Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Shane on October 16, 2008, 02:14:53 PM
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who am i to argue? still... awesome move @ 2:26...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8&feature=related
:noid
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Can do this in AH. There's two threads on it in the Aircraft and Vehicles section. See if I can find them..
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,222522.0.html
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I remember that thread. The maneuver depicted in this Dogfights episode is not the same as the one executed in those AH films. I doubt the former is even possible without fbw controls to prevent a nasty spin. I'm not saying the pilot didn't know what he was talking about, but that the History channel did a great job of messing up the visual interpretation.
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yeah i think hc hosed the visual representation.
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I remember that thread. The maneuver depicted in this Dogfights episode is not the same as the one executed in those AH films. I doubt the former is even possible without fbw controls to prevent a nasty spin. I'm not saying the pilot didn't know what he was talking about, but that the History channel did a great job of messing up the visual interpretation.
There's two different moves in that thread. Don Bryan's and Candelaria's. I think both were posted in AH format too. Tango posted his "flat plate" I think. Ah hell, I'll just go re-read the thread :furious :lol
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no way. :confused:
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no way. :confused:
Way :)
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who am i to argue? still... awesome move @ 2:26...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8&feature=related
:noid
I love all the wise comments on that clip at youtube :lol
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heh, sweet move
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I doubt the former is even possible without fbw controls to prevent a nasty spin.
"The P-51 is not a Flanker." :rofl
:aok
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Watch this film from my Mustang, use the fixed view, zoomed in with trails on...
From well over 300 mph to 150 mph in about 5 seconds. Easy to recover from as well.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/Mustang.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/Mustang.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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cool.
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We've seen that before. It's the same thing we were talking about near the top of this thread. It's not the same as what they show in the Dogfights clip.
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I bet if the germans saw the move the way THC represented it that they didnt stick around long afterwards.
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Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.
He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.
At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.
The 51B is over modeled???
http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf
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I'd take dogfights with a pinch of salt although I must confess I enjoy watching the show and hearing the old pilots storys :rofl I wonder if these manvouers where preformed with an actual simulator although I doubt it. I know they brought out a game based on this Kuma games I think? I've tryed a few of the manvouers from the show exactly as described in ah and il2 and never got close to any of them even switched the force feedback off my stick so i could snap it quicker no joy sadly :cry
this clip looks like a typical gang/pick session in aces high! :lol :lol
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XSUs7Np1nA
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"The P-51 is not a Flanker." :rofl
:aok
No but this is..Flanker-F :O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By43vSGo-BU
<S>...-Gixer
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When I watch dogfights I always say "yeah alright, I can't pull that move in AH2" :rofl
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There's two different moves in that thread. Don Bryan's and Candelaria's. I think both were posted in AH format too. Tango posted his "flat plate" I think. Ah hell, I'll just go re-read the thread :furious :lol
Are you saying Tango can do this? If you can find that post I'd sure like to read it. :salute
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Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.
He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.
At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.
The 51B is over modeled???
http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf
Interesting how his right wing hits the ground all the way up to the flaps with no damage, or maybe its my viewer and I'm just seeing things again. Wish my planes could do that. :D
Fred
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Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.
He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.
At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.
The 51B is over modeled???
http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf
You were not flying the Spit to its strengths and were cross-controlling it badly (must have a twisty stick). Once the flaps came out on the P-51, you needed only take the fight vertical.
My regards,
Widewing
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Gents,
First let me say that was a rather fun fight and actually not really my best flying. One thing I want to dispel first is my wing thru the ground. On my FE I was more like 40-50 feet in the air. Due to internet you saw me being a little lower. My wings come off just like everyone elses.
After that Widewing's assement is spot on. There are two things I jus cant cope with in a fight. The first is to get slow and then go vertical. If we go vert on the merge its not a strong point but I can manage. After we have slowed down its hard to get my nose back up. Having said that usually if I cant cope with the vert maneuver I will extend out and use the 51's speed to either disengage or remerge.
