Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on October 14, 2008, 05:16:25 AM
-
I like the 14 sometimes though I do fly the other spits more.
When I fly the 14 I have trouble beating turn planes partcularly the Nikki. I take the battle into the veritical. Drag them up but still find it hard to get a shot and keep them off my six. How is it done?
-
fly it like a 109. Keep it high and fast, energy tactics should work.
-
fly it like a 109. Keep it high and fast, energy tactics should work.
Energy Tactics?
-
BnZ. Don't turn with the Niki. Keep your speed advantage.
-
Yarbles, I try to keep the engineers on my side. Use a plane how it was intended to be used maximizing its strengths etc and avoiding its weaknesses.
-
BnZ. Don't turn with the Niki. Keep your speed advantage.
I try to Bnz it but I have troubld avoiding the HO or an angle where it gets a shot. Once I am in a 1 on 1 how should I extend to get the advantage best and then how do I renew the atack. If the Nikki decides to be defensive its hard to get in there. :frown:
-
Tactic 1: Rope
Advantages:
-The spit has better climb with wep and the planes weights are similar. In theory this could work.
-Even veteran pilots can get greedy and fall for it from time to time.
Disadvantages:
-The N1k has lots of powerful cannon to lob at you, and the spit cannot take a lot of damage.
Final note, only do this if you have a bit more E than the n1k. He may not be a able to climb all the way up, but he will be able to hang for a while, allowing time to some shots. Also do not rope straight up, turn it into a spiral type rope.
Tactic 2: High speed fight
Advantages:
-Without flaps the turning radius on both planes are very close. Keep the n1k's flaps up and the fight could go either way.
Disadvantages:
-Dont rip the wings off, this is too fast.
Final note, Keep your turns level or slightly up hill. Most pilots will quickly give up alt for speed, if you save some alt, you can always gain speed quickly. You have a better climb let him fight it.
Tactic 3: The fight gets slow
Advantages:
-the spit can easily out accelerate the n1k. You can bug out at any time.
-Again the sustained climb rate will help you, fight up hill.
Disadvantages:
-The n1k can really out turn you here.
-Any crossing (like flat scissor) can end badly quickly.
Final note, You can make you speed back faster than the n1k. Remember this and if the situation get bad, extend and come back after 1.5 k or so. You are not running, but dont fight a losing fight. You need to know when you are losing, if you wait too long, the n1k may reach you with the cannons as you leave.
General:
-I love the rolling scissor. IIRC the spit has a better roll rate and its very friendly near stall. This can work of for the spit pilot in those slow, over the top, rolling scissors fight. You can also try to have a net climb over the rolling scissor fight, this is going to hurt the n1k in the long run.
Keep in mind, these are only my suggestions and every scenario requires different action to win. If I am way off, someone please correct me. I do not fly the spit often, but this is what I would do.
-
I struggle sometimes to get back on them in time from the rope but I will try that one first.
The climbing fast turn fight 2nd then.
Not sure about the rest.
Thanks
-
Reading this post is yet another affirmation that the Spitfire 14 doesn't deserve a perk price.
Basically, the idea is that you don't get kills in the 14 by latching onto the 6 of a bandit and following him through maneuvers until you get a killing shot, the way most people are used to flying the 16. It is not a point and shoot aircraft. Speed and climbrate are your biggest weapons, which means you will frequently be dragging bandits that you failed to kill during your initial attack. Get used to that; welcome to my world. ;)
-
You have every advantage over a N1K with a Spit XIV except turn rate, and without flaps even that is only a marginal advantage to the N1K. With flaps deployed the turn rate advantage to the N1K gets much larger. I'm not sure the 4x20mm's on the N1K are really much of an advantage over the Spits 2x20mm Hispanos and 2x.50 cals... ballistically the Spit's much stronger.
So the tools you have to use are speed, acceleration and climb rate vs. the N1K's only advantage of turn rate. I'm not sure about roll rate but I believe that goes to the Spit as well.
That tells me that about the only thing you don't want to do is get the fight slowed down to the point that the N1K can pop the flaps out (remember... flaps in gives the N1K only a marginal edge in turning ability... so little that pilot skill could offset it). Anything above that speed you are in control.
Considering that above flap speed you are in control, then winding up with a N1K on your six tells me that you have messed up your SA or your ACM a some point along the way. Before proceeding with explanations of how to shake the N1K once you have messed up, you need to analyse what put you into that position to begin with.
