Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on October 17, 2000, 07:01:00 AM
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it takes only 1 ostwind to:
destroy HQ
or
destroy an entire city
or
destroy any factory
or
destroy an entire airbase
just 1
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 10-17-2000).]
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And? take a CHog and kill the Ostwind.
(hew hew hew (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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Ram, out
Erg/JG26 homepage (http://users3.50megs.com/staga/ram/acesindex.htm)
You think you know the REAL RAM?
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/dvv/asthanos.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Yeah...ain't it great....
Just think..1 Ostie can do all that...
Don't you just LOVE IT!!!!
Thanks for pointing that out.
Missile
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Citabria has actually broke my personal record in complaining by now...
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What sort of ammo did the Osty have?
Should it be this effective against buildings?
If it takes 20+k bombs just to flatten the radar building at HQ, how can an Osty with just 37mm rounds flatten it?
The damage model for Osty rounds (or all vehicles) against buildings should be changed!!
Targets like the Radar center at HQ, bunkers, etc I would assume to be HARDENED which I think would make them unscratchable with puny 37mm shells HE or AP.
SKurj
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Hi
Hi Citabria although I agree with all you say about the ostidweeb, I think you should stop wasting your time posting these things, Because most of the people dont care and unfortunately it doesnt seem the most important people care either.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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That's not true, Gunherz...I DO care (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Sabre, a.k.a. Rojo
(S-2, The Buccaneers)
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I agree Cit.
The osty should be relegated to a defensive weapon. The current modeling in AH does not handle it well as an offensive weapon.
AKDejaVu
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Ya, i agree, cita. I'm trying to figure out if i can limit my attendance to historical scenarios - i tend to think of the main arena is just a big training area now. Unfortunately, time zones for SEA are all wrt the east coast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Originally posted by Rojo:
That's not true, Gunherz...I DO care (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Pyro had some 37mm ammo at the con, and yes it would do alot of dammage to a building. I personaly think it should take 1 or 2 rounds of this stuff to explode a fuel tank and ammo bunker, but it takes ALOT. 1 of 37mm round to a support truss or beam in a hangar should take out that structural member lose 2 or 3 beams or trusses in a hangar and the whole thing will come down. Those rounds are HUGE the round itself would do the dammage without thinking about the explosives in it. Then it only takes a brave spit pilot to take out an ostwinds gun.
I think there is a good balance now, 2 nights in a row I've been in great land battles with all vehicles there. I haven't seen this much ground activity since they first gave us tanks. As for the ammo, there has to be that much for me. I get 1 hit for about every 200 rounds fired (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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Hi
Udie the 109 only has 60 rds of 30mm and I cant often hit with it, should it have more?
1000rds seems a pretty arbitrary number, I think the real ammo load was closer to 400 or 500. Plus it doesnt model the time it might take to put in a new strip of ammo after 10 or 12 rds as had to be done in RL, the way it is in here its a belt fed weapon.
Its behavior is just not realistic. And if it can destroy a HQ all by itself that just bizzare. You buff experts how many thousands of pounds are required to kill an HQ? Well divide that number by a thousand to see what the minimum explosive effect of a single 37mm must be in here. If it takes 10k to kill a HQ that means that each 37mm has a destructive effect equivant to 10 pounds of explosive. In other words the 37mm fires a 10 pound HE shell. The Panthers 75mm KwK42/L70 fired a 5.74kg HE shell which is 12.6 pounds. The numbers just dont add up if a single osti can kill the whole HQ. Sorry, it all just sucks too much!
HTC There are some real number comparisons for you fellas.
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-17-2000).]
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I believe it's 24K to kill the HQ Grunherz.
-SW
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Ostwind
Weight:25000kg
Crew:6 men
Engine:Maybach HL 120 TR 112 / 12-cylinder / 272hp
Speed:38km/h
Range: Road: 200km
Cross-Country: 130km
Capacity:470 liters
Width:2.95m
Height:3.00m
Armament: 37mm Flak 43 L/89
2 x 7.92mm MG
(1 x MG34 - hull)
(1 x MG 34/42 - carried inside)
Ammo:37mm - 1000 rounds
7.92mm - 1350 rounds
Armor (mm/angle):Front Turret: 25/37
Front Superstructure: 80/10
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Turret: 25/30
Side Superstructure: 30/0
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 25/30
Rear Superstructure: 20/11
Rear Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: open
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 12/85-90
Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 25/round
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO At least we can rest assured now that the Ostwind is accurate because we all know that the 37mm HE charge was at least 24 pounds! Yea Joy for all!!!
