But are they too strong against GVs? and why? Trying to find a valid argument against Hispanos in a sea of whines is next to impossible, which is why my first reaction to any Hispano-related complaint is generally sarcasm.
SOB
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 04-01-2001).]
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I wish I could calm down faster before posting a first response, im too quick to boil sometimes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Actually guys the problem is that penetration and target angles are not modeled. Check the thread on the Aircraft board titled "The great Tankbuster...The spit?" for info. Hopefully they'll fix it.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Can we also increase power of ShVAK and MG151/20 cannons? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
tho, I would prefer reducing power of Hispano to comparable levels with the others against armored targets.
Im still having a nightmare of my first C hog ride when I killed 6 tanks without a problem, disabled one who exited, 7th kill and then 8th with rockets (who amazingly didnt blow up on 3 rocket hits from close, but got hit so bad that he had to exit and got 'killed')
Funny that Hispanos actually *BLOW* the tank while rockets just does nothing or then blows the tank part by part.
I would imagine Hispano doing it part by part rather than couple of rockets.
Just wait till HTC gives us a cannon for our Ju88 A-4
The Proof:
(http://www.netsonic.fi/~fishu/ju88/ju88-19.jpg)
..and that wasn't the only Ju88 A-4 serving in The Finnish Air Force with a cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
also notice 1000kg bomb under the wing.
and more proofs here (http://www.netsonic.fi/~fishu/ju88/)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 04-02-2001).]
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I spent alot of time in Panzers the last TOD and I feel that the gameplay concessions in regards to the Panzers AA gun are spot on. Any Hispano or bomb carrying plane can kill a tank if the attack is done correctly. The unsuccesful pilots all do the same thing...they come in low and don't coordinate thair attack with other planes. Give me a smooth surface to drive on and a low plane comming straight for me and 9 outa 10 times the plane will be dead. The gameplay concessions that HT has inplace works kinda like the Darwin theory...and very well!
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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Single MG34s shooting down fighters are extremly unrealistic, with this attitude gaining ground in AH I wonder if one day we will have compromised gameplay adjustment FM-perhaps we allready do.
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So is respawning multiple times at a capped base...your point? If you are having a hard time killing tanks with a plane, just let the tank jockys do it for you. After all, it's the guy in the plane that chooses to attack and what method he uses. All a tank can do is defend it's self.
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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KewL d00d ! I want a badass minigun on my tank so I can kill those planes shooting 20mm depleted uranium HE shells at me . Hey after all if those guys want realism they can go play in the axis vs allies arena.
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Hmmm. A gun with a 1000+ rpm rate of fire, shooting headon at a non-manuvering target, all hits landing in the same relative space, using the 7.92 HMG round.
If you get shot down by a Panzer you weren't doing something right.
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MG34 has a 800-900rpm rate of fire, you are thinking of MG42 which did 1200-1500rpm.
The guns on the Ju88 are even faster rof than MG34 yet they cant do that. And there are more of them to boot.
No way to get around that its unrealistic gameplay compromise spurred on by an unrealistic Hispano model armor penetration . It already caused buff guns to go unrealistic and now MG34 light MG, yes light MG its really just like .30cal or Brit .303.
If you have any doubts as to low efectiveness of 30cal on moderen WW2 planes structure, consider this, from a BoB book:
A Ju88 was attacked by 5 Spit Is who fired over a total of 7000 rounds of 303 into the bomber, which survived and landed back in france.
Yet the single MG34 on an AH Panzer is able to shoot down a B17, destroy Typhoons doing a rocket attack, and god knows what else.
Who do you guys think you are benefiting by supporting such stupid unrealistic changes to AH, sooner or later HTC will get real arrogant and majorly screw something up, and they wont fix it- and you as a customer will suffer. Im not sayin HTC are bad guys, but they are only human- so when they see there is a gaggle of people who support their every gampley realism reduction no matter what, who says they wont go too far.