-
You have every advantage over a N1K with a Spit XIV except turn rate, and without flaps even that is only a marginal advantage to the N1K. With flaps deployed the turn rate advantage to the N1K gets much larger. I'm not sure the 4x20mm's on the N1K are really much of an advantage over the Spits 2x20mm Hispanos and 2x.50 cals... ballistically the Spit's much stronger.
So the tools you have to use are speed, acceleration and climb rate vs. the N1K's only advantage of turn rate. I'm not sure about roll rate but I believe that goes to the Spit as well.
That tells me that about the only thing you don't want to do is get the fight slowed down to the point that the N1K can pop the flaps out (remember... flaps in gives the N1K only a marginal edge in turning ability... so little that pilot skill could offset it). Anything above that speed you are in control.
Considering that above flap speed you are in control, then winding up with a N1K on your six tells me that you have messed up your SA or your ACM a some point along the way. Before proceeding with explanations of how to shake the N1K once you have messed up, you need to analyse what put you into that position to begin with.
Where would you start assuming I see the Nikk at say 12 Oclock Low
-
Considering that above flap speed you are in control, then winding up with a N1K on your six tells me that you have messed up your SA or your ACM a some point along the way. Before proceeding with explanations of how to shake the N1K once you have messed up, you need to analyse what put you into that position to begin with.
I have to disagree. When you're in a faster aircraft that turns worse, having a bandit on your 6 is routine. You've only messed up if you are not safely extending away.
If I met in a N1K in a merge and I'm in a Spit14, my approach would be to enter a sustained climb to gain an energy advantage, and then bnz the N1K until he's dead. Every time I make a guns pass, the N1K will maneuver onto my 6 o'clock position, but likely not closer than 800-1200 yards, and I am creating more separation every second. The only mistake here is missing with the initial attack.
-
dive towards him build your speed up, 99% of niki drivers will go for HO,
between 1000-800 pull left or right/ duck under but make sure he doesn't get any sort of shot, climb, spiral climb if you want to keep him suckered, nikis can come up a long way so don't be tempted to pull straight back down after him unless your sure he is going to stall.
You can tell whether or not he knows what he is doing if he A ) doesnt HO or B) pull the hardest flattest turn he can as you should easily be able to get above him in that situation.
If he doesn't follow your climb you better get after him and see if he has any skills. Either way you've gone from a 50-50 to a 70-30 in your favour as you now have an altitude advantage.
-
I have to disagree. When you're in a faster aircraft that turns worse, having a bandit on your 6 is routine. You've only messed up if you are not safely extending away.
If I met in a N1K in a merge and I'm in a Spit14, my approach would be to enter a sustained climb to gain an energy advantage, and then bnz the N1K until he's dead. Every time I make a guns pass, the N1K will maneuver onto my 6 o'clock position, but likely not closer than 800-1200 yards, and I am creating more separation every second. The only mistake here is missing with the initial attack.
Someone out of guns range on your six isn't a problem. In the extreme there might be someone on your six three sectors back. It doesn't mean you're in trouble. :rolleyes:
-
Where would you start assuming I see the Nikk at say 12 Oclock Low
That depends on how low but let's assume something reasonable like a few thousand feet.
First I'd circle at my alt to work my way behind him, then make a diving guns pass. Assuming he sees you and makes a break turn I'd pull up and over for my second pass, probably in a very high yo-yo to work into a lag pursuit position awaiting my chance to pull lead for a snapshot. If at any time it appears he's getting the angle advantage I'd zoom out and climb. You want to do this when he's at 180 degrees opposed to your flight path.
If he won't allow you to work behind him initially you can bet he'll pull the nose up and go for the HO on your opening dive. Fake the dive then pull up, wingover and drop on him as he stalls coming up to you.
If he just trys climbing to you spiral climb him out of E then pounce.
You hold all the cards, especially starting with an alt advantage. Just play the angles and distances so as not to allow him a guns solution.
-
yarbles we can do this scenario if you want in the DA.
I'll take the 14 and show you how to work the advantage and then punish the little Japanese niki pilot. ;).
I'm free friday 9-5.
-
fly it like a 109. Keep it high and fast, energy tactics should work.
About the shortest and best answer yet.
Mk XIV, performance wise, is very similar to 109 K4. Just look up past threads about flying the K4 and you'll have your answer.
-
About the shortest and best answer yet.
Mk XIV, performance wise, is very similar to 109 K4. Just look up past threads about flying the K4 and you'll have your answer.