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1000rds it is I just checked somewhere new and it supports that number. But its still dont say nothing bout no 24 pound shell.
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Okay, this entire discussion/argument is going entirely the wrong way.
Here's what the problem is with the Ostwind: It's being used in the WRONG roles as it was used historically. Ostwinds were designed to cover armored columns during movement along the front lines. When they rolled up to an area of enemy activity, the ostwinds stayed back in wooded areas and would fire upon incoming aircraft well behind the area attacks were occuring in. They were vulnerable to american tanks and the panzers/Tiger tanks were used to attack the american armor. Same with the M16, it was to cover rear areas of a frontal assualt from aerial attacks. How often do you see someone roll out an M16 to shoot a hangar up? Or roll onto a field and begin shooting at fuel tanks? Never. Yet the Ostwind and M16 were both for the same roll: Defensive cover for moving armor columns. They were not designed for front line assaults laying down a hail of 37mm fire HORIZONTALLY at oncomming tanks or even troops is beyond absurd. LIkewise with firing onto hangars to take them down. Make hangars and other ground objects, including tanks, impervious to ostwind fire and VOILA we have a solution. Telling me "but but that's not right" well neither is using an ostwind to blow apart a field. That's why panzers are here. Ostwinds are for defense against AIR attacks only.
-SW
It's being used in the incorrect role
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AP round for 3,7cm Flak43 weighed .680kg
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 10-17-2000).]
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AKSeawulfe got it nailed down.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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If I was a german in ww2 and found myself in an ostwind on an enemy base I'd shoot it up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The MA is not anything near historical, except for the fact that we're flying ww2 airframes. Tactics will be formed around what assets we have in the arena. ANYTHING that fires 37mm rounds will be on my list of good OFFENSIVE weapons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) maybe if the Germans had used them offensively the war would have gone a different/worse direction.
This touches on one of my favorite parts of arena game play. The stratagies and tactics that are born out of these inviroments, I'm not talking about the gaming the game "tactics". There are plenty of ways to get rid of an ostwind, about 2 or 3 panzers on the fields will help (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) or just take out his hangar takes about 10 min to do, including flight time. Or get 2 planes to attack 1 flak from 2 diferent directions at the same time, that works for killing me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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And with that... Quake here we come!
-SW
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Sure has changed the game. It is definatly the most signifigant vehicle available(ground or air).
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Actually guys the various flakpanzers and M16 type things were used in ground attacks and troop supression. The M16 was used in this a lot. There was a AA Shereman concocted up by the Canadians called the Skink it mounted 4 20mm. I read this story of it often being used to flush out Germans holed up in some old house ruins, needless to say it worked really well. The Germans used their mobile vehicle mounted 37mm and 20mm on ground targets all the time. So they were used in ground attacks. The problem we have is its unrealistic use as the primary mode of attack on the bases. The only reason this is possible is because of its very poor damage modeling for an open topped vehicle, lack of gun crew wounding/killing, its relative invulnerability to the 40mm acks which are comporable weapons in range and effect, its invulnerability to close (non direct hit even with 2 1000 pounders) bomb strikes, its ability to withstand any gufire other than hispano or 75mm, the proximity of spawn areas to bases, lack of barrel overheat and loss of rof to change ammo strips- both of which increase its effectiveness, plus its very powerful shell load which is apparently at least the equivalent of 24,000 pounds of bombs.
The other important not here is that they were always used with heavy infantry support and never alone as their open top made it very vulnerable satchel charges, grenades, and other infantry attack. Otherwise the osti is very correctly modeled and used as we stand now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Find me sources and cite them that it was used in other rolls other than air defense. They were vulnerable to tanks more than they could hurt them, thus they were always held back when an assault was made. YOu couldn't very well fire that 37mm and keep moving, the gun fire would be way to inaccurate. Recoil, and dispersion also need to be introduced.