Anyone looking to beat me in a fight shouldnt have to fly crazy maneuvers. The 51 and any flying style similar to mine has a deep flaw and is sort of Achilles heal. Im not going to give it away but a look at 1 stat can give the answer. Its incredibly hard to fly that slow and use the instabilites to your advantage.
RAce
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Going into the vertical would have been the right move. I began filming after a few rounds of being tagged and continued what I was doing until damaged then tried to see if he could turn with me.
Internet lag...possible... but film does not show that. I've fought and filmed him again the next day using much different flying styles as he's said and the 51-B abilities were not repeated, he died in a good fight twice and flew as expected.
Could be some days your on and some days your not...I could say the same for myself.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/A8TOOL/ahfilm2008-10-1712-04-47-00.jpg)
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I'd take dogfights with a pinch of salt although I must confess I enjoy watching the show and hearing the old pilots storys :rofl I wonder if these manvouers where preformed with an actual simulator although I doubt it.
this clip looks like a typical gang/pick session in aces high! :lol :lol
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6XSUs7Np1nA
Great film....for some reason I really wanted that 109 pilot to survive and make a successful run for it.
In the end, I realize of course, he was much to dangerous to live. :(
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In any fight (for me) where I am up against a plane with superior turning ability I am hoping to get the fight I want. Generally that's both planes going down hill with many changes in direction. In a straight flat turn I cant begin to compete with a Spitfire or N1K. However if you start rolling and scissoring I can use the the low speed qualities of the flaps and skill. Ironically some of the new pilots give me the most trouble.
Flat turn luftberries on the deck give me a quick end. I am sure you noticed in that fight you were consistently faster than me. When you take fast (but with a larger radius) turns and reverse you end up with a slower less maneuverable plane turning inside of you. I would rather face a Spit 16 in the 51B than a Spit 5-8 or 9. Why? Its really easy to be too fast in a 16 and its why I will point new fliers to the earlier models.
Sorry but the internet issues can cause 3-4 times that much difference in what you see. Krusty, Widewing, Lushce or any of the long time players who have tested this can elaborate if they want. I wish I had filmed it for many reasons and now one is to show you. I might have scratched the paint (I think I might have drug a wing to be honest) but I don't like even a hint of any sort of unethical activities.
The 51 is a great bird and both are capable of incredible feats of flying. I wish I could show some of them but I just dont film alot. In the end its spending time learning how to make her tic and knowing what the plane wants. People dont understand how you can flip (180 roll) so fast. Its simple....practice. If its under modeled I cant wait til its fixed!
Race
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I loooove the Pony B, it's been my favorite plane since the first time I've flown it. Low-alt in a B-model is like being 25k in a D-model, just very well mannered. :aok
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Oh dear. Not this thread again. :D I hope this doesn't go 7 pages like the last time!
Are you saying Tango can do this? If you can find that post I'd sure like to read it. :salute
Uptown- scotch mentioned the thread above. Widewing posted a move. I posted what I call the "flat plate". I'm not sure either are "exactly" Candelaria's move depicted in Dogfights but I wouldn't take the CGI in the show too literally anyhow.
Here are couple of the animated gif's I posted in that thread:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/films/flatplate1.gif)
(http://brauncomustangs.org/films/flatplate3.gif)
For my maneuver, it came about from analyzing various aspects of aerodynamics modelled in AH and spending time thinking about various energy dumping maneuvers that I could perform in a Mustang in AH. The flat plate is not something I have used very often in the MA and when I do it's usually a last ditch maneuver or when I'm just messing around and don't care about the stakes ;). You need both enough speed to do it as well as enough altitude to recover.
At any rate it leaves you with little energy at the end of the maneuver which means you've just severely limited your options. On top of that it's like waiting for paint to dry for the Mustang to regain kinetic energy compared to alot of other aircraft because of it's underpowered engine compared to others. It's a neat trick. It can be useful but those opportunities are rare in my book because of the disadvantages.