If AH was new sim just coming out where panzers were able to blow up planes with one 7.92mm gun, or with our stupid CV flak model or with any of the gameplay comromises we have- all of you would be laughing about its lack of realism on the BBS.
Dont forget wasnt AH supposed to be the high-realism sim? Wasnt that what set it apart from mainstram efforts where too much was compromised for gameplay and easy to learn FM, easy gunnery, easy this easy that. Is AH still decicated to this?
Whats the difference between gameplay compromised gunnery and a gameplay compromised FM, you want hit bubbles now?
Guys dont let AH get crippled by endless compromises, please its not too late- but the current permissive attitude to such things is troubling.
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I have to agree . The solution of tweaking the tank mg's to counter the overmodeled 20mm hispano anti-tank properties is malodorously kesmoid . Instead of making concessions to counter concessions made, and drifting farther and farther from realism, just do the right thing and fix the real problem .
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Just a note about the B17 V Panzer...I have never shot a B17 down with the AA MG on a Panzer...I have damaged one a bit though. IMO, any calibre of gun should be able to make a B17 go pop by killing the pilot with a lucky shot...it happens AtoA so why should it not happen GtoA?
Lars
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
[This message has been edited by MrLars (edited 04-03-2001).]
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I must make this clear!
It wasnt a pilot kill McLars, what we are talking about is the complete ripping apart of planes structure by a single 800round per minute light 7.92mm machine gun. This is extremly impossible, please educate yourself as to the total inefectivness of 30cal class weapons on modern WW2 airframes. These weapons were nearly useless by the time of WW2.
Nobody can say this is accurate in any way whatsoever, it is simply yet another realism gameplay compromise- any other new sim with such a feature would be ridiculed for lack of realism on the BBS. Imagine if you heard WB had MG34s ripping up heavy bombers and big late war fighters and AH didnt- wouldnt everyone on the BBS be laughing their bellybutton off at WBs roadkill?
Lets stop this now before it goes too far, lets support realism and logic in AH!!
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 04-03-2001).]
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well, why can't rifle caliber bullets kill pilot from 200 yards if hispano can kill a tank from 900 yards.. read; blow it up literally...
am I missing something? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Fishu:
well, why can't rifle caliber bullets kill pilot from 200 yards if hispano can kill a tank from 900 yards.. read; blow it up literally...
am I missing something? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes.
We're talking about the new ability of the mg34 on panzers to dismember aircraft with a short burst .
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Originally posted by Suave1:
Yes.
We're talking about the new ability of the mg34 on panzers to dismember aircraft with a short burst .
...and?
Hispano does the same thing with couple of bursts on tank.
so i dont wonder why wouldnt low caliber MG do that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
so, what i am missing here?
just underpowered MG151/20 and shvak is missing.. or then im missing the fact that hispano and low caliber MG is over powerful.
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Fishu the point of this thread is that they turned up the lethality of the panzer mg to the "ludicrous" setting to counter the 20mm hispano carrying planes instead of fixing the anti-tank ability of the hispano 20mm .
How this escaped you I do not know as it has been stated and restated throughout this thread .
As for the off topic subject of killing a man at 200yrds with a machine gun.. well who the hell is stupid enough to argue that that isn't realistic .
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Originally posted by Suave1:
Fishu the point of this thread is that they turned up the lethality of the panzer mg to the "ludicrous" setting to counter the 20mm hispano carrying planes instead of fixing the anti-tank ability of the hispano 20mm .
How this escaped you I do not know as it has been stated and restated throughout this thread .
As for the off topic subject of killing a man at 200yrds with a machine gun.. well who the hell is stupid enough to argue that that isn't realistic .
Geez.. nothing has escaped from me, im just wondering this whining now.
People was less concerned of Hispano blowing up tanks like tin cans and now when they can punch back same sort of power like it sounds to me, people are horrified.
killing a man and a pilot from behind possibly armored windscreen and some other armor are different issues.
bullet kills easily a man 200 yds, but pilot behind all those ... well
so, what causes so much whine now but didn't before when hispanos just blew poor tanks up on a pass or two?