-SW
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First of all I never said anything about them fighting tanks. If tanks came they were done, which BTW isnt always the case in AH. However they were used in support of infantry if they needed some building cleaned up or in the case of M16 if there was a clump of trees suspected of hiding snipers. As for sources I read these accounts on pages 2, 4, 5, 56, 37, 76, and 237 of John Doe's "Big Book of Military Facts Youll need to win any argument on the AH BBS", first edition. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But seriously I saw film of Mobelwagens firing on ground targets and also the little Panzer 1 20mm flak conversions firing on ground targets. As for the Skink story it was in a military modeling magazine that did a kit conversion to make it. Really the point I have is that they did participate and fire on various light ground targets, but certainly not to the extent we see in here.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Please get rid of the new improved beta map and give us back the old map. The one that was in use when the Ostwind was introduced back on 9-8-00.
It just seems to me like most of the problems have been discussed on the UBB since the new improved beta terrain came out.
Fury
for grins I tried to look at the General discussion board for any obviously titled threads on vehicles or Ostwinds since it was introduced on 9-8. Only after the beta terrain was re-released was there any real discussion of a "problem" with Ostwinds (imho - although, I may have missed some)
Between 9-8 and the new beta terrain I found:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005337.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005337.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005303.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005303.html)
since the new beta terrain I found:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005742.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005742.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005819.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005819.html) (doesn't really count imho)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005920.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005920.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005955.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005955.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005960.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005960.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005978.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005978.html)
and this thread, ostwind vs. strat. The general tone of the recent posts seem to me to come from the terrain and not the Ostwind.
let's not forget
"Profanity Filter"
"Warp City" (during 1.04 downloads)
both are suddenly not a hot topic anymore. This too shall pass, get us another map please.
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 10-17-2000).]
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
Find me sources and cite them that it was used in other rolls other than air defense. They were vulnerable to tanks more than they could hurt them, thus they were always held back when an assault was made. YOu couldn't very well fire that 37mm and keep moving, the gun fire would be way to inaccurate. Recoil, and dispersion also need to be introduced.
-SW
Yo SW...the M-16 had this lil nick-name... The meat chopper.
I'll go find a specific source, but unfortunately almost any SP-AAA gun ever used in combat was used in direct fire as well, sometimes even more then in the AAA role.
Remember, AAA guns have high rates of fire...that means great suppressive fire keeping enemy tanks buttoned up and infantry pinned down while the tanks they are supporting are free to fire without much harresment because the enemy is busy try to cover them. It's called over-watch.
The US's M-15a1 halftrack mounted a 37mm AA gun. It was almost useless in the AAA role because of range/fire control issues, and was used from then on almost exclusively as a suppresion/assault gun. This lead to the developement of the M-16, and you'd better believe those four ma duces could pin down several platoons of infantry.
What you describe is the "ideal" situation for AAA guns. But war was hardly anything like ideal, and men used what they had where they were to fight. AAA guns were a large part of it.
Take for example the cupola AAMG's of the German and US tanks. Sure, they were intended for AAA use, but were hardly EVER used that way. It sure didn't stop the commander from popping out of his hatch and pinning down infantry from his cupola while his gunner laid the main gun down where he was firing.
BUT...the Ostwind's use in AH is lame. Only 40 some odd conversions. There's probably that many in use at any given time in AH. AAA guns only had to fire in short bursts at aircraft, because needless to say they didn't stay in range for very long. This allowed enough cooling times that the barrels didn't have to be changed. In the infantry suppression role, they ALWAYS had either infantry or armor support of some kind, that allowed for barrel changes and transferring ammo from the hull to the gun turrent.
AH doesn't have infantry support, and armor is hardly ever coordinated with the Ostwind.
Sure the 37mm gun is a big shell and a powerful weapon, but against concrete enforeced bunkers it might sink in, but not very likely. I suppose they could keep at it like a jack hammer but that would still take forever.
If nothing else, strengthin the 75L48 Pak on the Panzer. It takes 3 hits to kill a fuel or ammo bunker, and 20 some odd hits to kill a hanger. Pretty well balanced for game play's sake, but not when compared to the Ostwind.
- Jig
PS if anyone has SP:WAW I have a few choice scenarios where 20 M-60's go after 90 Ostwinds. Guess who always loses? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Fun watching all those Osties burn!