I haven't showed our squad how to do it because of it's limited usability but I'll post something in the 412th forum in the next week or so for ya if you're interested.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Now that's a sweet move dtango. It looks much more like the dogfights movie than anything else I've seen. Care to share? :pray
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Now that's a sweet move dtango. It looks much more like the dogfights movie than anything else I've seen. Care to share? :pray
It's exactly the same as I did.... Stick forward to the left, full right rudder.
My regards,
Widewing
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Except it looks like he pulled up instead of pushing forward. Pretty neat little move, might have to give it a try! Can definately see why the pilot in THC's Dogfight show said that his head hit the canopy! :aok
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what the hell kinda move was that.
that was so sweet... WOW :aok
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It's exactly the same as I did.... Stick forward to the left, full right rudder.
My regards,
Widewing
Well I execute the flat plate differently. It's also more involved than that for me. :)
Anax - I haven't even explained it to my own squaddies so I owe them the explanation first. I'll give you a hint though: if you study the concepts of aircraft stability carefully it'll become obvious the type of forces being applied on the aircraft to make it do what I did. No smoke and mirrors. Just physics at work :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Anax: let me just add that there's actually another reason I haven't explained the maneuver. It has nothing to do with withholding info because I think I'm more skilled or something and that it would give up an advantage. In all honesty I think I suck :D.
It has everything to do with idea that there aren't any silver bullets in learning sound air combat maneuvers and tactics. This maneuver is kind of cool but really it has limited usage in air combat. Air combat learning isn't about trying to collect a bunch of trick maneuvers and I wouldn't want to promote that type of thinking at all!
No sir, I believe much more important and much more helpful for folks is to study and truly understand other key concepts like corner velocity, when to use nose-to-nose vs. nose-to-tail turns, creating separation for maneuver etc. The list goes on. People don't learn these things by collecting trick moves. There's no substitute. Instead people should spend time with the good folks Like Murdr, Widewing, TC, Spatula, et al that are part of the AH training corps who help people and day in and day out understand and apply these concepts.
Thanks for allowing me to get on my soap box a bit on the topic!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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shane you idiotic queef. why belittle the p51 when it is clearly one of the best planes in the game?
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I can ape widewing's maneuver without too much trouble offline. I can't do what dtango did there.
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who am i to argue? still... awesome move @ 2:26...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8&feature=related
:noid
Wow.. after seeing that movie my jaw dropped and i peed in my pants..
very cool..
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Great film....for some reason I really wanted that 109 pilot to survive and make a successful run for it.
In the end, I realize of course, he was much to dangerous to live. :(
Yea saw that film b4 and I think the 109 pilot deserved to live and not get ganged by the p51's. He definably fought for his life to the best of anyone's ability.
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Ran into this guy in the DA. Could not believe how well it could turn or preform Scissors.
He hit me at every merge and did not think was possible to do against a spit pilot.
At 51 seconds in his wing dips into the ground but he survives to finish me in a turn.
The 51B is over modeled???
http://download40.mediafire.com/fv2wmotzywzg/ejgntdknuwx/51_hoax.ahf
1: Use flaps to help you turn tighter.
2: Use throttle and rudder work to get tighter barrel roll.
3: Stop cutting your turn into his guns, try and chase his tail.
4: Also try to turn out of guns before pulling up into your next barrel roll.
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See Rule #10
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How about this from HC with the pony turning inside a 109 and the 109 stalling sooner in the vertical? I feel the 51 is a bit undermodeled myself. Doesn't keep me from flying it though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE)
Anecdotic.
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How about this from HC with the pony turning inside a 109 and the 109 stalling sooner in the vertical? I feel the 51 is a bit undermodeled myself. Doesn't keep me from flying it though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE)
Aside from digging up an old post...it's not under modeled now...just depends on which version of 109 you're up against.
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How about this from HC with the pony turning inside a 109 and the 109 stalling sooner in the vertical? I feel the 51 is a bit undermodeled myself. Doesn't keep me from flying it though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt8G3vxLmKE)
If you put a poor pilot in a 109 against an experienced pilot in a P51, the P51 pilot will win, every time. Especially at high altitudes where the performance gap closes.
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lol, Ive seen AH P38s do that a dime a dozen.