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The tank gun to me seems fair as it is. You can hardly shoot a plane to pieces, unless you get a pilot kill, and that is what u get often in tank. Planes coming low and straight towards tank are vulnerable to pilot kills. Even that small calibre will kill a pilot.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I must make this clear!
It wasnt a pilot kill McLars, what we are talking about is the complete ripping apart of planes structure by a single 800round per minute light 7.92mm machine gun. This is extremly impossible, please educate yourself as to the total inefectivness of 30cal class weapons on modern WW2 airframes. These weapons were nearly useless by the time of WW2.
IF you are absolutly sure that that B17 was a virgin, then I would tend to agree with you. I have never been able to remove much more than an control surface from a 17 in a tank. However, I have had the oportunity to shoot many small calibre fully automatic weapons and have personaly dissassembled and old jeep with am M60. The Army has lotsa fun toys...even in the mid 60's.
Someone give you a wedgie or sumthin'?
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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Are you seriously comparing a B17 flying at least about 100mph to an as you put it "old jeep" sitting still on the ground?
PS You do know what a B17 is? -ok ok thats a bit of a cheap shot but you get my point.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Are you seriously comparing a B17 flying at least about 100mph to an as you put it "old jeep" sitting still on the ground?.
No, not comparing at all...just emphasizing the firepower of a small calibre/hi ROF gun...nothing more.
[/B][/QUOTE]PS You do know what a B17 is? -ok ok thats a bit of a cheap shot but you get my point.[/B][/QUOTE]
ok, ok...so it was a Melvin that they pulled on you, huh?
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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I see no films. Show me a MG34 taking a wing off with a short burst (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) As much as I tank I should be subject to this. I have yet to see in a situation where I do not expect it.
I have only twice seen the MG34 take the wing off a plane, both were due to multiple(and poorly executed) passes, aiming at the same point. Both were only a few weeks ago. The plane proceded to pull excessive G's coming around for a pass and the wing snapped off. I've killed alot of B-17's and B-26's in the Panzer, but every single one was with the main gun.
Btw the MG34 Did get upwards of 1000+ rounds after a 10-30 round burst when the cyclic rate went up, providing it was the version with the 600rpm and 900+ (varies)switch. Ironically ours was at 540rpm in pre 1.05, and has been adjusted during one of the versions. .30 cal fire was generally ineffective due to the spreading of fire in aircraft mounted weapons. But given the mounting of the 7.92mm AAMG's used on nearly every possible mount, and the areas of the plane that they hit, one should not expect to be invulnerable to them. The US retained the .30 cal AAMG for the same reason, as did the British in the .303. They were quite capable of downing a plane with concentrated stream of fire. They could generally stay on target much longer anyway, range adjustments allowed for 2000yrd plus firing lines. US .50 cal on the other hand, could hit as far away as 5000 yards, although 7200 was the manual-given distance.
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Cool that means my 109F4s 7.92 mm guns should rip up B17s no problem- hey why am I trying to argue against this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Cool that means my 109F4s 7.92 mm guns should rip up B17s no problem- hey why am I trying to argue against this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Umm.. I've shot down a B-17 with 109G2's 7.92mm..
(lol, in betas I favored spits 4x.303 over 2x.50, there was something funny which gave .303s alot chopping power)
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Um incase it needs clarfication, AAMG stands for Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun. In other words a HMG (Heavy Machine Gun defined by mount -- large crew or large mount, such as tripods and vehicles) mounting, on a stable platfore (IE Truck, AAA stand, or some other stable/fixed surface).
The essence in which a plane mounted machine gun works relative of a ground-type are very different. Plane mounted guns are subject to three plans of unstable movement. Ground guns aren't. You'd have to be closer than 100 yards in an Air to Air situation to get the same effect as 2000-1500 yards in a ground to air situation.