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What I meant was they weren't used to demolish buildings like they are in AH. Here they are used as fast firing Panzers(Ostwinds). I admit, M16s CAN and DID lay waste to infantry units. I never said they didn't. I said the Ostwind didn't.. that's because it was rarely ON the front line. It was more of an escort to the front line or to the next fire fight for the tanks.
-SW
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We are more or less in agreement I think, the main point being ostis didnt do in RL what they do here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Jig is right. There are a lot of stories from the war about US and German AAA units putting up a hell of a fight when cornered by enemy ground units.
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Hi
Plus the ground fire aspect of Flakpanzers was fully accounted for in the design of the next model, the Kugelblitz. It had a fully enclosed turret with small doors on the sides of the 2 30mm that opened up to allow air targeting, within these doors were even smaller circular sliding panels which were expressly designed for use when firing at ground targets. But to all the ostidweebs out there I must make this point clear, you guys are playing QUAKE whan you do the things you do as very little of it is in any way comparable to what took place in real life WW2.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Originally posted by funked:
Jig is right. There are a lot of stories from the war about US and German AAA units putting up a hell of a fight when cornered by enemy ground units.
Leveling a base offensively is on the opposite side of putting up one helluva fight when cornered.
Which is what my entire argument is about. It's being used incorrectly.
-SW
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I can't disagree with some of the observation here. The 37mm falls between the normal aircraft weapons and the larger ordnance types and the mesh between the two groups does seem amiss. It's something I'll have to look into further before the next version.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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All i can say is.. Thanks Pyro
SKurj
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Maybe if there was a way to limit Ostwind spawn points to hangars only, and not remote points. That would pretty much limit the Ostwind to defense only.
Fury
(I do not code games)
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but Fury, the Ostwind is sort of an escort for Panzers. I think they should be allowed to launch with panzers to cover them on their attacks from air.. but when they can be used as an offensive weapon(ie: just a group of flaks straffing down hangars), that's when it gets on the rediculous side.
-SW
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Hi
WOW Thanks Pyro!
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Pyro:
Thanks man! Another reason to say "HTC rules!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Here is a quite personal story to me, about how effective AAA weapons can be to infantry.
In 1968, my Uncle was a airframe mechanic at the main US airbase in Saigon. I don't know the correct spelling but its pronounced "Ton-Sin-nute".
During the infamous Tet offensive in 68 most of the airbase was overun by the NVA following a rocket and mortar bombardment. Now remember that alot of the guys there were airforce personnel, not combat marines or Army rangers.
He said that they had to pull back to one end of the runway and rally around a quad .50 AAA emplacement (just like the M16), when the NVA started using human wave attacks to finish off the defenders.
That Quad .50 emplacement, broke the back of the attack, inflicting extremely heavy casulties on the enemy.
He said it was scariest, and most sickening thing he has ever seen. A pure death machine. But he was DAMN glad it was there, or he would be dead today.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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While I'll agree that the ost's shell is too powerful, I gotta laugh at all the "it's unrealistic behavior" savants, Sure it is, so's a 190 escorting a B17, so's a spitfire flying wing with a Nik, so's the entire armor force for all sides consisting of 1 model of german tank. Did someone here invent the concept of "applied reality"? you know, it's unrealistic if I don't like it?
So I guess we should all just sit in the tower waiting for the version that teleports us back into WWII, right? People are playing a game, ok maybe you're not, but some are, and they will do whatever the game allows, complaining about technical issues is fine, if something's not right it needs to be addressed, but going on about a gameplay issue (ooo, I said game 3 times, where's my nomex?) is a waste of time, until you pony up to pay people's CC bill, you can't really tell them not to do what AH allows them to do. No matter what your personal delusions may tell you.
(Take this for what it is, and reserve the bile, I've gotten over being offended by personal attacks from folks who don't know me personally)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Just make the darn thing easier to kill. At least be able to wound the operator as they are in an open cockpit when firing this thing. If death was easier, they'd be deployed less. Don't know the programming but I'd think any shot in the vicinity of the open cockpit (top) should result in a wounded operator who quickly bleeds to death. Imagine the ricochets in that thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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Man I can't beleive you guys.