Funny part of that the 14 cost perks and the K-4 is a higher free eny plane....hhhmmmm. Me tinks sometink is wong here/ :noid :t :devil
-
Funny part of that the 14 cost perks and the K-4 is a higher free eny plane....hhhmmmm. Me tinks sometink is wong here/ :noid :t :devil
Well, as much as they are close in performance, they are very different animals when it comes to armament. Here, Mk XIV has significant advantage. Not because of lethality (K4's 30mm is very potent), but superior ballistics and fire rate.
As such, if only one of these two has to be perked, it should be Mk XIV (I'd have both perked similar to F4U-1C, but it's not up to me).
-
BaldEagl,
I think the N1K2-J is a signficantly better gunnery platform as well. That isn't saying much as the Spitfire Mk XIV may be the single worst gunnery platform in the game.
2bighorn,
Neither the Bf109K-4 or Spitfire Mk XIV should be perked, IMO.
-
It's all about speed fellas. Spit14 is perked because of speed. Its fast..really fast. One has to learn how to use this speed as an advantage. In a very fast plane you can control everything.
But if you just start turning it like a zeek or something really turny you loose all your advantages.
Speed has many other advantages other than continually "extending". The turn RATE not the turn radius is where the secret is.
In more simple terms why is a jet better than a prop plane. Why is it that the speed of a jet makes it a better plane OTHER THAN RUNNING AWAY.
And as 2bighorn stated it is similar to the K4 in many ways. If this is so which it is then one must learn to use the speed as an advantage and not as an "escape" tool.
-
The Spitfire MkXIV is actually slower than the 109K below 24k. And above that it's not much faster.
IMO the Spitfire MkXIV is also very hard to shoot with, because of the insane amount of torque, and the fact that the engine spins the opposite direction of most planes.
-
Why would you be low on the deck in a 14? The 16 should be at the nikis sort of alt and not a 14 surely?
Or you could just hop over from the darkside and fly 109's! (S)
-
That isn't saying much as the Spitfire Mk XIV may be the single worst gunnery platform in the game.
How so? At medium and high speeds it is very stable and solid gun platform. Those who are snap stalling it whilst pulling for a shot should learn how to unload Gs.
-
How so? At medium and high speeds it is very stable and solid gun platform. Those who are snap stalling it whilst pulling for a shot should learn how to unload Gs.
I've had quite the opposite experience... I seem to be constantly fighting with it to make it point where I want, no matter what my speed/ AoA. And if I happen to have to adjust my throttle... well, I'm not hitting anything, that's for sure.
Perhaps it's because I use manual trim...
-
Observation and question.
Observation: This stuff about how to patiently work the N1K with your E building superiority is all well and good, but the thing is, the banditry hardly ever consists of 1 N1K below you. Instead of 1v1 tactics, I think we could all use advice on hordeVhorde tactics.
So the question becomes, how do you manage the Spit14 in a hordeVhorde situation?
BTW Anax et al, y'all are completely wrong about unperking the Spit14. Unperk it, and it will become as annoying to those flying high and fast in any er, um, "non hyper-modeled ride"-109, 190, Mustang, Jug, P-38, etc-as the 16 is to those who get low and slow.
-
BTW Anax et al, y'all are completely wrong about unperking the Spit14. Unperk it, and it will become as annoying to those flying high and fast in any er, um, "non hyper-modeled ride"-109, 190, Mustang, Jug, P-38, etc-as the 16 is to those who get low and slow.
Why not try it before we make that judgment? I'd like to see the 14 unperked for a tour and then decide.
-
Should be un perked. That way i could shoot more down
-
Why not try it before we make that judgment? I'd like to see the 14 unperked for a tour and then decide.
Methinks those of you who say this vastly overestimate how difficult it is to kill with the 14 (unless your modus operandi is attempting to turn with N1Ks, Hurris, and other Spits-how come we never assume that 14 drivers will be smart enough to get a little alt and use their ride to force high bnz planes like the Mustang or Dora to "dive or die"?) on the deck, as well as the importance of performance above 10K.
-
OK, guys, then I can learn more about fight with spit14 ;)
I can give you a advice as almost same as other advice, please keep alt and speed.
Don't turn near 2K from N1K. If you do any turn in 2K from N1K, I can have a chance to chase and hit you.
Don't climb straightly. Any plane which climb straightly is easy target for N1K. I can hit from D800.
Do your best and make a good fight!
:salute
-
I would give you my advice, but it wouldn't help much since I al I do in the 14 is go out, shoot the enemy, and somehow make it back home. :D
it does take the most skills to fly the Spit 14 than any other Spitfire in the game though. Don't be too surprised if it's a bit hard for you.
-
About once a tour I'll have 12 or so Pigs up in Spit14 to sweep over one of our alt hoarded nit bases. We come in 16-18K and everything starts running away or diving out when they see 12-15 Spit14. Very few stay and fight. By then the runners radio back that there is a stratospheric hoard of alt Piggies in Spit14 and the next hoard wave comes back at 20-30K. But we just climb the spit14 to that group and push them down. Lotta players in the game don't know how to fight above 20K, much less ever will.
There are three sad problems with the Spit14.
1. It sucks fuel like breached oil tanker<Exxon Valdeze>. If you have to fly a sector and climb to 16k for a fight, you better get your business done quick. Hit WEP and you can watch the fuel needle move on the dial. You won't get much time in it if you try to up with a small fuel load and a slipper tank.
2. The torqe can make it unstable at low speeds and get you rapidly in trouble diving at high speed. If you dont fly it frequently it can be very unforgiving if you get it slow and then want to fly it like a spit16. At slow speed any attempts with (cranking & yanking) will win you a stall or worse, the plane becomes unstable and slowly shudders through the first quarter of your manuver and stops.......When you dive in from your PICK PURCH if you don't cut throttle and even use the rudder as a break you can find yourself a lawn dart, or worse unable to do anything but collide with, or roar past your target and take a few rounds from behind while your controls are frozen.
3. At the end of the Pig's Spit14 high alt sweep, invariable everyone wants kills, and ends up on the deck where the fights are. I cant blame them, but the spit14 becomes fodder for spit<everything>, Niki, A6m, ....everything on the deck. Furballing on the deck it's a little less manuverable than the spit8 and is more unstable than the spit8 at slower speeds. Most players forget to fly it like a 51B down on the deck instead of a (yank & crank) spit16.
I vote to unperk the ugly beast.
I suspect you will see it become like the Bf109K4 after everyone gets tired of it not being the UBER bush whacker the spit16 is, but instead a low alt furball coffin. Eventualy it will be flown by a core few in the manner that the Muppets have made the K4 famous. The spit14 takes too much effort for the average pilot to like it.
-
I struggle sometimes to get back on them in time from the rope but I will try that one first.
The climbing fast turn fight 2nd then.
Not sure about the rest.
Thanks
You have to have a high area in this section...you have to know when he's running out of E. Watch closely when you see the plane wobble left and right, showing that it's ttying to use a little bit of rudder to stay with you. Then, kick your rudder and flop down on him. He should still be in the vert or stalled out and you will get a perfect shot.
-
I really don't enjoy flying the spit14, it's more of a chore than anything else. By that i mean when it comes to aiming, as others have said it's a horrible gun platform it's nose bounces all over the place frequently, requiring minute corrections Where as the K4 (as all 109s) is very stable, the nose goes where you want it. If i had to choose betweenone or the other my preference would be the k4.
-
I really don't enjoy flying the spit14, it's more of a chore than anything else. By that i mean when it comes to aiming, as others have said it's a horrible gun platform it's nose bounces all over the place frequently, requiring minute corrections
Sounds like a sim-specific thing. I just don't think nose-bounce was the horrible problem for R/L pilots that it is for sim pilots. They talk about missing by virtue of being out of range, missing because of too little lead, but never "The nose was bouncing so much I couldn't hit anything at point blank range."
I chalk it up to interfacing with our sims with a small joystick instead of a large control with actual stick forces, and it is a challenge for stick-crafters and programmers to overcome at some point.
-
Sounds like a sim-specific thing. I just don't think nose-bounce was the horrible problem for R/L pilots that it is for sim pilots. They talk about missing by virtue of being out of range, missing because of too little lead, but never "The nose was bouncing so much I couldn't hit anything at point blank range."
I chalk it up to interfacing with our sims with a small joystick instead of a large control with actual stick forces, and it is a challenge for stick-crafters and programmers to overcome at some point.
I it's the terminology that is different- I've seen several aircraft referred to as 'unstable gun platforms'.
-
Tactic 1: Rope
Advantages:
-The spit has better climb with wep and the planes weights are similar. In theory this could work.
-Even veteran pilots can get greedy and fall for it from time to time.
Disadvantages:
-The N1k has lots of powerful cannon to lob at you, and the spit cannot take a lot of damage.