Ground units finally have something they can use that is actually effective against a base AND can defend itself and you guys whine.
I finally get something on the ground that I can get into and say "I actually have a chance to make it to a base" and you guys want to yank it or change it cause it's not being used historcally.
PUH-LEEZE!!
In the MA what IS being used historically?
If you guys are good enough and pay attention Ostwinds would never get to a base.
GRUNHERZ:ostidweebs... cute! What AC do fly? Hmm? Is it one of the so called Uber-AC? let me check ...yup N1k... thot so.
What version of Quake are you playing by the way?
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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HI
*ostidweebs* Yes I think its pretty clever too, Thx. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I gotta run now tho Ill respond in more detail later.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Firstly, I've enjoyed the beta-map. Having plenty of targets to dive-bomb has made the game better, IMO.
Secondly, the flak pz is formidable, especially if you have to attack it from the air on your own. But it just takes another player to distract it while you dive bomb it in a tiffy. A couple of 500 llb eggs doe the trick, I find.
If the model is going to be changed however, I'd ask for the flakpz to made more vulnerable to cannon or machine gun fire from above. That uncovered gun platform sure looks vulnerable...
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I don't know where you guys think that strafing the turret out of comission is hard to do currently. Its not.
In fact, most of my Ostie missions end after someone has strafed me with MG's or light cannons and totally disabled the gunner/gun, with the rest of the vehicle perfectly unharmed. Then I .ef and end the mission, with a ditch.
The reason most of you don't realize this (unless you drive the Ostie much yourself) is that yes, you strafed out the gunner, but the gunner blew you into little bits on the same pass, and your cartwheeling into terra firma without a wing.
Think about it. Effective Range of 37mm is greater than effective range of .50's or 20mm.
It all comes down to who shot the straightest in the gun duel.
The turret on the Ostwind is quite vulnerable to MG fire.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Dowding:
If the model is going to be changed however, I'd ask for the flakpz to made more vulnerable to cannon or machine gun fire from above. That uncovered gun platform sure looks vulnerable...
I'd agree, but once you make the gun too vulnerable, well than no one would be in one anymore,and field captures would go way up, do you guys see the tough job HTC has doing a 'balancing act' when they introduce something new??? At least we have the option of using something called 'strategy' to eliminate any nuances...ie. Don't launch from that field where OST is camped out, taking out VH's, upping a rear field with bombs to kill it, etc. etc.
USE STRAT TO DEAL WITH YOUR PROBLEMS, its obvious that game play balance is VERY tough to do, and to make everyone happy IS impossible.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Here is a quite personal story to me, about how effective AAA weapons can be to infantry.
In 1968, my Uncle was a airframe mechanic at the main US airbase in Saigon. I don't know the correct spelling but its pronounced "Ton-Sin-nute".
During the infamous Tet offensive in 68 most of the airbase was overun by the NVA following a rocket and mortar bombardment. Now remember that alot of the guys there were airforce personnel, not combat marines or Army rangers.
He said that they had to pull back to one end of the runway and rally around a quad .50 AAA emplacement (just like the M16), when the NVA started using human wave attacks to finish off the defenders.
That Quad .50 emplacement, broke the back of the attack, inflicting extremely heavy casulties on the enemy.
He said it was scariest, and most sickening thing he has ever seen. A pure death machine. But he was DAMN glad it was there, or he would be dead today.
During Nevada Eagle we used a trailer mounted Quad-50. Nothin' better to clear a jungle line of snipers. The crew often loaded tracers every 3 rounds instead of every 5...quite the light show at night (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Lars
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The Ostwind should be able to protect Panzers and M-3s at spawn points.
It's ability to hose buildings is a bit great though. As far as killing ack goes, I have killed ack with an M-3, beyond the acks range. Osty should be able to do the same.
Gunners should also be killable and woundable from vertical fighter attack.
eskimo
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I tried to address everything, but seems people only saw what they wanted (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Key point: We have no infantry (other then troops, easy to kill with anything since they march like soldier-mcnuggets.)
AAA has it's repective use in both roles.
If the 37mm Flak is right, then the 75mm Pak 48 is wrong. If the Pak 48 is right, then the 37mm Flak is wrong.
They make bigger guns for a reason when it come to the ground war.