Final note, only do this if you have a bit more E than the n1k. He may not be a able to climb all the way up, but he will be able to hang for a while, allowing time to some shots. Also do not rope straight up, turn it into a spiral type rope.
Tactic 2: High speed fight
Advantages:
-Without flaps the turning radius on both planes are very close. Keep the n1k's flaps up and the fight could go either way.
Disadvantages:
-Dont rip the wings off, this is too fast.
Final note, Keep your turns level or slightly up hill. Most pilots will quickly give up alt for speed, if you save some alt, you can always gain speed quickly. You have a better climb let him fight it.
Tactic 3: The fight gets slow
Advantages:
-the spit can easily out accelerate the n1k. You can bug out at any time.
-Again the sustained climb rate will help you, fight up hill.
Disadvantages:
-The n1k can really out turn you here.
-Any crossing (like flat scissor) can end badly quickly.
Final note, You can make you speed back faster than the n1k. Remember this and if the situation get bad, extend and come back after 1.5 k or so. You are not running, but dont fight a losing fight. You need to know when you are losing, if you wait too long, the n1k may reach you with the cannons as you leave.
General:
-I love the rolling scissor. IIRC the spit has a better roll rate and its very friendly near stall. This can work of for the spit pilot in those slow, over the top, rolling scissors fight. You can also try to have a net climb over the rolling scissor fight, this is going to hurt the n1k in the long run.
Keep in mind, these are only my suggestions and every scenario requires different action to win. If I am way off, someone please correct me. I do not fly the spit often, but this is what I would do.
Believe me this is how I fly a Spit 14, Its like flying against a Hurri-C - you wont beat it in a flat turn - just do one of the above - same for a N1k -
the Spit 14 is not a wonder plane like 262 or 163 - so get used to learning to beat what it "can't".
-
1. It sucks fuel like breached oil tanker<Exxon Valdeze>. If you have to fly a sector and climb to 16k for a fight, you better get your business done quick. Hit WEP and you can watch the fuel needle move on the dial. You won't get much time in it if you try to up with a small fuel load and a slipper tank.
fuel management is very important in the XIV as it does like a drink. however, get it level at a decent alt, over 280ish and wind rpms all the way back on 6-8 boost and you'll be accelerating nicely up to 350ish with ~50mins range :aok you dont need all that power to maintain level flight.
-
The spit 14 is underestimated and not used to it's strengths. The Spit14 is the fastest Climbing plane in the game with WEP atm topping over 5k/min and it's possibly the fastest acceleration plane above 10k+
I had a sortie were i was outnumbered in my 14. I was training a La5, a Spit 16, a F4u1A and a 109. I kept my energy up and continued to BnZ them. I took them all down and ran bingo on the 109 but i successfully landed back at home base with about 3mins fuel left.
The key to that engagement was SA, and E judgement. The spit 16 was 1.5k for from me the the entire town when i would extend into a sustained climb and the spit 16 could never catch me that way. The spit 14 is a very outstanding aircraft and is under rated because everyone tries to turn it like other spitfires, it's traits are sustained climbs, speed and acceleration.
-
The spit 14 is underestimated and not used to it's strengths. The Spit14 is the fastest Climbing plane in the game with WEP atm topping over 5k/min and it's possibly the fastest acceleration plane above 10k+
Spit14 and k4's climb rate are nearly identical.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109k4&p2=spit14
-
The spit 14 is underestimated and not used to it's strengths. The Spit14 is the fastest Climbing plane in the game with WEP atm topping over 5k/min and it's possibly the fastest acceleration plane above 10k+
No, the Spit14 is overestimated by those who don't fly it and not used to it's strength by many who do. The 14 is out-climbed by the 109K at many altitudes and even out-climbed by the Spit 16 at some. It's certainly one of the best climbers in the game, but not the best.
I had a sortie were i was outnumbered in my 14. I was training a La5, a Spit 16, a F4u1A and a 109. I kept my energy up and continued to BnZ them. I took them all down and ran bingo on the 109 but i successfully landed back at home base with about 3mins fuel left.
The key to that engagement was SA, and E judgement. The spit 16 was 1.5k for from me the the entire town when i would extend into a sustained climb and the spit 16 could never catch me that way. The spit 14 is a very outstanding aircraft and is under rated because everyone tries to turn it like other spitfires, it's traits are sustained climbs, speed and acceleration.
You could have done that with any plane... a 109, a 190, a Jug, a Pony, any Spitfire, or any other fighter... that was smart flying on your part, not insane out performance on the planes part.