I said it before and I'll say it again...the US M-19 "Duster" ...double 40mm pom-pom style self-proppelled ack (On the M-18 chassy...extremely fast when it needs to be)
The first perk armor in AH!
- Jig
Btw I've gotten to fire off lives in the US quad trailer mount before (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ostwind takes big buildings down easier than PZ-IVh...
This should be fixed for PZ-IVh...
I think the problem lies there how AH system counts damage on the buildings.
It counts hits into building as one and same spot, where ever you fire and therefore does not give the same bonus as it would with planse where blast effect of one hit makes more effect.
Ie. against planes, if you hit with one 1 .50 caliber, it does not have big blast effect, but when you hit with 20mm or 30mm, it has a blast effect that might even effect on nearby parts some more or some less.
But when you'll shoot the building, it does not count the blast effect of invidual hit into that ONE spot.
So, it counts hits more like bullets would have some certain amount of damage points they cause.
Ie. .50 caliber is 1 points, 20mm is 3 points, 30mm is 6 points, 37mm is 10 points and 75mm is 25 points..
but 37mm can unload much more points into the building than 75mm in a shorter period of time.
But..... if we would think about real life, what would one 75mm hit do for the spot it hits against 37mm, it would be quite big difference, with its bigger blast radius.
So.. try get some sense of that, thats what I figure to make ostie better field scrapper than IV H. (and range has no matter.. same power)
HTC should model kinetics and invidual hits blast effect on buildings instead of having certain amount of damage caused by each direct hit.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
I don't know where you guys think that strafing the turret out of comission is hard to do currently. Its not.
In fact, most of my Ostie missions end after someone has strafed me with MG's or light cannons and totally disabled the gunner/gun, with the rest of the vehicle perfectly unharmed. Then I .ef and end the mission, with a ditch.
The reason most of you don't realize this (unless you drive the Ostie much yourself) is that yes, you strafed out the gunner, but the gunner blew you into little bits on the same pass, and your cartwheeling into terra firma without a wing.
Think about it. Effective Range of 37mm is greater than effective range of .50's or 20mm.
It all comes down to who shot the straightest in the gun duel.
The turret on the Ostwind is quite vulnerable to MG fire.
Not always true. I can make enough passes on armour in the Typhoon (first one dropping bombs, subsequent ones using cannon) to have to land and rearm (sometimes 3 times) before I get careless and get hit. And it can take multiple pases with quad 20mm (and I use a mostly vertical, barrel-rolling approach) to do any significant damage to an Ostwind.
In fact it's often more effective to use the same approach you would use on a panzer, low and from the rear (making sure someone else is distracting it) and just blow the whole damn thing up.
On a plus point this profusion of ground vehicles has improved my dive bombing no end (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I just found evidence that the Ostwind was a copy of an FW-190. I read on the "Onion" that in 1943 a Wehrmacht engineeerr saw the guns on the FW-190 and said "Holy shieSS, mount that bad bellybutton baby on a tracked undercarriage and you got a Weinerschnitazle beater!". So they got rid of the wings, modified the fuselage till it was essentially gone, re worked the tail so it look like an engine radiator and modified the undercarriage to so the oleos and ruber tires were tanks tracks. Oh! And they used slightly different guns. Now it might take a little leap of logic, but any loyal UberAlles type can "see" without ANY shadow of a doubt that the FW-190 is in that design!! You'd have to be blind not to!!
-Westy
(trying to hijack this topic cause?? Just because (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
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During the Korean war the U.S.M.C used the M-16 with the 4 .50Cal machine guns almost exclusively as an anti personnel weapon.
It was quite effective at destroying Human Wave attacks launched by the North Korean/Chinese Army.
Also, the first serious offensive the Poles managed to launch against the Germans at the start of World War Two was broken up by a German AAA unit that turned their 88s against the advancing Polish Infantry.
The Germans used the 88's for everything in WWII, more than just anti-aircraft, and definetly as Anti Armor.
When the U.S. Entered the war and put the 105 one a track, it started the first serious threat to the 88's.
After all the reading I have done, it seems that the U.S. loved to call in Artillery as soon as they met the slightest resistance. In Stephen Ambrose's "Citizen Soldier" he interviews a German Soldier who said that when the Germans were advancing and they met resistance, the knew not to call for Artillery support, they wouldn't get it, it was for pre-assualt bombardments, or use against fixed defences, or to try and break up an assault.
He complained that if the U.S. Infantry came upon a Hitler Youth with a pocket knife, they called for artillery.
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"Looks Mean as Hell! Clare Lee Chenault.
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/06212.gif)
When?
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Geez...whats next? Are we gonna lobby to remove bombers from the lineup too because of the "ackstars" out there that spawn and use a B-26 as a defensive AA gun on the ground? I swear, everytime you guys dont get things that go your way you whine about it forever. I am just wondering what the next whine will be about if HTC gives in on this one and weakens the Ostie for ya.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Ostwind takes big buildings down easier than PZ-IVh...
This should be fixed for PZ-IVh...
But when you'll shoot the building, it does not count the blast effect of invidual hit into that ONE spot.
HTC should model kinetics and invidual hits blast effect on buildings instead of having certain amount of damage caused by each direct hit.
I agree. It doesn't seem like there is a big advantage for the HE rounds over the APs or the Ostwind's 37mm. A HE round detonating inside a small buildikng would do extreme damage when compared to greater numbers of 37mm API rounds. And also consider the impact force required to detonate the rounds. AP rounds usually go through non-hardened targets without causing much more damage than an entry and exit hole.
Even when you use the HE vs the AP in the Panzer, you don't really see the difference between the two. They both make the same impact explosion and sound.
I know it won't be for a while, but it would be nice to see the AP rounds just punch through something, and the HE rounds actually look like they are making a big explosion like HE rounds would do.
Midnight
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 10-31-2000).]
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I drop torpedo's on the town seems to be more successful. :aok
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Please explain why you bumped a ten year old thread?
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:rofl
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Please explain why you bumped a ten year old thread?
So we all can see Batman!
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/NecroBumpBatman.jpg)
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Cannabis (Cán-na-bis) is a genus of flowering plants that includes three putative species, Cannabis sativa,[1] Cannabis indica,[1] and Cannabis ruderalis. These three taxa are indigenous to Central Asia, and South Asia.[2] Cannabis has long been used for fibre (hemp), for medicinal purposes, and as a recreational drug. Industrial hemp products are made from Cannabis plants selected to produce an abundance of fiber and minimal levels of THC (Δ9- tetrahydrocannabinol), a psychoactive molecule that produces the "high" associated with marijuana. The psychoactive product consists of dried flowers and leaves of plants selected to produce high levels of THC. Various extracts including hashish and hash oil are also produced from the plant.[3]
:banana:
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IN
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IN
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INteresting what he said!!!
IN
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IN
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You guys really like posting "IN" don't you. Must be a circle jerk reflex lol.
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You guys really like posting "IN" don't you. Must be a circle jerk reflex lol.
Glad to see you joined the "circle jerk". First up for you is Hajo!
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:rofl
Glad to see you joined the "circle jerk". First up for you is Hajo!
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:rofl
:rofl
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Bad boy Chappy, don't DO that!
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:rofl
:rofl
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OUT?
:joystick:
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(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/50da941337.jpg) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
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OUT?
:joystick:
Actually , when you apply some thought to the problem what you really want to do is to get the hell OUT before the lock, right?
OUT :aok
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This is why we can't have nice things. IN.
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.dot disable Chappy's search button. :old:
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Actually , when you apply some thought to the problem what you really want to do is to get the hell OUT before the lock, right?
OUT :aok
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/gaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy.jpg)
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Actually , when you apply some thought to the problem what you really want to do is to get the hell OUT before the lock, right?
OUT :aok
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Just out of curiosity is this still technically possible?
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Just out of curiosity is this still technically possible?
the towns yes
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Just out of curiosity is this still technically possible?
Depends on what "this" is referring to. ;)
For all practical means, all the strats are out of reach of any GV for the most part since the redesign of the strat system, as no GV spawns are leading to them anymore. And so is the HQ, as on the few maps where a VBase is spawning to a HQ, the base itself is uncapturable. Also one Ostwind would not be enough to kill HQ anymore, and neither is an Ostwind or Wirbelwind capable of killing a town on it's own.
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I managed to sink CV with ostie, I didn't think it was possible but apparently it is :rock